PipeChat Digest #1428 - Tuesday, May 30, 2000
 
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
RE: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Bert Atwood" <atwoody@ispchannel.com>
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Theatre Organ and Band Show Chicago area (cross posted)
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
An expert responds to recent pipechat threads.
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu>
Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff
  by <KurtvonS@aol.com>
Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY??
  by "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com>
Re: Other Crumhorn notes
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com>
Have I been misinformed??
  by <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
Re: Have I been misinformed??
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY??
  by "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com>
Re: Have I been misinformed??
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY??
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Have I been misinformed??
  by <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net>
 


(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 08:09:46 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes   > You need to do some studying. Any experienced tuner will tell you it's the > flues that change seasonally...NOT the reeds. All tuners "fudge" the reeds > to match the changing flues, thus giving the reeds a bum rap.   Um??   I've been tuning my organ going on four years, and it's always been my = reeds that have gone first. And I'm sure of that. I'm talking, like, minor = second, major second out of tune. And I have perfect pitch, it drives me -nuts-! Granted that my flues -do- change seasonally, but my reeds are usually much, -much- worse. I canot stress how much worse they are! (Believe me, WORSE!!! :)) I can't just "fudge" the reeds, they have to be re-tuned.   HOWEVER, I also live in upstate New York. Our average summer high was somewhere around 90. Our average winter low this winter was around 15. And it's a Delaware. (That fact alone should explain things.) And, to credit reeds, these aren't the best made honkers, either.   -Rebekah    
(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:36:57 +0800   Rebekah, get a tuner and check the organ pitch on a certain day. Then do = the same on a day when the temperature has risen markedly and you will find = your flues have gone sharp while your reeds are almost where they started. = Conversely when the temperature drops the flues will flatten but there won't be a = great deal of change to the reeds. It is a scientific fact that when the air = becomes hot it has less density and the flue pipes beat faster, and vice versa. = The main pitch governing element in the reeds is the length of the reed tongue and = this changes very little. The effect then is that it seems that the reeds have changed pitch; however it is not so. It is the flues which change together = at much the same rate so that they seem to be still in tune.   I have been tuning for over forty five years and I know the above to be = fact. You can check it for yourself quite easily. Of course it is not practical = to retune all the flues every time as there are usually many more flue stops including mixtures; it is easier to shift the reeds into tune with the = flues, and that is what is done.   My flues shift during a service when there is a large congregation due to = the heating up of the church by all those people. Once or twice the effect has = been so bad that I finish by not using the reeds at all. This is exceptional = however.   If your reeds actually do shift that much it could be that the actual = reeds need some service.   Best regards, Bob Elms.   Rebekah Ingram wrote:   > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 4:07 PM > Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes > > > You need to do some studying. Any experienced tuner will tell you = it's > the > > flues that change seasonally...NOT the reeds. All tuners "fudge" the > reeds > > to match the changing flues, thus giving the reeds a bum rap. > > Um?? > > I've been tuning my organ going on four years, and it's always been my = reeds > that have gone first. And I'm sure of that. I'm talking, like, minor = second, > major second out of tune. And I have perfect pitch, it drives me -nuts-! > Granted that my flues -do- change seasonally, but my reeds are usually > much, -much- worse. I canot stress how much worse they are! (Believe me, > WORSE!!! :)) I can't just "fudge" the reeds, they have to be re-tuned. > > HOWEVER, I also live in upstate New York. Our average summer high was > somewhere around 90. Our average winter low this winter was around 15. = And > it's a Delaware. (That fact alone should explain things.) And, to credit > reeds, these aren't the best made honkers, either. > > -Rebekah > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 07:59:53 -0500   Rebekah Ingram wrote:   > I've been tuning my organ going on four years, and it's always been my = reeds > that have gone first. And I'm sure of that. I'm talking, like, minor = second, > major second out of tune.   It is of course, as others have said, the flues and not the reeds that generally change. It is just that it is easier to retune, say, two ranks of reeds than twenty ranks of flues, which is why tuners often just retune the reeds. I have never come across flues that would change by as much as a minor second relative to the reeds. Even the most extreme heating up in the summer would only cause the pitch of the flues to change by around 40 or 50 cents, which would be equivalent to the pitch changing from A440 to around A445. To change by as much as a minor second would require the temperature in the church to go up to two or three hundred degrees Fahrenheit, and would kill everyone. If the reeds are really changing and by as much as a minor second, there must be something wrong with them and they would need cleaning, recurving, retonguing, new wedges, new tuning wires, scroll repair or some other such treatment.   John Speller  
