PipeChat Digest #1449 - Sunday, June 11, 2000
 
Re: Humongus Allen organs: Why?
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Fw: Pipe Organ on a passenger Ship
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Run out of Air
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
Re: Organs for large venues/was Humongus Allen
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Run out of Air
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: polyphony
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
pitch sagging
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: running out of air
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: running out of air
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Tape editing
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca>
Re: Tape editing
  by "Brent Johnson" <bmjohns@fgi.net>
Re: pitch sagging
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: pitch sagging
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: pitch sagging
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com>
Re: reed organs
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Humongus Allen organs: Why? From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:41:23 -0400   > Look around. Where I live, developers are building humongous > ostentatious Mc mansions by the acre and they sell faster than they > can build them. The roads are clogged with SUVs that get bigger each > model year. It is just human nature.   Do you live in Northern Virginia? Sounds like it! Except that they're building these McMansions on 1/4 acre lots. I guess an advantage is that there isn't much grass to mow. ;)   Seriously, like you, I truely hope that some real organ works of art come = out of the boom but I'm afraid that the crowd with money is interested in = other things. Now if _I_ should stike it rich.....   Cheers, TommyLee    
(back) Subject: Fw: Pipe Organ on a passenger Ship From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:41:57 -0500   OUCH!! Don't let *my* street organ hear that! (haha)   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2000 1:23 PM Subject: Re: Pipe Organ on a passenger Ship     > At 01:36 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >I hope your folks got to hear the organ. My mother just got back from = a > >cruise on the Zaandam and did not get to hear the organ! She waited and > >waited... The pictures show one manual and no pedal; there is a = lovely > >chair rather than a bench. I have been unable to find specs.<snip> > > Well...from experience...."If it's Dutch, it ain't much!" I have = visions > of an Amsterdam street organ.... > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Run out of Air From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:47:36 EDT   Carlo.....   Most likely not "out of air" meaning silent, but for sure on many = instruments the test that you describe would produce a noticeable pitch sag.   I indeed second the comment about the Austin system as one of the most = stable.   Bill  
(back) Subject: Re: Organs for large venues/was Humongus Allen From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:02:07 +0800   Excuse me but since when did St Peter's in Rome hold 55000 people? I can't = believe that! We see St Peter's every Christmas Eve on television. and if it holds = more than 5000 I'l hop to Mecca in football boots. 5000 would be stretching it = even on a good day! Bob Elms.   Alan Freed wrote:   > > From: RonSeverin@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Organs for large venues/was Humongus Allen > > > > Try Yamasuccro, in Africa. It's a Catholic Basilica which is shaped = like St. > > Peter's > > in Rome, but five times larger. St. Peters on a good day holds 55,000 = people, > > so Yamasuccro about 270,000 on a good day. Allen built for them around = ten > > years ago. There are 7 1/2 square acres of glass in the building!!! = What > > acoustics!? > > Excuse my skepticism, Ron, but that's a bit much. I know the place is = big. > But I doubt that it holds 270,000 at the same TIME, on a good day or a = bad > one (more than 2.5 times the Los Angeles Coliseum?). But I'm really = tipped > off by that glass measurement. Nowhere is area measured in "square = acres," > which makes all the figures suspicious. > > Who would care to define a "metrical foot"? (Sort of a tricky question, = but > not a trick question.) > > Alan > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Run out of Air From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:55:25   At 10:35 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >That would depend on whether it is a baroque tracker with unstable winding,= =20 >or a large Austin with a fabulous Universal Windchest !<snip>   Amen to THAT! One of the best contributions of 20th century American organbuilding was the advent of copious, steady wind...something that seems to have gotten lost with the "retro" fads now in the spotlight. Austin, of course, has the market cornered on this with their "Universal Windchest"=AE. The drawback to Austin wind, of course, is that certain stops need to be "channeled" just into order to be shaken by a common tremulant! Skinner was another advocate of well-regulated, steady wind, and even used and advocated Hope-Jones' sprung regulators, probably his greatest contribution to organ building.   Hearing an organ "wheeze" and "cough" due to unstable wind is hardly musical to most ears, and is inexcusable in this day and age...unless, we're talking about one of those "period" things.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:29:19   At 11:18 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >There are no wolf intervals in Valotti or Kellner, and only small "pups" = in >Kirnberger and Werckmeister. Meantone and Pythagorean, and may one or = two >others are the only ones with visciuos wolves!!