PipeChat Digest #1408 - Saturday, May 20, 2000
 
Re: Great Recital Idea- a little ranting and raving
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
authenticity
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Great Recital Idea- a little ranting and raving
  by "John  M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com>
Holtkamp
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: authenticity
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Holtkamp
  by <ManderUSA@aol.com>
Re: Holtkamp
  by <Quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Swell Pedals
  by <MickBerg@aol.com>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Great Recital Idea- a little ranting and raving From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 08:43:19 +0800   I think the current argument on authenticity of organ performance has = dragged on too long, and I have had as much to sy as anyone.   However my parting shot: Using the arguments of Bruce and some others no Bach should be played by a = modern symphony orchestra or on a piano, nor should anyother music of Bach's = time or earlier; it is not authentic. Come to think of it there should be no = modern instruments in an orchestra playing Haydn, etc. No clarinets. These would = not be authentic performances. My last on the subject. B.E.   Cremona502@cs.com wrote:   > In a message dated 5/19/00 7:29:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = rringram@syr.edu > writes: > > > However, you also propose that only music of that particular period = be > > played on that instrument. Oh, wait, I'm doing a Franck Chorale. Let = me > just > > pull out my handy-dandy five-manual Cavaille-Coll complete replica = with the > > most kick@$$ swell pedal on the face of the earth. I live in a 3-room > > apartment, I'm sure the landlord wouldn't mind if I just hoisted it = through > > the ceilings and floors. > > Sorry..... I proposed no such thing. I enjoy playing music of other > periods on organs not of that period. The newness is exciting even if = the > piece cannot be played "according to the book." What I AM proposing is = that > people not get locked in to the idea that every organ be able to play = all > music authenitcally (or semi-authentically). The Syracuse Holtkamp is = no > doubt a fine instrument. I have not heard it, but have heard the very = famous > one in Battel (sp?) Chapel in New Haven. It is quite a fine instrument = and > unique in its own way, but it cannot play everything (authentically). = This > is the fine distinction. If an organ has three manuals of 61 notes = each, > and a 32 note pedalboard, technically it can play "everything" but not > "everything authentically." My point is that it is good to have = instruments > that CAN play some music authentically; the rest of the literature = simply > will need to be adjusted to its nuances. > > > Hey, I have a great idea for my recital next year. We'll start off in = my > > church in Syracuse with the Bach because it is a boroque-era type > > instrument. Next we'll drive to Montreal so you can hear Franck on a > > Casavant. And THEN, we can come back down to Phoenix, NY to hear some = Byrd > > on that lovely little Johnson they have down there. And then I'll = re-tune > > the whole thing in meantone! It's not THAT hard! > > Please lighten-up and relax your brain. You are at an age where = everything > is experienced in a very intense way. If you will be more receptive to = that > which is not coming from your present mentors, you will benefit greatly. > I'm sure this will fall of deaf ears now, but one day you will think = back and > say.... "hmmmmmmmmm, I do believe he had a point." (It happened to = me, so > I hold to ill feelings.) ;-) > > Bruce > . . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles > Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com > http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502 > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: authenticity From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 17:52:15 -0700       Bob Elms wrote:   > However my parting shot: > Using the arguments of Bruce and some others no Bach should be played by = a modern > symphony orchestra or on a piano, nor should anyother music of Bach's = time or > earlier; it is not authentic. Come to think of it there should be no = modern > instruments in an orchestra playing Haydn, etc. No clarinets. These = would not be > authentic performances.   Well, I think that's a little bit different ... we have an opportunity to = hear music in other mediums in all sorts of different incarnations ...   AND, nobody expects a baroque horn player to play Mahler, do they? At = least not on a baroque horn? And I'm FAIRLY sure nobody expects a B flat (or even a C) = trumpeter to play those altissimo baroque clarino parts on a modern trumpet.   Or maybe it isn't so different ... I don't think anyone EXPECTS to hear = "authentic" Bach (or anything ELSE) when they come to St. Matthew's for Sunday Mass = ... I play my Bach pretty straight, but I play it on a Hammond/Suzuki in a temporary = chapel in a shopping center; my choir sings Chant and polyphony, but I have women = altos and sopranos. But there ARE places where the organ music is played on an = historic organ, and the choir is made up of men and boys. I don't apologize for the one; I = enjoy the other immensely. I would HAVE the other, when and if I could, but I don't = stop making music because I don't.   