(back) Subject: RE: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Bert Atwood" <atwoody@ispchannel.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 10:16:48 -0700   I don't have perfect pitch, so this is a serious question. Does perfect pitch vary with temperature? Otherwise, Rebekah has already done what you are suggesting.   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Bob Elms > Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 5:37 AM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes > > > Rebekah, get a tuner and check the organ pitch on a certain day. > Then do the > same on a day when the temperature has risen markedly and you > will find your > flues have gone sharp while your reeds are almost where they > started. Conversely > when the temperature drops the flues will flatten but there won't > be a great > deal of change to the reeds. It is a scientific fact that when > the air becomes > hot it has less density and the flue pipes beat faster, and vice > versa. The main > pitch governing element in the reeds is the length of the reed > tongue and this > changes very little. The effect then is that it seems that the reeds = have > changed pitch; however it is not so. It is the flues which change > together at > much the same rate so that they seem to be still in tune. > > I have been tuning for over forty five years and I know the above > to be fact. > You can check it for yourself quite easily. Of course it is not > practical to > retune all the flues every time as there are usually many more flue = stops > including mixtures; it is easier to shift the reeds into tune > with the flues, > and that is what is done. > > My flues shift during a service when there is a large > congregation due to the > heating up of the church by all those people. Once or twice the > effect has been > so bad that I finish by not using the reeds at all. This is > exceptional however. > > If your reeds actually do shift that much it could be that the > actual reeds need > some service. > > Best regards, > Bob Elms. > > Rebekah Ingram wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> > > To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> > > Sent: Monday, May 29, 2000 4:07 PM > > Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes > > > > > You need to do some studying. Any experienced tuner will > tell you it's > > the > > > flues that change seasonally...NOT the reeds. All tuners "fudge" = the > > reeds > > > to match the changing flues, thus giving the reeds a bum rap. > > > > Um?? > > > > I've been tuning my organ going on four years, and it's always > been my reeds > > that have gone first. And I'm sure of that. I'm talking, like, > minor second, > > major second out of tune. And I have perfect pitch, it drives me = -nuts-! > > Granted that my flues -do- change seasonally, but my reeds are usually > > much, -much- worse. I canot stress how much worse they are! (Believe = me, > > WORSE!!! :)) I can't just "fudge" the reeds, they have to be re-tuned. > > > > HOWEVER, I also live in upstate New York. Our average summer high was > > somewhere around 90. Our average winter low this winter was > around 15. And > > it's a Delaware. (That fact alone should explain things.) And, to = credit > > reeds, these aren't the best made honkers, either. > > > > -Rebekah > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------- > Click here for Free Video!! > http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:38:03   At 08:39 PM 5/29/2000 EDT, you wrote: >Excellent points from across the pond Mr. Baker. However everyone has = missed >one big point in regard to reeds. DIRT!. It's a dirty world. Reeds are vastly >more sensitive to dirt than flues. Flys, beetles, bees, moths, ladybugs, >roaches, spiders, etc...<snip>   Although there's little to be done in terms of preventing dirt and insect incursion into pipework from the top and mouth, there's a lot that can be done from the blower end. There's no reason, given the cheap technology available, for every organ to have at least an ASHRAE 30% filter system on the blower's intake. 90% "bag" filters would be even better, especially = in areas where "microdust" is a problem. Common 10% "furnace filters" are nothing more than a guard against wayward birds, and shouldn't be = seriously considered. Still, few builders that I know of use intake filtration in their installations, much to the detriment of the instrument later on.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Theatre Organ and Band Show Chicago area (cross posted) From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:57:42 -0500   Sunday June 4th at 2:30 PM CATOE in cooperation with the PICKWICK THEATRE COUNCIL presents a "BIG BAND JAMBOUREE!!" with organist JOHN GRUNE with his big band "AIRFLOW DELUXE" Advance tickets $10 by mail order or purchase from Pickwick Box= =20 Office. To get tickets by mail send order to CATOE BOX OFFICE, 173 Rosedale , Aurora, Il. Make checks or money orders payable=20 to CATOE. please include a self-addressed stamped envelope =85. ALL TICKETS $12 when purchased day of show Additional information can be found in the CATOE June newsletter on the website at http://www.catoe.org      
