PipeChat Digest #1318 - Wednesday, March 22, 2000
 
Re: Pipes and Bytes
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Pipes and Bytes
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Pipes & Bytes
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Pipes and Bytes
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will 	probably be 
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will  	probably be
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Pipes & Bytes
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Pipes & Bytes
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Fw: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will	probably be l
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Pipes and Bytes
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Listen here! Pipes & Bytes
  by "David Enlow" <davenlow@hotmail.com>
Re: Listen here! Pipes & Bytes
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 



(back) Subject: Re: Pipes and Bytes From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 14:28:02   At 04:24 PM 3/21/2000 -0500, you wrote: Fortunately my side won the battle and the church has purchased a >real piano. > Hurrah! Reason indeed prevails in this situation. "Faking" a piano takes a lot more tonal "trickery" than faking an organ, with its predictable tonality and articulation. Digital pianos rob the player of tactile control over hammer acceleration and infinate dynamic control, much, as *some* people on this list would say, as an EP or DE organ robs the organ of the tactile control of the pallet. Well, that's another arguement for another time!   Some "keyboards" out there are absolutely dreadful, especially those in favor with the ubiquitous "pRaZe bAnDz" out there spewing forth CCM froth. Even a quality upright (oxymoron?) beats them hands down every time in the hands of a trained pianist. Alas, the overall quality of piano products = is in steep decline, as production is "outsourced" by corporate goons to = Korea and the like. Word has it that Baldwin, the last American piano factor, (jab in ribs to Brewse) is ready to fold, its demise being hastened by = Wall Street naysayers that say their management is "too traditional". Some of their production has already been "outsourced" to the Third World, but I believe their grands are still made stateside.   Also, has anyone seen the new Yamaha-ha-ha "grand" pinaner with the cast metal major parts and an LCD screen that runs Win98? It reeks of oriental gimcrackery, but not an ort of true piano is to be seen anywhere, IMHO. Although I know some that have seen this expensive toy, I don't believe I've heard any reports as to its tonality.   DeserTBoB ....now wheezing with asthma from his weed pulling foray.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes and Bytes From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:28:06 -0600   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > Word has it that Baldwin, the last American piano factor, > (jab in ribs to Brewse) is ready to fold,   What of the Yamaha Pianos built in Georga, US?    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes & Bytes From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 15:21:48   At 02:27 PM 3/21/2000 -0800, you wrote: >Most of these posts have been "black or white"...<snipping majorly> >Rather than taking this backdoor approach to the electronic/pipes >argument, perhaps a better, more productive discussion for us would be >"How do we foster more of an interest in the organ as a worship >instrument ?"   Thank you for making many points that I would have, had Vesuvius not erupted! However, I'd at to your discussion question, "How do we get the organ out of church and back into the public ear again?"   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes and Bytes From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:49:06 EST   What a truly invigorating and stimulating intelectual discussion this has been. You're a doo doo head ! I know you are but what am I! No you are! Infinity! This reminds me of when I asked Ed Gress ( my employer at the = time ) what went on at APOBA meetings. "Well they talk about profit margins, = trade boxcar loads of cold rolled zinc - boring stuff like that" " Don't they = ever talk about tonal concepts?" "Good grief no there would be fist fights!" As = I watched the Pipes and Bytes discussion go on I was reminded of the heated discussions that went on in the sixties over tracker vs electric action. = As I type this I'm listening to one of those goofy radio shows that have people = do silly things for prizes. Tonight they have two men slapping each other in = the face. The one that quits first loses. They started slowly and in good = humor but after an hour or so it got ugly. So; I have waited till the dust settled to express my opinion. When I went = to music school I was, more or less, an electronic music minor. I studied = with Abagail Hoffman, Carlos Rauch and Paul Steinberg. I have been building loudspeakers for 27 years and ( more or less as a hobby ) work sound for a =   rock band. I decided at age 12 that I wanted to be an organbuilder. 