PipeChat Digest #1455 - Tuesday, June 13, 2000
 
Re: Beethoven on ET, egad!
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
A "Hammond" for tracker-backers, was Kellner
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
RE: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin)
  by "Bert Atwood" <atwoody@ispchannel.com>
Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin)
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Looking for Organ Time in New Jersey
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Fw: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Skinner strings
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Fw: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Beethoven on ET, egad! From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:42:27 PDT     >If all kesy sound the same I wonder why the great composers bothered to >write in different keys? Sorry, I can't agree with you.   Because they weren't writing in equal temperament. That's the WHOLE POINT =   OF THIS DISCUSSION. We don't know how great composers expected it to = sound because they were writing for different tunings. We won't have a clue how =   Beethoven wanted it to sound if we play his piano concertos in Renaissance =   meantone. We won't have much more of a clue how Beethoven wanted it to sound if we play his piano concertos in ET. And with all the supposed Beethoven scholars running around claiming he wrote for ET we might as = well be wearing earmuffs in Symphony Hall. But if we try Beethoven on a couple period temperaments we might get a = good sense of it.   Even the illustrious CHOPIN who wrote stuff in some pretty wild keys and modulated around the circle of 5ths like a crazed animal had his piano = tuned to Villotti or one of the other relatively even well-temperaments, not ET.   I won't debate that perheps you notice different moods from different ET keys, I am of course not listening between your ears. But I would bet if you hit the Kellner button on your Casio keyboard and played some of your favorite Bb pieces you'd be even happier with them.   regards,   DG   (trying to sign up more members to DTETS)   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:57:12   At 06:20 PM 6/12/2000 PDT, you wrote: > >Since every key sounds exactly the same in ET (namely, bad) what's the = point >of ever composing in any key besides C major in the modern age? In the >1800's it made sense with temperament with varying key colors, now it is >just dumb.<snip>   Obviously, Mr. Goggin and the other kid haven't much experience with the repertoire; otherwise they'd know better. Oh well...a little education = can be a dangerous thing!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: A "Hammond" for tracker-backers, was Kellner From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:40:53   At 09:26 AM 6/13/2000 +0800, you wrote: >Ron, let me know when your membership reaches 100. Until then I'm going >to have a snooze. Take your time!I think you'll need time and plenty of >it!<schnip>   ::::snoozing along with Bob Elms..."wake me when it's over"::::   Of interest to all "tracker-backers" who insist on screwball temperaments on fixed intonation instruments is the Cahill Telharmonium of 1904 (actually, some say 1897, but my information says the first successful one started commercial service in '04). The Telharmonium, of course, is the first electric musical instrument, wherein tones are derived from geared = AC alternators tuned to the various frequencies of the scale, along with others providing "harmonics". If this sounds like the Hammond Organ, you get a cookie...Laurens Hammond stole Cahill's ideas (just as he tried to steal the synchronous AC "clock" motor, but got caught) and made a commercial hit with the immensely more portable and useful Hammond Model A in 1935. The Telharmonium took up a good part of a two story building.   Specifically, the Telharmonium will delight the detuned "tracker-backers", in that Cahill had NO tolerance at all for Equal Temperament, or even = these compromises offered today! Instead, Cahill set about "inventing" a whole new manual...36 notes per octave! Thus, any music played in any key could be justly intoned, which not only sated Cahills desire for just = intonation, but also made sure that his dissonant "harmonics" were exactly in tune! Hammond cared nothing about this, and his musical lackey, John Hanert, = told him that something approaching Equal Temperament (although within the mathematical confines of same-diametered tonewheels and whole-numbered = gear ratios) was "close enough", as were the out-of-temper "harmonics". Hanert was right, and Hammond made billions with the Hammond Organ. Cahill only built three Telharmoniums, usually couldn't find musicians to play his = just intonation manuals, and failed totally.   History is a good teacher...eh?   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:54:00   At 09:28 AM 6/13/2000 +0800, you wrote: >Maybe I'm some sort of freak but I don't hear all keys sounding the same >with Equal Temperament. I find that Db major and Gb have a richness of >their own which is probably why Moody and Sankey wrote so much of their >evangelical songs in those keys. They are emotional. I also prefer the >sound of Ab major to A major. I hear each key as having a different >characteristic. I wouldn't want it to be any different.