PipeChat Digest #1386 - Thursday, May 11, 2000
 
Turner Console refurbishment?
  by "Tom White" <tomwhite@hamptons.com>
The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music
  by "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
Re: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music
  by <Posthorn8@aol.com>
Re: Harmonic flutes -- more trouble than they are worth?
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Church Music Re: What exactly WAS wrong with the funeral?
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: Bad news
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Tampa POE
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Good Music in the RC Church
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
The Cardinal and his music
  by <KriderSM@aol.com>
Re: Harmonic flutes -- more trouble than they are worth?
  by "Chris Baker" <chorale@clara.co.uk>
Re: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Bad news
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Bad news
  by "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com>
Re: Bad news
  by "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com>
Re: Church Music Re: What exactly WAS wrong with the funeral?
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Anglican, Schmanglican
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Turner Console refurbishment?
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Good Music in the RC Church
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: The Cardinal and his music
  by "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com>
 


(back) Subject: Turner Console refurbishment? From: "Tom White" <tomwhite@hamptons.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:05:09 -0400   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000B_01BFBB0E.DCFA7140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Dear List   I am inquiring for information regarding a company based in CA that does = =3D console rebuilding and updating.   Have any of you dealt with them? What is the quality of workmanship? =3D etc.   I believe the name is Robert Turner but I may be mistaken.   Any help will be appreciated. You may reply privately to=3D20 tomwhite@hamptons.com   Tom White Christ Church Sag Harbor, NY ..   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000B_01BFBB0E.DCFA7140 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD>   <META content=3D3Dtext/html;charset=3D3Diso-8859-1 =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3D3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Dear List</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>I am inquiring for information =3D regarding a=3D20 company based in CA that does console rebuilding&nbsp; and=3D20 updating.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Have any of you dealt with them? = =3D What is the=3D20 quality of&nbsp; workmanship? etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>I believe the name is Robert = Turner =3D but I may be=3D20 mistaken.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Any help will be = appreciated.&nbsp; =3D You may=3D20 reply privately to </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D3D2><A=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:tomwhite@hamptons.com">tomwhite@hamptons.com</A></FONT></D= =3D IV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Tom White</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Christ Church</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>Sag Harbor, NY</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D2>.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000B_01BFBB0E.DCFA7140--    
(back) Subject: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 06:02:30 -0500   It has been five days since the Cardinal's funeral.   May we let him (and the service music) RIP.   Sincerely,   Thomas Gregory  
(back) Subject: Re: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music From: <Posthorn8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:17:16 EDT   In a message dated 5/11/00 7:03:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tgregory@speeddial.net writes:   << It has been five days since the Cardinal's funeral. May we let him (and the service music) RIP. Sincerely, Thomas Gregory >>   AMEN to that......  
(back) Subject: Re: Harmonic flutes -- more trouble than they are worth? From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:27:57 EDT   Dave:   (a) A harmonic flute has a rather unique harmonic structure. I'm not going = by book learning here - just my ears. It has a distinctive little 'yip' in = it's speech (not chiff). These give the stop it's value as a solo voice.   (b) The hole does not determine speaking length. It's the other way round. =   The hole is punched at the node. There is a formula for this. I'd tell you =   what it is but it's in the book that I keep on my voicing machine twenty minutes away. As far as tuning, a harmonic pipe tunes just like any other pipe.   Alan B.  