24 = years later I incorporated my organ company. Using my extensive knowledge of electronic synthesis and sound reproduction I have developed my own unique =   style of organbuilding that incorporates no electronic voices. No = speakers. No amplifiers. Why? That's just what I do. I don't like to mix media. To = me the organ is a wind instrument. My good friends at Innovative Techniques = have built splendid instruments with mixed media. That's what they do. We have traded ideas, parts etc. for years but never has there been a harsh word. = I respect what they do and they respect what we do. However; getting back to = my own opinion and musical tastes, I am a bit of a conundrum. I grew up listening to E. Power Biggs records and fell on to the tracker band wagon. =   Yet I build electric action organs. I have worked for four different organ =   companies and have worked on thousands of organs all up and down the east coast and from Louisiana to Minnesota. Yet I have only heard one ot two = pipe organs that I truly disliked. When it comes to electronic organs, however, =   the one thing that bothers me the most is that they missed the opportunity = to become their own instrument. Instead they imitated the pipe organ. I could = go on and on about this but I don't have that much free time ( I have a = Mixture IV waiting for me to voice ). Suffice to say I prefer Pure ( italics) = things when it comes to musical instruments. Like some people prefer single malt scotch wiskey. I would truly love to develop a real time performance = digital keyboard instrument with multiple manuals and pedal that does not flat out =   imitate the organ. We have the technology. Hope-Jones and Cavaille-Coll = were truly blessed - build it and they will come. Perhaps I should get a = hyphen. Stay tuned, I have my own pipe organ bomb shell to drop. And if you don't like it I'll call you a nasty name, throw you over the top rope and smash = you over the head with a folding chair! C'mon C'mon I'll take you with ten = ranks tied behind my back!   Alan B.  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will probably be long) From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:53:38 EST   In a message dated 3/21/00 2:01:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, tmbovard@arkansas.net writes:   > There are a goodly number of independent organ builders (tracker, > >mainly!!) who build for the love of it and make a living. I feel I must add here, that all one needs to do is take a tour of the = Wicks factory, or the Austin factory, or probably others, and you will find more =   people who build for the love of it. I think many of us in the organ related bizzes are in it for the love of it.... it sure as heck ain't for = the money!   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will probably be long) From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 23:57:40 EST   In a message dated 3/21/00 2:32:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   > ...as IF I'm going to reply. Although I could speak volumes about some = of > these "clarifications", I shant, as I have weeds to pull in the yard, = and a > transmission needing a fluid and filter change. Ta ta! Hah! See... if your car had tracker action you wouldn't need = transmission fluid!   BBBWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ HA!   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes & Bytes From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:06:42 EST   In a message dated 3/21/00 5:28:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, NickGTV@webtv.net writes:   > Most of these posts have been "black or white"...either it's ok to > augment pipes w/electronics (OR augment electronics w/pipes). It seems > like practicality has left this argument. Ah! An opportunity to share my favourite Hepburn remark! During an interview with Barbara Walters, the comment was made: Ms. Hepburn, I've always admired your ability to know what to do in any situation. Just how = do you do it? Katharine Hepburn replied: It's simple! You have only TWO choices: Right =   and Wrong! "But," replied Walters, "You must consider the gray areas." Hepburn looked Walters straight in the face and said: "No dear, you're = WRONG!"   Just because something is practical, doesn't make it right! ;-)   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes & Bytes From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:11:28 EST   In a message dated 3/21/00 7:16:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   > Thank you for making many points that I would have, had Vesuvius not > erupted! However, I'd at to your discussion question, "How do we get = the > organ out of church and back into the public ear again?" Hey! I didn't erupt! ;0) Put a nice tracker organ in an unchurch room, toss in a salary, and I'M THERE!     Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS  
(back) Subject: Fw: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will probably be long) From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:23:55 -0500   I'm in this business because I love the music and the instruments- be they church, theatre, street organs, or Flotenuhren.   I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either.   Rick     ----- Original Message ----- From: <Cremona502@cs.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Pipes, Bytes, Sense, Apologies, and etcetera (this will probably be long)     > In a message dated 3/21/00 2:01:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tmbovard@arkansas.net writes: > > > There are a goodly number of independent organ builders (tracker, > > >mainly!!) who build for the love of it and make a living. > I feel I must add here, that all one needs to do is take a tour of the Wicks > factory, or the Austin factory, or probably others, and you will find = more > people who build for the love of it. I think many of us in the organ > related bizzes are in it for the love of it.... it sure as heck ain't = for the > money! > > Bruce > . . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles > Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com > http://community.webtv.net/cremona84000/ALLHAILTHEPOWERand > http://community.webtv.net/hydrant/TheBeaglesNest > http://community.webtv.net/bruco/STORIESINGLASS > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes and Bytes From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 22:15:59   At 11:49 PM 3/21/2000 EST, you wrote: >I would truly love to develop a real time performance digital >keyboard instrument with multiple manuals and pedal that does not flat = out imitate the organ.<snip>   Perhaps you'd like my 3 manual Hammond HBCERT-3100! Teehehehehe!   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Listen here! Pipes & Bytes From: "David Enlow" <davenlow@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 01:33:02 -0500   "How do we get the organ out of church and back into the public ear = again?" > Put a nice tracker organ in an unchurch room, toss in a salary, and I'M > THERE!   How about getting the people back in the church? There's a different argument, but I think the proper one.   I don't think anyone is arguing that digital organs are superior or even equal. Any mental patient with a grade three education should know: electronic organs or organ stops are nowhere near adequacy, nor shall they ever be.   With other words: digital organs are shit. For churches that can afford only them, they'll just have to do; just like cheap plastic altar furnishings, geriatric choirs, cinder block walls, praise bands, 'modern' stained glass, drunken caretakers, and the like. This is a question of economics, not taste. I hate to be crude in presumed mixed company, but here goes: he who can afford to, does, he who cannot afford to, = condescends. What a mind-numbing thread this is.   The church in the twentieth century is in the midst of a torrid love = affair with shit. Visit your local novus ordo or Alternative Service parish for details.   W. David Enlow 24 Dunedin Drive Toronto M8X 2K5  
(back) Subject: Re: Listen here! Pipes & Bytes From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:55:59   At 01:33 AM 3/22/2000 -0500, someone wrote:   >How about getting the people back in the church? There's a different >argument, but I think the proper one.<snip>   Ain't gonna happen. Although it's at times "big business" at its worst, religion is no longer a "growth industry", unless it's in a "tilt-up" with a "pRaZe bAnD". The sad thing is that these snake shows are getting their audiences from mainline churches. But this isn't important here, IMHO.   What is important is to concern ourselves about the organ as an instrument of power and breadth to serve the musical public in secular venues. In the last century and the early part of this passing one, organs in municipal auditoriums, concert halls and theaters were common. Now, they are a rarity. Look at Los Angeles, for but one example. The Philharmonic Auditorium, built in 1901, gained a fine, large Austin of nice orchestral quality. In 1964, this venue was replaced by the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion of the new Los Angeles County Music Center. No organ at all, nor was there ever a thought given to one. Now, however, the Philharmonic Orchestra is slated to get a new home in the planned Disney Concert Hall, and a large, versatile instrument is contemplated. The limited repertoire written for organ and orchestra will once again be able to be performed, hopefully to public acclamation. Nearby Shrine Auditorium sports a 1920's M=F6ller, and the Pasadena Civic has the Reggie Foort "travelling" M=F6ller, and there are others somewhat less remarkable. This does give some hope for the organ's future...if these and many others are used for public entertainment. Sadly, the two mentioned organs are hardly heard.   However, there is still a public perception that the organ is a "church" instrument. Although it serves in that capacity, it's my opinion that a new era of composition of quality literature for the organ will result if new and existing ones are simply used more in public performance. It's sad to see the power and beauty of the organ limited to Sunday drudgery. It should be accessible to all of musical bent, in fine acoustical surroudings, with public support. As organists and builders, I believe our mindset must be changed towards this ideal, and promote the organ thusly. Otherwise, I fear that it will be doomed, like many of the churches that it now occupies.   Therefore, I believe it it critical that organs such as the world's largest in Atlantic City, and the next largest in Philadelphia, as well as so many others, be preserved and played often. Fortunately, the Wanamaker organ is in daily use, and shows how commerce and the organ can compliment each other. Sadly, the moribund Midmer-Losh at ACCH awaits brighter days, and many are toiling hard to allow it to speak again...which it can with great authority, I might add! Still, having the organs is but one part of the job. Having and attracting proficient players to perform captivating literature is another!   >Any mental patient with a grade three education should know: >electronic organs or organ stops are nowhere near adequacy, nor shall they >ever be. > >With other words: digital organs are <insert rude wav sound here>.<snip>   Well, there's nothing to see here, folks! More architypical kneejerkery afoot! I resent the denegration of people with mental disabilities, however. How "christian" thou ain't!   >The church in the twentieth century is in the midst of a torrid love affair >with <insert rude wav sound here>.<snip>   Nonetheless, I shall conclude my opinion piece by saying that if the above is true (and it arguably is), all the better reason for organists and builders alike to set their minds on organs and organ playing in better, more publicly accessible venues, and follow through by organizing and promoting their frequent usage by organists of quality!   DeserTBoB