<snip>   ....all of which reminds me of a project I was going to undertake awhile back, but never finished...documenting "Hammondberger" temperament!   Yes, folks, the formerly ubiquitous tonewheeled Hammond organ has a temperament other than ET, also! This came about as a compromise than for any musical reason; there are only so many gear ratios one can use off of = a given mainshaft speed that'll get those wheels, all of which have a common diameter, turning at approximately the right speed.   "Ham-burger" temperament deviates .7 cents from ET at most, but is just enough to make things a little "sour" here and there, and enough to drive good piano tuners nuts. Now...to compare "Ham-burger" to some of these other "neuveux" temperaments...could be they're close to "Ham-burger"!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: polyphony From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 21:48:41   At 10:25 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >What you say intrigues me. Recording studios have been playing around with= =20 >clipping for years. The ear either doesn't hear it or ignores it. Many of the=20 >Columbia >recordings of organs E. Power Biggs played were put together using clipping in<snip>   Whoops. Hold on, you've got a mismatch in terms, there. What you're describing is "editing". "Clipping" is the phenomena of either an analogous electrical signal being driven past the voltage (or current, if you prefer) maxima of an active stage, or in digital recording, being driven past the point where the system has any further 'numerics' to describe that amplitude.   Back in the analog days, tape editing was quite an art. Many things could be done with demagnetized razor blade (or scissors, if you were good at it) and an Edit-All block that the listener, even the most seasoned, would be hard pressed to identify. Using full track tape, it was possible to provide a perfect crossfade simply by making a very long cut. Most edits were at 45=B0. Two or three track stereo masters (showing my age here) coul= d be edited craftily also (as many of Biggs' were) by using a "Vee" splice, two cuts at 45=B0 meeting in the center of the tape. This was easy with =BD= " tape, not so easy but doable with =BC". Successful "slash" and "vee" edits required tape speeds of 15 IPS and above to be truly transparent.   Digital recording does away with all this, as editing is now done from a keyboard at an editing console, with the PCM bitstream in memory. When the desired edit is finished, it is simply rewritten to tape. Thus, analog tape editing "tricks" of the '50s and later are getting to be a lost art. George Wright did a lot of his own editing, as well as multi-tracking. One can easily tell that a lot of what George did on record would require three or more hands, had it not been for multitrack machines! Buddy Cole, in his own studio with the "WurliMorton", never overdubbed or multitracked...whatever you heard on the album was how he played it live.   DeserTBoB        
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:08:13 EDT   Hey Bruce:   I cheat and play dflat in D, Is that permissable? Nobody knows but the = soprano with a hernia!! pant pant huff huff huff wag wag wag!   RS  
(back) Subject: pitch sagging From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:01:15 -0400   I played an 2-manual organ a few years ago, and whenever a stop was added = or taken off of the SWELL, there was a slight fluctuation, almost like the tremulant was added and then removed right away. Is this common? How can this be fixed. BTW, the organ was built by a company called "Les Orgues O. Jacques de Montreal". They merged with "Fran=E7ois Caron Inc." and = "Guilbeault Therien"...........   Carlo  
(back) Subject: Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:14:22 EDT   Hey Bruce:   When old M.P. was around Moller used better and thicker wood for chests = and top boards than anybody else. Why do some people pick on the poor man? Not you, but just about everybody else. It took quite a bit to make'em = warp too. They'd still play sort of with the town under water. Basses had thicker = pipe walls too.   Just a plug for the grand old man!   RS  
(back) Subject: Re: running out of air From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:28:29 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Pietroniro <concert_organist@hotmail.com>   Subject: running out of air     > I was just thinking.....how many nots would have to be played on a pipe > organ for it to run out of air, if at all possible? For instance, if you > drew every stop, and played all 61 notes on every manual and all 32 pedals, > at the same time, would the organ 'run out of air'? How much air does = the > average pipe organ blowers produce?   Carlo and list,   Back in the thirties the church where I was a choirboy had an organ that = was hand blown by one of the choirboys, - usually the boy who was least well behaved during the previous Sunday's services!   It was always our pleasure to let the wind pressure down during the = sermon, and bring it up again whilst the organist would play the first line or two of the post-sermon hymn. Usually there was enough wind, but on occasion = he might be playing "Onward Christian Soldiers" or "For All the Saints", = which both had a full organ introduction, and the wind pressure would sag, = making the organ go flat!   There would be a plea from the organist, "Blow it, you little bugger, blow it. - Give me some wind!"   Eventually, they installed an electric blower, and I became Head Boy! I don't remember if the two occurrences were connected!   So much for the traditionalists and their organs, - I doubt that even they would have survived the wrath of Dr. Boulter, our organist!