(back) Subject: Re: Church Music Re: What exactly WAS wrong with the funeral? From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:27:11 -0500   Re: On Eagles Wings..........   While in Paducah, Ky. working on the 3m 17r Reuter, The 'band' and choir were practicing the tune. It sounded goosey-bumpy in that cavernous old RC church.   I must say, I was caught by the melody, and the 'wunnerful' way the "orchestra" and Lemmon Sisters did their rendition.   If only the organist could play it using the celestes (for accompaniment) and (nicely-voiced) solo diapasons- but alas, he likes his beat-up Kimball grand better.   Rick        
(back) Subject: Re: Bad news From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:35:06 -0500   Dear Vicki- We're with you (I'm sure) in your times and troubles. God bless, and may He watch over you.   Rick        
(back) Subject: Tampa POE From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:57:41 -0500   There was an interesting article yesterday about the Tampa AGO Chapter's POE in the Tampa Tribune. Hopefully the article is still available at: http://www.tampa-tribune.com/MGIZY1IR28C.html   David  
(back) Subject: Good Music in the RC Church From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:58:29 EDT   I beg your pardon ?!? This is almost to say that Romans can't have good music so get used to it; only Anglicans have good music. After reading = some of the postings to this list it seems that even some musicians and = organists have accepted mediocrity as the norm. Wonderful music is just that = wonderful - but don't expect it. I say - why the hell not ?!?!? Has our craft gotten so cheap as to allow any old ditty tune to be played in the name of praising God ?   Repitory of the Parish: just what is this saying about St. Pat's that it's =   core repitory is Eagles Wings and the Mass of Creation? And even scarier = is that St. Pats claims to be the Roman Cathedral that the U.S. follows. I hope Idon't have to follow 'that' lead!   Alas, last summer when the Regional AGO convention was in Worcester, MA., there was an evensong service for the feast of STs. Peter & Paul at the Roman Cathedral of St. Paul, Worcester. The music, organ, choir were stunning. What was disturbning was after the evensong on the busses back = to hotel I over heard many "hard nosed AGOers" saying, "That was surprising - = I thought the music was almost Episcopalian" However - the music done was = most assuredly Roman Catholic. Just because it was done well and with taste - = it is called Anglican or Episcopal. (Cause we Romans just aren't capable of doing anything good - is that right?!?!)   Accepting mediocrity in music and musicians only serves to crumble our stance on supporting the pipe organ and music written for pipe organ. It = is sad that some are willing to accept a long painful death of the pipeorgan = - being replaced by "praize bands" for which Eagles Wings and The Mass Of Creation were written for. If we as music directors are not able to = minister with OUR instrument and OUR music but must pretend to like "crud" just as long as we play it on the organ so we have a job - then we have failed to minister to people and have just played any ol' music for a pay check. = There are names for people who do just about anything for money you know. I am NOT one of them!   All the Best, The Maitre >I think the problem here is that many are applying Anglican criteria to >this selection of funeral music. The mass setting for a funeral should = be >the one that is normally used at weekly mass so that the congregation is >familiar with it, especially when there is the liklihood of many = visitors. > Ditto for the hymns. They should be in the repertory of the parish, = even >if it is a cathedral parish. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: The Cardinal and his music From: <KriderSM@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:06:08 EDT   I have heard all points of view on this issue. No repetitive pounding of = an idea, however how loudly or longly, will change my mind.   If the Holy Father, who is himself advancing in human years, decides to = copy the Cardinal's precedent, would that be wrong? This brings up a question that has plagued this chatline for a long time. Please define "wrong" for = me.   One's choice of music is always grounded on one's personal religious experience and its own tradition. The Cardinal's dilemma was that when he died, he was a highly visible authority figure within a highly dogmatic organization who lived and died in one of the most fluid and = non-autocratic dtions on earth. As a non-Roman Catholic observer, I respect: 1. the Cardinal's choice of music for his funeral, and 2. faithful (defined also as "dogmatic") Roman Catholics questioning of = the Cardinal's choice.   We must let Cardinal O'Conner AND his choice of music rest in peace. We = must do so because the Christian church has changed so much over the past 20 centuries that we would not recognize the 1st century Christian church = (and its music). Neither would the early Christians comprehend the current = state of the Christin church.   Let the issue and the Cardinal both rest in peace.   Most respectfully, Stan Krider   The Maitre recently commented: <snip> I keep on saying that every time "crud" is done it always gives "the faithful" it is o-k and desireable to have "crud". I can't tell you how many times I have heard, "But St. So-and-so's does it and they sing" I = feel like I am a small minority fighting tooth and nail for quality and what is =   "really" Roman Catholic. Here in New England it sometimes almost seems = that "crud" is considered the norm and what is desirable; whereas quality music =   is the evil bad stuff that Vatican II has abolished forever! Every time I =   tell then to get out thier Vat II documents and read them they retort, = "But St. so-and-so's is doing it"   This was my biggest problem with the funeral music. Knowing that most Catholics love to do and hear what the "important" people do and hear - = now I have to contend with the phrase, "But the Cardinal Had it - why can't = we." UGH   I really think it is time for a national Catholic Musicians guild that promotes quality music and quality musicians!!!!!      