Aside from the Chant and the polyphony, ours is a pretty Victorian = traditional Anglican "high" service, and if I live long enough to have an organ built = for St. Matthew's, it will reflect that .. it will have slider windchests, and = moderate wind-pressures, but lots of 8' stops; the key action may be electric or = tracker ... I have to be where the choir can see me, since I'm choirmaster and organist. = I can PLAY a service with no combination action, but I'd rather have one, if we can = afford it. But I'll spend the money on pipes first.   One of my major concerns, since I'm nearing retirement, is that I not = saddle my successor with a terribly eccentric organ, while at the same time locking = down the Victorian English sound, since, given our polity, the service will NEVER = change, and that's the sound the service needs.   In passing, it'll probably play most things tolerably well, but that's = incidental; first and foremost, it has to accompany the SERVICE. For the most part, = Anglican organs aren't built primarily as recital instruments.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Great Recital Idea- a little ranting and raving From: "John M. Doney" <jdoney@email.msn.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 21:44:17 -0000   Bruce writes   >> The Syracuse Holtkamp is no doubt a fine instrument. I have not heard it, but have heard the very famous one in Battel (sp?) Chapel in New = Haven. It is quite a fine instrument and unique in its own way, but it cannot play everything (authentically).<   One of the unique things about the Crouse organ at Syracuse is that it is not a typical Walter Holtkamp organ and Poister fought to get the design = he wanted which included a French Swell with Trompettes at 16-8-4. (and two celestes!!) The Great was larger as was the Positiv. I have played the Battell Chapel organ at Yale and it would be considered a typical Walter Holtkamp design. In fact the organ at Hendricks Chapel at Syracuse is a typical Walter Holtkamp and is quite different than Crouse. John ..        
(back) Subject: Holtkamp From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:39:42 -0700   "The Holtkamp Sound" is not one-dimensional, by any means ... the = Cleveland area is virtually a living museum of the development of Walter Sr.'s tonal ideas ... there is (or was ... I think the church is gone now) a = more-or-less all-8' organ in old St. Joseph's RC; the unique little three-manual organ = in St. James Anglican Catholic church on East 55th Street, with the very = first detached and exposed positiv; the Wurlitzer/Holtkamp (!) in the chapel of = St. Mary's Seminary, St. Paul's Lutheran Church, right down the street from = St. James, one of the early examples of functional asymetrical pipe displays; = a rather mild three-manual with the first church rueckpositiv in St. = Philomena's RC on the east side; the rather massive French sound of the organ in St. = John's RC Cathedral, with the Great in rueckpositiv position, St. Stephen Hungary = RC on the west side with its en chamade dulzians above the organist's head, = etc.   St. Paul's Episcopal, Cleveland Heights (the Holtkamp family church) is probably one of the finest examples of his mature style ... it was and is = (like the Crouse Auditorium instrument) an exciting, eclectic organ, while at = the same time unmistakably Holtkamp. I heard Marchal there, and he certainly = didn't have any trouble coaxing big French sounds out of it.   Walter Holtkamp Jr. built a notable but little known three-manual tracker = organ in French classic/romantic style in La Mesa Methodist Church (a suburb of = San Diego). I understand his son has now taken over the business ... I seldom = see new work by the firm listed nowadays, which is sad ... the family = contributed so much to the development of the American organ.   Cheers,   Bud       "John M. Doney" wrote:   > Bruce writes > > >> The Syracuse Holtkamp is no doubt a fine instrument. I have not = heard > it, but have heard the very famous one in Battel (sp?) Chapel in New = Haven. > It is quite a fine instrument and > unique in its own way, but it cannot play everything (authentically).< > > One of the unique things about the Crouse organ at Syracuse is that it = is > not a typical Walter Holtkamp organ and Poister fought to get the design = he > wanted which included a French Swell with Trompettes at 16-8-4. (and two > celestes!!) The Great was larger as was the Positiv. I have played = the > Battell Chapel organ at Yale and it would be considered a typical Walter > Holtkamp design. In fact the organ at Hendricks Chapel at Syracuse is a > typical Walter Holtkamp and is quite different than Crouse. John > . >    
