PipeChat Digest #1460 - Wednesday, June 14, 2000
 
God Walks the Dark Hills
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Jehovah's Witnesses
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Happy-Clappy
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!
  by "ldpatte@attglobal.net" <ldpatte@attglobal.net>
Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
Re: Happy-Clappy
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Flentrops [was Vassar "Kimball"...]
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!
  by "edward a mc callum" <edmack2@juno.com>
Re: running out of air
  by "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com>
Structural Organ Problems
  by "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com>
Re: Organ removal from Vassar college
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Crown Imperial
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: focused on God.
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Organ removal from Vassar college
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re: Crown Imperial
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re:Happy Clappy!
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
Time to move on Re: Happy Clappy!
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 


(back) Subject: God Walks the Dark Hills From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:35:30 EDT   This is a song made popular by the multi-award winning Queen of Gospel = Music, Vestal Goodman, known for carrying her trademark hanky. It was written by =   Andra Czarnikow, and is copyrighted by Caananland Music. Contrary to what =   was posted earlier, it's not a "rip-snortin'" Southern gospel = song.......it's fairly sedate rhythmically, not a foot-stomper. As one who is a = Pentecostal (Church of God, Cleveland, TN), this is one song that makes my church = stand up and shout and raise their hands while the soloist is singing it.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Jehovah's Witnesses From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:42:22 EDT   Being a Funeral Director, I get to see lots of interesting musical things = and a Jehovah's Witness funeral is one of them. The funeral home I work for buries 95% of the Witnesses in Charlotte, NC. I asked one of the = presiding elders about the music for their services, since they only use taped music = at the funerals. I was told that back in the early days, many of the Kingdom =   Halls had electronic organs or pianos, as well as choirs and soloists. As =   the organization grew worldwide, many of the smaller congregations didn't have the funds to have instruments of any kind. The church leaders in Brooklyn, NY (headquarters of the Watchtower Society) got together a professional orchestra (fully made up of Witnesses who are professional ochestra members worldwide) and made up a set of orchestrated = "Accompaniment Tracks" for use to lead the singing for all church gatherings. The elder = I spoke with told me that he and his wife love classical piano and organ = music, and for funerals, they love to have the organ played for the Prelude, and =   would prefer it over the tapes during the service, but it's some kind of Witness rubric to only use the tapes. No matter where you go in the = world, during a Witness service, you would sing along with the tapes. The hymnal = is the same in every country, the only difference being that it is translated =   into the language of the particular country.   Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Happy-Clappy From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:58:24 EDT   Dear List-- Unless you are involved in an evangelical church that does that praise = music, you don't know of what you speak. Praise music is not singing "Seek Ye First" or "Alleluia" two times through, and then sitting down. It's a = whole style of worship. Mainline Protestant churches don't understand what = praise music is, or how to do it sucessfully. There are literally thousands of songs that have been written, most of them based on scripture texts, = pulled directly out of the Bible. I'd like to know how many on this list know = who Don Moen, Ron Kenoly, Sion Alford, or Dennis Jernigan are. These are some = of the composers who are not only writing some of the most contemporary = songs, but they are also writing songs that have withstood the passing of a few years time. This style of music is a new phenomenon, and it has only been =   around for 10 years or