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: running out of air From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:25:04 +0800   Not enough for an all note chord on my organ anyway, but then would anyone = want to play every note on an organ in one chord? Suffering sassafras! What a racket! Bob E..   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > I was just thinking.....how many nots would have to be played on a pipe > organ for it to run out of air, if at all possible? For instance, if you > drew every stop, and played all 61 notes on every manual and all 32 = pedals, > at the same time, would the organ 'run out of air'? How much air does = the > average pipe organ blowers produce? > > Carlo > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Tape editing From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@post.queensu.ca> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 01:43:43 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net>       > At 10:25 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >What you say intrigues me. Recording studios have been playing around with > >clipping for years. The ear either doesn't hear it or ignores it. Many= of > the > >Columbia > >recordings of organs E. Power Biggs played were put together using > clipping in<snip> > > Back in the analog days, tape editing was quite an art. Many things co= uld > be done with demagnetized razor blade (or scissors, if you were good at it) > and an Edit-All block that the listener, even the most seasoned, would = be > hard pressed to identify. Using full track tape, it was possible to > provide a perfect crossfade simply by making a very long cut. Most edi= ts > were at 45=B0. Two or three track stereo masters (showing my age here) could > be edited craftily also (as many of Biggs' were) by using a "Vee" splic= e, > two cuts at 45=B0 meeting in the center of the tape. This was easy wit= h =BD" > tape, not so easy but doable with =BC". Successful "slash" and "vee" e= dits > required tape speeds of 15 IPS and above to be truly transparent.   All of which brings to mind the day when the CFRC FM Classics recording t= eam went off to make a tape recording of one of the local choirs singing Bach= 's B Minor Mass. In our confusion at the concert we forgot to put on new ta= pes for the second half, and were left scrambling when the conductor got thin= gs going!   On our return to the studio, we found that we had missed about three minu= tes of the first number after the intermission. However, I quickly found an = LP with a good start, and dubbed that on to another piece of tape, and, usin= g the old Editor Block, "cut and pasted" the replacement section into the tape, and no-one was any the wiser!   They were the "good old days"!   Bob Conway      
(back) Subject: Re: Tape editing From: "Brent Johnson" <bmjohns@fgi.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 00:59:59 -0500   > > be edited craftily also (as many of Biggs' were) by using a "Vee" splice, > > two cuts at 45=B0 meeting in the center of the tape. This was easy w= ith =BD" > > tape, not so easy but doable with =BC". Successful "slash" and "vee" edits > > required tape speeds of 15 IPS and above to be truly transparent. > They were the "good old days"! > > Bob Conway   Well, Bob, maybe it will make you happy to know that before I was ever allowed to go near a digital mixing console, or turn on a computer, we we= re taught how to work with tape first. I guess that made us appreciate the advances that much more. Brent Johnson The Organ Web Ring http://www.organwebring.com brent@organwebring.com 310, no, wait, 311 members, no, 312.... well, There's a lot of members!    
(back) Subject: Re: pitch sagging From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 02:15:23 EDT   Dear Carlo:   Did they use flexhaust all over the place? It's not smooth and it causes cavitations very much like a tremolo. Also your curtain valve on the reservoir may be stuck, or the reservoir may be installed on it's side rather than lying down. All = of these things contribute to cavitation and the tremolo effect of unsteady wind. = Have your organ tech look for these things. Even a piece of paper sucked into the blower may have lodged in the curtain valve. A look see and you'll know for sure.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:04:41   At 11:15 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 6/10/00 10:45:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 >desertbob@rglobal.net writes: > >> Besides, good M=F6llers are getting hard to find. >> =20 >Umm.... since around 1948, I believe.... ;-)<snip>   End of the Whitelegg Era...exactly.   dB  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch sagging From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:41:28   At 01:01 AM 6/11/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I played an 2-manual organ a few years ago, and whenever a stop was added = or >taken off of the SWELL, there was a slight fluctuation, almost like the >tremulant was added and then removed right away. Is this common?<snip>   Shouldn't be!   >BTW, the organ was built by a company called "Les Orgues O. >Jacques de Montreal".<snip>   Someone, somewhere, had some really ripe stories about ol' "Jacques" and his "work". Sounds like you got stuck with one of them!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:37:29   At 11:01 PM 6/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >At least the organ >at Holy Trinity is built with tierce-layout chests so that there is some >pitch locking<snip>   Nuh uh. I don't think so.   Tierce layout chests, as with diatonic layouts, were designed but for one reason...to PREVENT pitch pull of pipes of directly adjacent notes. There's no way a flue tuned a major third away from another one is going = to "draw" the other into (or out of) tune. To get a glimpse of why this is, one has to simply look at the math.   