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:09:17 PDT     >From: "Mr. Jan S. VanDerStad" <dcob@nac.net> > >Hi, Dave > >I'd be glad to see what you have as for that mechanical action unit = >organ.   Hi Mr. VanDerStad,   Well at least SOME PEOPLE here are interested in a fully mechanical unit organ action -- rather than rudely labeling me a "unabomber-like = techno-geek crazy".   DG   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: An expert responds to recent pipechat threads. From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:31:41 PDT   Hi all,   I've been asked to forward the following message in regard to various scoffs and rebuffs I've received in this forum.   The writer is not subscribed to pipechat but is a leading authority in flue pipe acoustics with over 20 years' experience in the organ building industry. We've been discussing my evolving designs for small unit organs and he is intrigued to say the least.   Amen.   ------------forwarded message follows-----------------   This is EXACTLY the type of closed-minded resistance I have met with during the past 25 years! I suppose trying to talk to such people is like talking to the wind. Believe me, I've had my share. Fortunately though there is an increasing number of those who are willing to listen to new ideas.   Let the traditionalists have their opinions and let the progressives keep experimenting and learning. This useless biggoted bickering accomplishes nothing and halts any progress to the organ builder's art.   Once the progressively minded builders have the opportunity to build a few truly awesome instruments in non traditional venues that will get the attention of the public, this insane division amongst ourselves will finally cease and we can all start learning from each other.   There is certainly room for more than ONLY the traditional school of organ building as the traditionalists would have you believe. Maybe those squawking the loudest are afraid those taking the scientific approach will discover all their long hidden secrets. There should be no fear on their part as we are all working toward a common goal-the preservation of the art of organbuilding in the 21st Century.   Until then, the traditionalists will continue building their traditional instruments for their limited audience while the progressives will end up reintroducing the pipe organ to the public at large.   A house divided amongst itself will not continue standing. Using the simple argument that art and science doesn't mix or that one is right simply because it's been done this way for centuries doesn't hold much water in the Information Age. It's time we all pool our resources by not closing our minds to what those who think differently than themselves have to offer. We are shooting ourselves in the foot to think otherwise. Progress is only made when someone trys to improve on what has already been done, NOT by whistling Dixie and simply maintaining the status quo. We wouldn't be able to be reading this right now if that were the case.   Good organ building practices will always remain a combination of art and science, with an increasing emphasis on the science as we progress further into the 21st Century. We know a lot more about sound and the science of acoustics today than did pioneers such as Raliegh, Helmholtz et al and have far more sophisticated tools of investigation than Raleigh's disk or Helmholtz's resonator.   We now have tools such as FFT analyzers, MLSSA software, etc. which our predecessors could not have even dreamed of. I would hope that our successors will have access to even more. The ear will always be the final decision maker on which ideas are musically significant, but these tools can certainly help us to collect factual information and help us get there a lot sooner.   If every time someone who comes up with a good idea (and has gone to the work of scientifically proving it or even the expense of patenting it) is shot down for doing so, it is no surprise that the general opinion in this field is what it is. It's time for some healing and reviving and putting old ways behind us.   WAKE UP!! This is the year 2000, not 1900!! Most of all we should be LEARNING from each other, not trying to always put down anyone whose opinion differs from that of "the crowd". Once this generation has died off how many newcomers will be interested enough in the pipe organ to carry the banner? There is an entire generation out there who has never even seen or heard a pipe organ, much less taking an active interest in it.   I'm not sure whether or not I'm on Pipechat yet, but this should definitely be posted. It is a wake up call to all those sleeping out there.   ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Rebekah Ingram" <rringram@syr.edu> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:59:36 -0400     ----- Original Message ----- From: John L. Speller <jlspeller@stlnet.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2000 8:59 AM Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes   > three hundred degrees Fahrenheit, and would kill everyone. If the reeds > are really changing and by as much as a minor second, there must be > something wrong with them and they would need cleaning, recurving, > retonguing, new wedges, new tuning wires, scroll repair or some other > such treatment.   Or it could just be that they're Delaware reeds. ;-)      
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 13:56:28   At 01:09 PM 5/30/2000 PDT, you wrote: >Well at least SOME PEOPLE here are interested in a fully mechanical unit >organ action -- rather than rudely labeling me a "unabomber-like = techno-geek >crazy".<snip>   No, no, no! The Unabomber WARNED of techno-geeks! He wasn't one himself. He was just crazy! LMAO   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff From: <KurtvonS@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 17:29:22 EDT   In a message dated 5/30/00 4:20:17 PM Central Daylight Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << Well at least SOME PEOPLE here are interested in a fully mechanical = unit >organ action -- >> I only wonder WHY? To enter a Rube Goldberg" sort of contest, maybe?  