so. The praise choruses of 20 years ago are not = the same animal. While the church where I am a member sings some of this = style of music (led mainly by piano, organ, brass section, and rhythm section) = we stick mainly with Southern gospel. So, unless contemporary Praise and Worship is what you know, don't go by things you hear about it....experience it for a while, not just once, and then issue your response. I'm sorry that these kinds of churches don't = use organs, because our Allen theatre organ blends in just fine with the band when we do this style. However, just because there's no organ doesn't = make it "wrong." God really doesn't care what instruments are used to praise = Him, just as long as the praise is focused on Him. So that's why it's ok for = some church to have a 12 rank tracker, and another church to have a 5 man. = Allen, and others to use and orchestra. God doesn't want mediocrity, He wants = the best we can give Him, whatever that may be.       Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy! From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 07:32:46 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 9:44 PM Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy!   > And who's talking about entertainment? The trad. service has a choir; = are you > going to be consistent and brand that entertainment too?   Well...the Catholic church apparantly has. I heard recently that they've pretty much squelched anything that isn't -directly- related to the = service. This includes anthems and voluntaries....did anybody else hear this?   >And voluntaries, are > they different because they are traditional? To see the air of reverence of > some of the clappy-happy worshipers to me puts it beyond doubt that they are > not there for entertainment but for worship of God. > Let's be consistent Ron.   Well I don't know about consistency, but let's at -least- try for tolerance....   -Rebekah      
(back) Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy! From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 20:04:02 +0800   That has not happpened in this country in some of the larger churches. = Most of the smaller churches never had choirs anyway but still sing hymns. I play = for a Saturday Mass at a Catholic church in this town. I play voluntaries, and a = choir has been raised at times for special occasions. I only help out at that = church. My main organ playing is elsewhere. Bob E.   Rebekah Ingram wrote:   > -> And who's talking about entertainment? The trad. service has a choir; = are > you > going to be consistent and brand that entertainment too? > > Well...the Catholic church apparantly has. I heard recently that they've > pretty much squelched anything that isn't -directly- related to the = service. > This includes anthems and voluntaries....did anybody else hear this? > > >And voluntaries, are > > > -Rebekah    
(back) Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy! From: "ldpatte@attglobal.net" <ldpatte@attglobal.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:32:42 -0400       Bob Scarborough wrote:   > > pRaZe bAnD music is a function of far-right learning "fundie" churches, = and > has spread also to "mainstreamers", who are trying anything to drag = people > through the door, after suffering years of losses, both in attrition and = to > the "fundies". It's also interesting to note that such barns featuring > pRaZe/Happy Clappy also are the ones that disdain the organ as a "symbol = or > corrpution", have the women wearing floor-length dresses, and push the > boundary of church-state separation by working with church-provided = funds > on far-right political candidates' campaigns.   <snip>   Two points here, Bob:   a) It's amazing how you can paint so many people with the same brush. Do = you get out much? You seem to have all the answers. Do you ever ask any questions?   b) You refer to these churches you are talking about as, "barns". Isn't = it amazing that Jesus was literally, "born in a barn".   Myself, I go to a church that sings the traditional hymns, and which uses = the organ for accompaniment. From time to time, the Praise Choruses are sung = with piano, organ, guitar, brass, woodwind - whoever or whatever happens to be there. A nice balance! The old hymns are great, but some of the other = stuff is great too! I've never read any scripture anywhere that proclaims, "Thou = shalt praise Me with the Organ and the Organ only!" Let's not be too = close-minded, folks.   Dave C. London, Ont.      