Looking at the harmonic series, the FIRST incident of consonance of these pipes' harmonics trains is at the tierce of the lower pipe...the fifth harmonic...with the fourth harmonic of the upper pitched pipe. This is close, but not on, the "perfect third" ratio of 5/4, hence the fifth and fourth harmonics are close to being the same frequency, but do beat. = Thus, at such a ratio, the exact coincidence of forward-falling windsheets of these two pipes in only once in approximately five cycles...hardly enough to "pull" one pipe into tune with the other. That's why tierce layouts = are used, to PREVENT inferrence of one pipe with another. Seb Gluck did a = nice write-up one the advantages of tierce chest layouts over on that *other* list awhile back. Check it out.   I've played organs laid out in such a fashion, and never recall hearing = it, and I have a pretty keen ear for beating harmonics...they ALWAYS beat in a major third, when tuned to ET. The only time they DON'T beat is when = tuned to the dreaded Mean Tone, with its perfect thirds and somewhat narrow fifths. One nice things about the new digitorgs, however, is the ability to "flip" from one termperament to another in seconds, thus providing an immediate basis for comparison. As our earlier experimenter in Kellner found out, there are occassions where such temperaments are indeed an improvement! Just don't try anything in F# Major...especially if it has any doubleflats in it!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: The Allen at Bellevue Baptist, Memphis From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 23:50:32   At 01:14 AM 6/11/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Hey Bruce: > >When old M.P. was around Moller used better and thicker wood for chests and >top boards than anybody else.<snip>   M=F6ller got a bad rap from the thousands of "junk" installations they did i= n the '60s and '70s. Built in true mass-production style, they were routinely "cheated" on wind, and materials weren't up to the task. Voicing was scary at times, too, with mixtures that would part ones hair. Many M=F6llers of this era were simply thrown in by contractor/agents, with no finishing or voicing whatsoever. Of course, many of their "showpiece" installations got a lot of factory care lavished on them. Much earlier, M=F6ller also got a black eye early in the century with their fussy "bar and membrane" chests, which today, many find to be unrepairable. The Whitelegg era at M=F6ller was its best time, and while some may call their voicing "wooley", I found them to be well-built instruments and quite reliable. One thing was clear..NObody built more church organs than they did, for quite awhile!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch sagging From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 03:02:03 -0400   there are lots of organs from "O. Jacques" around Montreal. I've played 6 = of them, and they're all 2-manual models. Is that all he built? Anyway, they all the same problem with pitch sagging, and the reed stops are really = LOUD. Another thing.....the tremulants are very irregular, even after being visited by a technician. "Fran=E7ois Caron" does all the servicing for = them now. They're not the best organs in the world, but they were on the inexpensive side.   Carlo  
(back) Subject: Re: reed organs From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 04:23:04 -0400   I guess this might be a little off-topic for this list. :)   > I said "most", not all (grin).   Caught that after I fired off my reply. <G>   > I have played a one-manual "Liszt" model Mason & Hamlin with the > "Bass Sustain" coupler (that's probably not what they called it on > the stop-knob, but that's what it did), and it was indeed a very > robust sound ... it was the "choir organ" in a Jesuit church in > Cincinnati seating upwards of 1000 (!).   That's the "pedal point". I believe you could capture several notes with = it, sort of making it precursor to the chord organ ;)   > I've never seen one with the French numbers on the stop-knobs,   When I first started futzing around with mine, I didn't know what the = numbers were. I knew that they couldn't be foot indicators since they only went = from 1 to 3. Mine doesn't have foot indications, though. I need to double = check with my friend who has a Lizst model, but I fairly certain that it has the =   French numbers on most of the stop knobs. Mine only has them on about = half of them.   > though ... this one had ordinary reed-organ stop names, and I THOUGHT > I remembered the stops dividing at "f", as "most" Esteys do.   There was wide variation in this from company to company. Probably = depended greatly on whether it was considered "just" a parlour organ or something = more serious. ;)   > There WAS a three-manual Mason & Hamlin advertised awhile back by one > of the reed organ concerns in New England, but it wasn't (I think) > the model you perhaps have in mind ... it was foot-pumped, and didn't > have a pedal-board.   There are several M&H 3mp pictures on the web. One is at the Fisk museum website. Another is at the website of Carl Shannon, but it's = video-streamer and a bit slow on a dial-up connection.   http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/9491/organs1.html   I've run across a couple more pictures elsewhere. Someday I'd love to own =   one!   Mannborg of Germany and Mustel of France also created 3mp models. Mustel = has one of the better reputations as far as I know. Companies in England and Germany were still producing reed organs up to the '70's but I have no = idea if anyone is still making them now. As far as I know, they all died off in = the 70's, even in the Netherlands.   And you are right about the difference between European harmoniums vs = American reed organs. In the US, negative pressure was preferred while in Europe, = they used positive pressure. Since I have yet to hear a European harmonium, I can't make any comments on the difference in sound.   Cheers, TommyLee