<snip>   What our unlearned collegues have neglected to address is that the *frequency range* of each key has about as much impact on the ear of the listener as the temperament, sometimes moreso in the keys furthest from = the hacked-to-death mode of C. Thus, Ab, deviating in its root a whopping minor 7th about the root of C, has an entirely different, etheral "feel" = to the listener. Bb is known to many, when rooted a step and half below C, = is said to have a somber, grave quality. Well, of course, it does! It is lower in actual pitch!   Composers had reasons for composing in the keys they did. The performer who "cheats" (as an organ prof once termed it) is not, in my opinion, much of a "performer", but rather an "approximater". Most that I've seen pull these types of shenanigans usually haven't spent enough hours at the piano or manuals to properly LEARN the manipulations of all the available keys, and thus, dismiss them as being "too hard". To them I say, get out the Hanon and the Czerny, practice for four hours a day for six months, THEN come back and we'll discuss the matter!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: RE: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) From: "Bert Atwood" <atwoody@ispchannel.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:19:12 -0700   Bob (Scarborough), Re: Bob Elms' comments -   I must agree with Monsieur Elms. I have long noted a difference in the ET keys - and I don't think it can be dismissed as, "Bb is known to many, = when rooted a step and half below C, is said to have a somber, grave quality." I play well in C, G, F, Bb, Eb, = Ab, Db, Gb and reasonable well in D, E, and A. I have the most difficulty = with B and the sharps (I know that they're the same as enharmonic flats but haven't had much experience reading them). To my ear, Eb is the most melodious - great for ballads, etc. It is followed closely by Ab, Gb, and Db. Immediately adjacent to Eb is E which to my ear is majestic - perfect for hymns and patriotic songs. It is followed closed by A, D and B (even though I have trouble with B). C, G, and F are best for C & W, Blues, = etc., although useful whenever one want to change keys for variety. D and A = also seem to work especially well for novelty numbers - Dizzy Fingers, Bumble Boogie, etc. - this may have something to do with fingering (I don't know = - but they do work) and they sound bright. -Bert-     > -----Original Message----- > Bob Scarborough > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 7:54 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) > > > At 09:28 AM 6/13/2000 +0800, you (Bob Elms) wrote:   > >Maybe I'm some sort of freak but I don't hear all keys sounding the = same > >with Equal Temperament. I find that Db major and Gb have a richness of > >their own which is probably why Moody and Sankey wrote so much of their > >evangelical songs in those keys. They are emotional. I also prefer the > >sound of Ab major to A major. I hear each key as having a different > >characteristic. I wouldn't want it to be any different.<snip> > > What our unlearned collegues have neglected to address is that the > *frequency range* of each key has about as much impact on the ear of the > listener as the temperament, sometimes moreso in the keys > furthest from the > hacked-to-death mode of C. Thus, Ab, deviating in its root a whopping > minor 7th about the root of C, has an entirely different, etheral > "feel" to > the listener. Bb is known to many, when rooted a step and half > below C, is > said to have a somber, grave quality. Well, of course, it does! It is > lower in actual pitch! > > Composers had reasons for composing in the keys they did. The performer > who "cheats" (as an organ prof once termed it) is not, in my opinion, = much > of a "performer", but rather an "approximater". Most that I've seen = pull > these types of shenanigans usually haven't spent enough hours at the = piano > or manuals to properly LEARN the manipulations of all the available = keys, > and thus, dismiss them as being "too hard". To them I say, get out the > Hanon and the Czerny, practice for four hours a day for six months, THEN > come back and we'll discuss the matter! > > DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:43:12 EDT   In a message dated 6/12/00 1:00:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   > Alright, already! It's a semantics issue among musicologists; has been = for > years. But....how "well" is well? Well done? Half baked? Enquiring > minds wanna know! Unfortunately, musicologists seem to be more interested in semantic issues =   rather than musical ones. Well, "well" is relative. Different temperaments work better in some organs than others. This is why there = are so many. And that is the beauty of it. All of the organs so tuned will = be unique in their own right.     Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 00:50:49 EDT   In a message dated 6/12/00 1:41:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonSeverin@aol.com writes:   > Once you've experienced the beauty of Kellner you never will or want to = go > back to something awful like ET! It plays modern music with equal cham, =   hymns are > to die for gorgeous. My congregation loved the new sound, so I've = created a > good monster. > Ron, Any chance you are familiar with the hymn, "I Love to Tell the Story" set = to the tune, "Hankey". It is a wonderful demonstration, and several members = of a congregation said it was particularly moving to them because of the way = the organ sounded. The hymn is in A-flat, however, has it progresses to the text, ..."because I know 'tis true..", the word "true" lands on a C-major chord. It is amazing!   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Looking for Organ Time in New Jersey From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:00:25 EDT   In a message dated 6/12/00 9:21:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = tomba@pobox.com writes:   > I'm being dragged screaming to my ma-in-law's 90th celebrations in > Denville, NJ. I'll be there eight days from June 15. I really need to = get > in some practice during that time... Sure.. Glad to help. Send me your music and I'll practice it for you! = ;-)     Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Fw: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:59:33 -0500   In the maze of the tuning debate, would pipe-scaling have anything to do with preferences? In re: Would small-scaled pipes sound better in one temperament vs another? -same would go for large-scaled pipes. I dunno- I'm just a transplanted hick from Chicago.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cremona502@cs.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner     > In a message dated 6/12/00 1:00:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > desertbob@rglobal.net writes: > > > Alright, already! It's a semantics issue among musicologists; has = been for > > years. But....how "well" is well? Well done? Half baked? = Enquiring > > minds wanna know! > Unfortunately, musicologists seem to be more interested in semantic = issues > rather than musical ones. Well, "well" is relative. Different > temperaments work better in some organs than others. This is why there are > so many. And that is the beauty of it. All of the organs so tuned = will be > unique in their own right. > > > Bruce > . . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles > Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com > HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Skinner strings From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:08:39 EDT   In a message dated 6/12/00 12:37:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Steskinner@aol.com writes:   > Would it be OK if I kept > the salicionals crated for when someone wanted to have all the strings sound > > the same again? BTW, this is a 103 rank organ. In thinking more about this, my recommendation is to use the organ as it = is. If the church has money to burn, get a nice little organ of your pleasure = for the chapel or the choir room or the fellowship hall. I think it would = be best to just leave the organ alone! (sorry)   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com HOWLING ACRES: http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ tuned to Kellner - Bruce Heaven! (Ron Severin) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:04:55   At 12:50 AM 6/13/2000 EDT, you wrote:   >set to the tune, "Hankey".<snip>   Ah, yes...didn't I hear that one on the South Park Christmas show a couple of years ago? <snarf snarf!>   dB  
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Pipe Organ tuned to Dr. Kellner From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:16:31   At 11:59 PM 6/12/2000 -0500, you wrote: >In the maze of the tuning debate, would pipe-scaling have anything to do >with preferences? In re: Would small-scaled pipes sound better in one >temperament vs another? -same would go for large-scaled pipes. >I dunno- I'm just a transplanted hick from Chicago.<snip>   Actually, yes, in theory, anyway. As slender scaled strings have a much greater harmonic content than do other flues, one would think them to be the most affected. Equal Temperament spreads the errors caused by "universal temperament" among all intervals, so everything's out of tune. Thus, the upper dissonant harmonics, actually even starting with the = third, and becoming more apparent as you go up through the tierce, the larigot, the flatted 21st, etc. will be "out of tune" with equivalent notes on the Equal Temperament scale. As the train of harmonics gets to the seventh, the errors of temperament to the justly-intoned dissonant harmonics = becomes even greater. What the "temperament flat earthers" DON'T tell you, however, is that these "partials", as they've been known as for eons, are STILL out of tune with these supposed "remedies" to the Equal Temperament problem! Some invervals will be closer to just temperament, others will = be actually further away! So, changing the temperament doesn't fix this problem, only changes it.   DeserTBoB