(back) Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy! From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:41:21 EDT     Greetings,   Ah, you have hit upon part of the problem here. For the happy clappys it has NEVER been about tolerance or understanding. = It has always been about total control and dominance of the church music = scene.   The CCM groups tend to be small (but very militant) groups with huge = mouths capable of complaining to the powers that be very loudly and unendingly. Once gaining a foothold, they immediately start pontificating that "traditional" music is ,"Bad, outdated, not for the people, etc," =3D HAS = TO GO. The Pipe Organ and Choir are visible signs of "Traditionalism" and = they must go as well. OR belittled so as to make them seem silly and trite in = the eyes of the congregation.   Unfortunately, whenever a decent DofM comes along and promotes traditional =   music- they are usually at war with the militant CCMers who usually have = the powers that be "In their pockets" so in all to many cases the new DofM = lasts a year or two and is fired or simple gives up.   It is sad indeed that (it seems) most church music programs are either: = Done by incompetent musicians (those who couldn't play their way out of a paper =   sack), Militant CCMers (who will not allow any other music in "their" sanctimonious presence), or Musical Whores (who play what ever the congregation likes - as long as they get a pay check).   No please don't flame me - I know there are good musicians and good Music Directors on this list and else where. However, during your summers - = take a look around your area and visit some other churches, you may be shocked = at what you see.   All the Best,   Erik   > >What is sad about this whole issue is that those who wish to remain >conservative are forced to endure the "happy clappy". I have yet to >understand why people who want this type of service will go into a more >conservative congregation and then scream to try and change it. If you >want >happy clappy, go to a denomination that has been doing it for years and >leave us more conservative people alone. >   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Happy-Clappy From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:52:42 -0400   > From: RMB10@aol.com > Subject: Happy-Clappy > > Praise music is not singing "Seek Ye > First" or "Alleluia" two times through, and then sitting down. It's a = whole > style of worship. Mainline Protestant churches don't understand what = praise > music is, or how to do it sucessfully.   Monty:   I agree with the basic thrust of your entire post, especially the last = (and most important) half of the second paragraph.   But I object to the "terminological larceny" that occurs in the lines I've quoted above. If you move to Ogden or Salt Lake City, your cheerful neighbors will welcome you cordially, and soon ask, "Are you a member of = the church?" And you may innocently say, "Yes," not knowing that in the local vernacular "the church" means something different from what it did in = Kansas or New Jersey.   I think that "Mainline Protestant churches" DO understand what praise = music is, and understood it quite well 300 years ago. They may indeed be = totally lacking in any understanding of what some people are now calling "praise music," but stealing the term from the church at large (after all, God's people knew what praise music was 2500 years ago!) and then claiming we don't understand it.   Seems like an ethical lapse of some sort.   Alan Freed St. Luke's Church Manhattan                  
(back) Subject: Re: Flentrops [was Vassar "Kimball"...] From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:49:13 -0500     >The Duke University chapel has a Flentrop that is very versatile and that = I >used to enjoy listening to whenever I had the spare time or needed a = place to >escape to when I graded papers. ;) Most of the people I knew who played = it >said they loved it. It has romantic stops specifically to handle French >romantic music as well, so that it would not be just a "one trick pony". = At >the last concert I attended there only a couple of years ago, one of the >pieces was Widor's 5th and it sounded MAGNIFICENT on that instrument. >Worship >service in the chapel was inspiring enough to get even a heathen like me = into >church regularly. "snip"   >Btw, Duke Chapel also has an AEolian organ (pre Skinner, per Duke's web = page >although I often heard it refered to as an AEolian-Skinner) that was in >disrepute and disrepair, with it being anyone's guess as to which stops = would >be working at any given time or whether they would drop out during play. = The >Aeolian has been refurbished in the last couple of years and I understand >that >it now has more of it's former glory. "snip"   And to tie all this together...   David Arcus, organist at Duke, has what is IMHO a nice CD out named "The organs at Duke Chapel"   David Arcus was born and raised in Poughkeepsie (where Vassar is) and played the big chapel organ (NOT THE ONE FOR SALE!) when his High School graduation was held there. He also did a concert with my flutist-wife = (long ago) on a Sch#%@er electronic. But he probably does not want to remember that!   John V      