(back) Subject: Re: Harmonic flutes -- more trouble than they are worth? From: "Chris Baker" <chorale@clara.co.uk> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:30:09 +0100     ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave G.   > I have a couple questions concerning the harmonic flute > > (a) why bother? With properly scaled regular flute pipes can't you get the > same emphasis on fundamental that a harmonic flute is supposed to impart to > its tone? Or is the point to get a strong fundamental AND a number of > stringlike weaker harmonics? > > (b) if the hole is just poked in the pipe at a fixed location how can you > tune the pipe since the position of the hole determines the speaking length? > Why not have a sort of adjustable collar that can "move" the hole > position?   It seems as though you have been unfortunate in the examples of this register that you have come across. I would agree with you that there are many organs where the 4' Harmonic Flute is used (and only fit for) simply to provide the octave of the secondary chorus. Were you to experience the sheer beauty of examples by Walker, Binns, Harrison & Harrison, Schultze and several others, you would find a solo flute par excellence.   The aim in a harmonic flute, is not in fact to 'get a strong fundamental'. the first objective is to obtain an efficient overblow to the octave, and then depending on the placement of the node hole, to encourage the required harmonics. Most makers seek to encourage the twelfth harmonic, and this is often attained with the node hole placed just a little above the middle of the speaking length. The placing of the node hole is crucial in a couple of respects:- first that it helps to give that little 'chiff' sound that the digital organ makers are so enamoured of, and that in combination with careful mouth work, allows the overblow and the 'chiff' to come as close to an orchestral flute sound as possible. When 'chiff' becomes so pronounced that the character of the pipe is defined by it, then really and truly, the point has been missed, and this is where so many digital examples fall down - in that they treat 'chiff' as a separated sound in its own right, thus creating what amounts to a speech defect.   A well voiced Harmonic Flute note, produces a sensation of a pipe that briefly thought about sounding its fundamental, suddenly changed its mind and sounded its octave instead. (!)   The harmonic flute is a big subject, and I suspect you will get a great number of different viewpoints from this list about it.   Regards, Chris Baker    
(back) Subject: Re: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:07:48 -0400   Gosh, and it feels like only a bit under THREE days! Where DOES the time go?   Alan   > From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> > Subject: The Cardinal's Funeral & Selected Music > > It has been five days since the Cardinal's funeral.    
(back) Subject: Re: Bad news From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:14:12 -0500   >At 06:32 PM 5/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: >>I received some news this week that has me reeling. I had a "routine" >>lumptectomy last week, and was just told that I have breast cancer and = will >>need more surgery followed by chemo and radiation therapies.<snip>   My wife (and indirectly all of us) went through the same in 1994. We did not waste any time getting into follow up treatments; she started chemo = and radiation right away, kept a positive outlook, continued work (music teacher in elementary school,organist) all the way through and is strict = in adhering to her doctor's advice. Here we are 6 1/2 yrs later - knock on wood - and everything is fine.   We'll pray and God Bless,   John V      
(back) Subject: Re: Bad news From: "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:29:41 -0400   I just want to share with you that my Mom went through this ordeal and she = beat it and lived another 30 or so years passing away at 78. She choose not to = take chemo but did take Radiation. I am firmly convinced that her attitude and = faith is what helped most. My last girlfriend also went through it and it's been = seven years for her, modern care is so far ahead now a days. Chemo in her case = was not nearly anything like the movies show it to be I drove her to all her = sessions and at worst she had a little nausea. Her biggest worry was loosing her hair = ,she didn't.   My prayers are with you   Jerry   > >At 06:32 PM 5/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: > >>I received some news this week that has me reeling. I had a "routine" > >>lumptectomy last week, and was just told that I have breast cancer and = will > >>need more surgery followed by chemo and radiation therapies.<snip> > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Bad news From: "Jerry Riddle" <aqne@waveinter.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 11:33:16 -0400   Oh I forgot to add she passed away from respiratory failure she never had = a reoccurrence.   Jerry Riddle wrote:   > I just want to share with you that my Mom went through this ordeal and = she beat > it and lived another 30 or so years passing away at 78. > > Jerry > > > >At 06:32 PM 5/10/2000 EDT, you wrote: > > >>I received some news this week that has me reeling. I had a = "routine" > > >>lumptectomy last week, and was just told that I have breast cancer = and will > > >>need more surgery followed by chemo and radiation therapies.<snip> > > > > > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Church Music Re: What exactly WAS wrong with the funeral? From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:07:53 -0400   > From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> > Subject: Re: Church Music Re: What exactly WAS wrong with the funeral? > > If only the organist could play it using the celestes (for = accompaniment) > and (nicely-voiced) solo diapasons- but alas, he likes his beat-up = Kimball > grand better. > I'm not sure it was on this list, but I recall a thread six or eight = months ago--somewhere--about the use of celestes for accompaniment of vocal = music, and got the impression that it was a no-no.   Is that more of an open question than I thought?   Alan Freed, St. Lukes' Church, Manhattan    