(back) Subject: Re: authenticity From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:40:32 EDT   In a message dated 5/19/00 9:22:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   > One of my major concerns, since I'm nearing retirement, is that I not saddle > my > successor with a terribly eccentric organ, Why not? Do you think the people who had unit organs installed and (God forbid) electronics installed in their churches considered the poor dupe = who would follow them. Not on your life. How do you know that your = successor would not love to have a victorian instrument. If we continue to procrastinate making decisions until we know what our successors want, NOTHING WILL HAPPEN!!! I certainly don't think I was considered with my previous parishes = purchased their Moller, or Wicks, or Allen!   Bruce .. . . .in the Beagles' Nest with the Baskerbeagles Molly, Duncan, and Miles Cremona502@cs.com http://ourworld.cs.com/Brucon502  
(back) Subject: Re: Holtkamp From: <ManderUSA@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 00:56:21 EDT   In a message dated 5/20/00 12:10:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << St. Paul's Episcopal, Cleveland Heights (the Holtkamp family church) is probably one of the finest examples of his mature style ... it was and is =   (like the Crouse Auditorium instrument) an exciting, eclectic organ, while at = the same time unmistakably Holtkamp. I heard Marchal there, and he certainly didn't have any trouble coaxing big French sounds out of it. >>   I wonder, Bud, how many times Marchal played there. A bunch of us Oberlin students went in to one such occasion in the back of Fenner Douglass's station wagon (is it possible that we were both at the same event?), which =   ultimately led to my singing in that church choir for about two years. = With another student, I drove in every Thursday for rehearsal, and sang every Sunday, all under the remarkable direction of Walter Blodgett, who was = very much, officially or not, Walter Holtkamp's tonal advisor. We often stayed = in Cleveland until Walter's weekly Sunday afternoon Organ recital on the then-wonderful Holtkamp rebuild of the Skinner over the sculpture court at =   the Cleveland Museum of Art (another early Ruck Positif - you can find a picture in Blanton), where Karel Paukert now holds forth with distinction (and at the church as well). St. Paul's, by the way, had a 32' Polyphone, discussed at some lenght on PipOrg-L, I believe, and I think it also had a =   32' flue Cornet resultant affair, made up of about seven ranks of pipes = wired from various parts of the Pedal organ. I am quite sure both the Polyphone = and Cornet were ideas on loan from Compton. We almost did a Polyphone at = Christ Church, Cranbrook in Michigan, but there was just not going to be = sufficient space even for that in the chambers. At Chestnut Hill, we have a very successful 10 2/3 that produces quite a powerful 32' tone, something we = and the organist very much prefer to the opacity of you know what!   << Walter Holtkamp Jr. built a notable but little known three-manual = tracker organ in French classic/romantic style in La Mesa Methodist Church (a suburb of = San Diego). >>   The above might mean you are unaware that Walter Jr. has built quite a few =   trackers. I know three large ones off hand: Park Avenue Christian Church, = NY (4 manuals), Bradley Hills Presbyterian Church, Bethesda, MD (where Don Sutherland played for a goodly number of years), and a very new organ at = the Peabody in Baltimore, which I have not yet heard. I do believe you are = right in saying that Walter Jr. (Chick) has turned the business over to his son (Chicklet), who, I am told, has a great aptitude for, and interest in, the =   art of Organbuilding. I personally hope the name will live on with distinction, even if the organs do speak out of both sides of their mouths = . .. . only the Ludwigtones, or course!   Cheers,    
(back) Subject: Re: Holtkamp From: <Quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 22:00:20 -0700           > In a message dated 5/20/00 12:10:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: > > (snip) > > << Walter Holtkamp Jr. built a notable but little known three-manual = tracker > organ > in French classic/romantic style in La Mesa Methodist Church (a suburb = of San > Diego). >>   ManderUSA@aol.com wrote:   > > > The above might mean you are unaware that Walter Jr. has built quite a = few > trackers. I know three large ones off hand: Park Avenue Christian = Church, NY > (4 manuals), Bradley Hills Presbyterian Church, Bethesda, MD (where Don > Sutherland played for a goodly number of years), and a very new organ at = the > Peabody in Baltimore, which I have not yet heard.   No, I'm aware of the others ... I just thought the STYLE of La Mesa = Methodist was remarkable, since it WAS such a departure from the usual Holtkamp stoplist = AND sound. He used the NAMES, to be SURE, but OH BOY do they sound DIFFERENT = (grin).   Didn't Roberta (Gary) dedicate the very first Holtkamp tracker (Lutheran = church in New Jersey?)? I know she's played a recital there ...   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Swell Pedals From: <MickBerg@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 02:28:29 EDT   Thanks for all the suggestions re swell pedals. I was just trying to keep some consistency in the console. And I think I'll try to keep away from pieces of string, thanks, Connie! :-) Gary's idea of using the contacts with resistors is the obvious solution. = And to think I already did it and didn't think to use it again! It amazes me = how clever and dumb I can be at the same time!   Mick Berg.