(back) Subject: Re: Why failure is built into Happy Clappy! From: "edward a mc callum" <edmack2@juno.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:46:42 -0400   put this under notes and asides:   after 30 years of Vatican 2, most parishes in my area, (central florida) are a musical mess--!! fewer people going to mass and all that goes with a flourishing parish life, is in a downward curve. in some areas, to many, they are closing the doors. happy-clappy has not worked. quite the contrary--new traditional, spell that "Tridentine Rite" are opening up in great numbers. it really is quite a relief to attend these churches. i'm sure glad i kept my old "missal". As an organist who long ago gave up church work,it is a relief to be at the bench again. ed mc callum, melbourne-florida ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Re: running out of air From: "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:22:57 EDT   My home church has a 1921 C.E. Morey organ that was converted from T-P to E-P sometime in it's life. When the church built a new sanctuary, they = kept the organ and had it "rebuilt" into the new "smaller" chamber. The blower =   is a Ventus from Laukhuff of Germany. When you play full organ, you can hear the pressure drop on the last full three chords of the BIG hymns (the =   A-men 's).   It has two reservoirs, no static reservoir, and plenty of windleaks in = both the windlines and chests. I was told that the only thing to save this = organ is to rebuild the chests to smaller dimensions with a electric = tracker-like action (similar to Austin), get all pipework on a smaller scale, build = some new windlines and get a static reservoir. That's ONLY to get the pipes to work properly and not be too loud. (a 47 scale 8' Open Diapason in a contemporary acoustically dead, SMALL room!!!!!!!) Forget about the = Console and C/A!!!!   Jason Comet     >From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <concert_organist@hotmail.com> >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: "Pipe Chat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: running out of air >Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:31:04 -0400 > >I was just thinking.....how many nots would have to be played on a pipe >organ for it to run out of air, if at all possible? For instance, if you >drew every stop, and played all 61 notes on every manual and all 32 = pedals, >at the same time, would the organ 'run out of air'? How much air does the >average pipe organ blowers produce? > >Carlo > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Structural Organ Problems From: "Jason Comet" <diaphone64@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 14:47:17 EDT   I am head organist at Emmanual Congregational Church. It is one of these "converted" church (Classical to "happy-clappy"). The congregation loves the organ, but the pastors want a band. (Talk about going head to head = with a bull!) While in the back balcony looking sstraigt across the nave at the front gallery (choir loft), I noticed the facade looked strange. It looked like =   it was settling into the center. I went into the organ and looked to the facade supports. The two sides are supported by two block that are = attaced to the wall which is attaced with with two three screws into the wall and two screws into the facade. There are four of these. One on the mid-section and one at the top. The upper ones are not assecible for inspection. However, the bottom block's wall screws are dangerous = looking.   The middle screw is straight. the bottom screw is pulling to the right, = the top screw is pulling to the left. The facade screws: The top one is starting to bend, the bottom screw hole is completely stripped out. The screw has forced the wood to crack and the screw is not even holding anything!!!.   It's very quite difficult to describe. I will take pictures and see if I can send them or put them on a web-page.   This is the same problem with the blocks holding the organ onto the wall. =   The floor is noticably slopped. The entire organ riks and tips from side = to side and front to back.   I have had several Trustees look at it and an engineer from the = congregation who is the choir director's son-in-law. They all said it was pretty bad.   They asked me what to do. I told them that the whole organ would hvae to come out, be put SOMEWHERE! and the entire choirloft rebuilt.   It is SSSOOO bad that I an scared to even turn on the blower.   What else can I do!!!!!???????     H E L P ! ! ! ! ! ! !   THanks, Jason Comet ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ removal from Vassar college From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:25:34 PDT   >Mixtures are the "crowning glory" to good organ tone,   I doubt it. They are what impart the squeaky droney air to organ music. Yes, they add brightness and glitteryness, but I am just as happy with a bright 8'-4'-2'-1' conbination. 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time when you want a dramatic glisten, use your mixture.     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Crown Imperial From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:26:58 PDT     >As any English or French organist knows, the REEDS are the crowning glory =   >of >the organ (grin).   You are right!!!!   Even if they are real reeds, not reedless reeds.     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: focused on God. From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:32:37 PDT     >God really doesn't care what instruments are used to praise Him, >just as long as the praise is focused on Him.   Sounds to me like your god has something of a self-esteem problem. And = I'd guess he's fairly lonely as well.   DG   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ removal from Vassar college From: <KurtvonS@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:55:29 EDT   In a message dated 6/14/00 2:26:50 PM Central Daylight Time, dave_hat@hotmail.com writes:   << I doubt it. They are what impart the squeaky droney air to organ music. Yes, they add brightness and glitteryness, but I am just as happy with a bright 8'-4'-2'-1' conbination. >> Proper mixture work binds tones together, it doesn't sit on top of the = rest of the sound.  