(back) Subject: Anglican, Schmanglican From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:49:27 -0700   I don't think it's necessarily "Anglican" criteria ... this argument has = been going on ever since Vatican II (if not longer).   Case in point: St. Peter-In-Chains Cathedral (RC) in Cincinnati used to = broadcast Palm Sunday nationally. Despite having an all-paid mixed choir, spacious acoustics, and a passable organ, the authorities felt it was necessary for = the cathedral to hew to the "lowest common denominator" theory of liturgy and = music .... the "Dragnet Mass" out of the old Peoples' Mass Book (anybody = remember THAT?), gee-tarz, etc.. It was a national scandal, and enough of us said so that = it was finally stopped. But note: STOPPED, not rectified. They took it off the = air rather than fix it.   A cathedral has (or SHOULD have) a different function than a parish church = ... in days of yore, the cathedral was supposed to be the liturgical and musical = MODEL. Cathedrals, because of their size and musical establishments could rightly = do things as a matter of course that most parishes could only dream about. I = think that's still true in England.   By contrast, stay up sometime and listen to Christmas Midnight Mass from = St. Peter's in Rome ... EEEKKK!!! The ceremonies are well-done, but the music = is abysmal, and always has been. And the whole WORLD sees that every year as = a "model" Roman Catholic service. How sad!   We're Anglicans at St. Matthew's, and WE sing the familiar congregational = Merbecke Sanctus at funerals (since it was from an English requiem mass to begin = with), altho' my people could just as easily pick up the Requiem Sanctus; we sing = the Gregorian Kyrie and Agnus from the Requiem, the latter being required = because of the change in text; if requested, we also sing familiar hymns at the = processional, gradual, offertory, communion and recessional (though usually not all of = those at one service) ... at the most recent funeral, the family chose "A Mighty = Fortress" (processional), "Ye Watchers and Ye Holy Ones" (gradual), and the faithful departed verses (1,2,4,6,8) of "For All The Saints" (recessional).   BUT, those hymns were sung within the context of the venerable Anglican = Burial Office and Requiem; the former is the quintessential Anglican CHORAL = service, with the Sentences at the beginning and end sung by the choir, and the Psalms = (by local custom) chanted by everybody. The Requiem is sung according to parish = custom: polyphonic Propers, anthems at the offertory and communion, congregational = Sanctus (at least ... sometimes we sing the Merbecke ninefold Kyrie too), the = usual acclamations, etc.   At the funeral before this one, the family DID request "Ave Maria", and it = was sung at the Offertory, instead of an anthem. I don't have any problem with = that .... the text DOES end with "...pray for us sinners now, and at the hour = of our death".   At Old St. Mary's (RC) in Cincinnati, when I was the organist, the = "normal" music for funerals was the Casciolini Requiem (which I'd gotten from Dr. = Willan), sung in Latin by the full choir.   None of this is to say that the funeral at St. Pat's shouldn't have = conformed to current RC usage (which COULD have included just about any of the above); = just that there were FAR better choices available WITHIN the confines of that = usage.   Cheers,   Bud   Cremona502@cs.com wrote:   > In a message dated 5/10/00 11:44:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > the_maitre@hotmail.com writes: > > > What I don't understand is that all of a sudden we've deemed > > >the > > >music as ludicrous for a funeral. I personally saw nothing wrong = with it. > > > I think the problem here is that many are applying Anglican criteria to = this > selection of funeral music. The mass setting for a funeral should be = the > one that is normally used at weekly mass so that the congregation is = familiar > with it, especially when there is the liklihood of many visitors. = Ditto for > the hymns. They should be in the repertory of the parish, even if it is = a > cathedral parish. We all must knuckle under to the desires of the = family. > It's just one of those things. It is indeed unfortunate that clergy > seem to have little taste or regard for music in worship, and the = problem > seems to intensify the higher on the hydrant they climb! > > Bruce > . . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles > Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com > http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Turner Console refurbishment? From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:58:26 -0700   Here's their website:   http://www.turnerorgans.com/index.html   I haven't dealt with them personally, but they have done several high-end consoles for "name" organs in recent years.   Cheers,   Bud   Tom White wrote:   > Dear List I am inquiring for information regarding a company based in > CA that does console rebuilding and updating. Have any of you dealt > with them? What is the quality of workmanship? etc. I believe the > name is Robert Turner but I may be mistaken. Any help will be > appreciated. You may reply privately totomwhite@hamptons.com Tom > WhiteChrist ChurchSag Harbor, NY.    
(back) Subject: Re: Good Music in the RC Church From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:35:08 -0700   What's being forgotten in this dust-up is that we Anglicans GOT our = standards from the RCs originally ... when Solesmes started the Chant reform, we = embraced it whole-heartedly; when the Motu proprio on church music was issued by = St. Pius X, we adopted it; most anglo-catholic parishes even observed the rules of = the Society of St. Gregory's "White List" and "Black List".   Remember the old joke? The RC priest turns to his deacon before High Mass = and says, "For heaven's sake, don't sneeze during the incensations, or the = Anglicans will have it in 'Ritual Notes' by Tuesday!"   England has always been a "special case". Their standards are ENGLISH, not = RC or Anglican. The Italian ambassador, writing well before the Reformation, = describes English choirs as "angelic". He also notes the presence of wonderful low = basses ("contrabassi") in the choir of the Chapel Royal. And that choir is = probably STILL singing some of the same repertoire TODAY, still sounds "angelic", = and still has fabulous basses.   There were some FABULOUS RC musical establishments prior to Vatican II ... probably about as many as there were Anglican, albeit not as = well-known.The PROBLEM is that a MIS-interpretation of the documents of Vatican II swept = many of them away, at least in the U.S. (and, I gather, Canada and Australia).   I have said over and over again that this is NOT true in England, or on = the Continent ... one still hears the English polyphonists sung in Westminster = (RC) Cathedral, and Mozart and Haydn Masses ALL OVER Germany and Austria. And = France, after going through a "silly season" musically and liturgically, seems to = be recovering. My friend in Budapest tells me they still do pretty much what = they always did: Low Mass at the altar and Beethoven in C, etc. sung in the = loft, although a few places have the Hungarian equivalent of Singmesse, with vernacular hymns replacing the Latin Ordinary.   Old St. Mary's originally fought to keep the Latin Mass because they = didn't want to give up the MUSIC ... the theological battle over the Novus Ordo came = LATER.   Bottom line: it doesn't have to be this way ... let the RC parishes with = the resources and the desire DO traditional music ... having "high-church" and "low-church" parishes hasn't killed the ANGLICAN church.   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Re: The Cardinal and his music From: "Erik Johnson" <the_maitre@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:45:32 EDT   The Problem here is that when a RC Bishop/Cardinal/Pope does something it sets a "Precedent" which all "good" Roman Catholics follow. As one of the =   Roman Churches "Leaders" and one of it's most political and powerful - = "He" should have been thinking of the "Precedent" the "funeral" was making by it's choices of music. For every small step we Catholic Musicians make forward - something like this brings us about 50 huge steps backwards.   Catholic Worship is not really akin to any other worship style other than Anglican and some Episcopal and Lutheran denominations. The music serves more than to provide filler for time or to make one happy and uplift ones heart and make you happy. Catholic Music should pertain to the Actions of =   the Mass, the Scripture Readings, the meanings of the Mass Actions, mysticism of divine rites and actions, etc... The Words of the Sanctus ... "Holy Holy Holy Lord God of Power and Might Heaven and Earth are full of Your Glory...." and the mysticism behind = these words are not served by the music from the Mass of Creation. Therefor... I =   would not call this music wrong but in very poor taste not really = befitting a Roman Mass. Yet prevail still does it!!!   I am not out to rip apart the Cardinal (Certainly myself and other could find many many other reasons to do so with out mentioning music), rather = it is the "Precedent" set by it that I object to. And the fact that such a powerful leader of the Church should have considered the ramifications of his actions rather than having something that was "nice and cute".   All the Best,   The Maitre     > >I have heard all points of view on this issue. No repetitive pounding of = an >idea, however how loudly or longly, will change my mind. > >If the Holy Father, who is himself advancing in human years, decides to >copy >the Cardinal's precedent, would that be wrong? This brings up a question >that has plagued this chatline for a long time. Please define "wrong" for =   >me. > >One's choice of music is always grounded on one's personal religious >experience and its own tradition. The Cardinal's dilemma was that when he >died, he was a highly visible authority figure within a highly dogmatic >organization who lived and died in one of the most fluid and = non-autocratic >dtions on earth. >As a non-Roman Catholic observer, I respect: >1. the Cardinal's choice of music for his funeral, and >2. faithful (defined also as "dogmatic") Roman Catholics questioning of = the >Cardinal's choice. > >We must let Cardinal O'Conner AND his choice of music rest in peace. We >must >do so because the Christian church has changed so much over the past 20 >centuries that we would not recognize the 1st century Christian church = (and >its music). Neither would the early Christians comprehend the current = state >of the Christin church. > >Let the issue and the Cardinal both rest in peace. > >Most respectfully, >Stan Krider     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com