(back) Subject: Re: Crown Imperial From: <KurtvonS@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 15:56:42 EDT   In a message dated 6/14/00 2:28:17 PM Central Daylight Time, dave_hat@hotmail.com writes:   << Even if they are real reeds, not reedless reeds. >> I see you're at your most unusual theoretical approaches again; ignoring centuries of practical experience....  
(back) Subject: Re:Happy Clappy! From: <JKVDP@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:08:26 EDT   In a message dated 00-06-14 09:42:52 EDT, the_maitre@hotmail.com writes:   >For the happy clappys it has NEVER been about tolerance or understanding. = It >has always been about total control and dominance of the church music = scene. > >The CCM groups tend to be small (but very militant) groups with huge = mouths >capable of complaining to the powers that be very loudly and unendingly. >Once gaining a foothold, they immediately start pontificating that >"traditional" music is ,"Bad, outdated, not for the people, etc,"   I'm sorry that maitre has run into this type of people. My experience is that the "contemporary" backers really mean no ill, but so LOVE what they = are doing that they have no idea that not everyone shares their enthusiasm. Really, wouldn't many of us be tempted to promote our own favorite music = in the same way they promote theirs? These people are usually nice kids = lacking in maturity and wisdom coupled with well meaning older individuals who = will do anything possible to keep their children in church.   I work in a church with a 9:30 traditional service and an 11 a.m. "Contemporary" service except in the summer (beginning this Sunday) when = the two are "blended" - our daughter says "fused" might be a better word. Last =   summer I saw the contemporary people take over more and more music of the service so I decided I would time both portions. In early summer an = elder expressed his concern about the dominance of contemporary music. I was = able to tell him that I agreed with him and had noted that traditional = accounted for only 30% of the service music but over 60% of the congregation chose = the traditional service! Things changed immediately! Jerry in Seattle  
(back) Subject: Time to move on Re: Happy Clappy! From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 13:22:00 -0700   I'm not the list owner, but it seems to me this thread has been done to = death a couple of times, both here and elsewhere.   Those of us like myself who are unalterably opposed to CCM on theological = and liturgical grounds will not be moved. I turned down a much better job than = my present one to avoid CCM; there will NEVER, EVER be CCM at St. Matthew's, = either in my lifetime, or after. That's who we are as a parish, and as a = denomination: traditionalists. If you want to respond to THAT, please do so privately = (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   JKVDP@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 00-06-14 09:42:52 EDT, the_maitre@hotmail.com writes: > > >For the happy clappys it has NEVER been about tolerance or = understanding. It > >has always been about total control and dominance of the church music = scene. > > > >The CCM groups tend to be small (but very militant) groups with huge = mouths > >capable of complaining to the powers that be very loudly and = unendingly. > >Once gaining a foothold, they immediately start pontificating that > >"traditional" music is ,"Bad, outdated, not for the people, etc," > > I'm sorry that maitre has run into this type of people. My experience = is > that the "contemporary" backers really mean no ill, but so LOVE what = they are > doing that they have no idea that not everyone shares their enthusiasm. > Really, wouldn't many of us be tempted to promote our own favorite = music in > the same way they promote theirs? These people are usually nice kids = lacking > in maturity and wisdom coupled with well meaning older individuals who = will > do anything possible to keep their children in church. > > I work in a church with a 9:30 traditional service and an 11 a.m. > "Contemporary" service except in the summer (beginning this Sunday) when = the > two are "blended" - our daughter says "fused" might be a better word. = Last > summer I saw the contemporary people take over more and more music of = the > service so I decided I would time both portions. In early summer an = elder > expressed his concern about the dominance of contemporary music. I was = able > to tell him that I agreed with him and had noted that traditional = accounted > for only 30% of the service music but over 60% of the congregation chose = the > traditional service! Things changed immediately! > > Jerry in Seattle > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org