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY?? From: "Dave G." <dave_hat@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 14:58:38 PDT     >I only wonder WHY? To enter a Rube Goldberg" sort of contest, maybe?   First, there are tracker action fans all over the place. Why? because = for smallish, low-wind instruments tracker action has various advantages over = EP and other technology, simplicity and maintainability (lots of tracker instruments over 300 years old are still playable, if a little creaky) as well as the direct control over speaking that many find compelling.   Second, it needs to be said that my design is in no way "Rube Goldberg"-esque. I am a software engineer; what that means is that I have =   been trained to find elegant and minimally complicated solutions to = complex problems. This is often done by seeing how the solution can be formulated =   in terms of simple, regular, repeated components.   I don't want to publicize the design just yet, but suffice it to say that = it is not conceptually much more complex than a regular tracker design. I = have also set it up so it can be easily taken apart and (re)assembled.   The fully mechanical combination capture action is a little more subtle = but again, not complicated. It is physically and conceptually separate from = the main key-to-pallet "multiplexer" -- that is, the two systems are not inextricably knotted together but more or less independent.   regards,   Dave G.     ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Other Crumhorn notes From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:44:22 +0800   There is no need for perfect pitch. I said use a tuner. By that I meant = one of the electronic tuning devices. I don't recommend them for tuning organs = though many use them, but they will measure the pitch of the organ.   Perfect pitch as far as I am concerned is the ability to pitch a note = given a reference note. For instance when training a choir someone with PP could = pitch the tenor note given the alto etc. and could pitch the first note for the = next anthem in a different key. I can do that and also can my son who is a professional tuner. It does not mean that he or she can pitch a perfect = A=3D440 without any reference note, although I have known one or two people who = can do that..   Bob E.   Bert Atwood wrote:   > I don't have perfect pitch, so this is a serious question. Does perfect > pitch vary with temperature? Otherwise, Rebekah has already done what = you > are suggesting. >    
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs and other wild stuff From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@stlnet.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:01:37 -0500   Following the death of Thomas Hill at the beginning of the 1890's, there was something of a power struggle as to who would take over the English organbuilding firm of William Hill & Son (later Hill, Norman & Beard), which Dr. Arthur G. Hill eventually won. While this was going on some rather strange developments took place, and curiously enough one of these was the construction of a unit tracker organ. So there is nothing particularly novel about the idea.   John Speller  
(back) Subject: Have I been misinformed?? From: <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 21:09:00 -0400 (EDT)     >>Perfect pitch as far as I am concerned is the ability to pitch a note given a reference note. For instance when training a choir someone with PP could pitch the tenor note given the alto etc. and could pitch the first note for the next anthem in a different key.<<   Bob, what you're describing is what I always thought was referred to as "relative pitch."   Perfect pitch, to my understanding, means being able to sing a note "out of the blue". There are those who can do that.   Both are very useful skills and require practice to be maintained.   For the organist, pitch recognition (is this a better term?) is useful when trying to determine a faulty pipe. Also, I've always inwardly, secretly strutted my stuff :) when a singer started to sing in HIS/HER key and I could instantly match them. Especially the ones that aren't that good, but think they are hot stuff.   OH well, enough touting for one evening. I better go take a humble pill.   Neil    
(back) Subject: Re: Have I been misinformed?? From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 09:13:57 +0800   Neil, you may be right. Bob E.   Innkawgneeto@webtv.net wrote:   > >>Perfect pitch as far as I am concerned is the ability to pitch a note > given a reference note. For instance when training a choir someone with > PP could pitch the tenor note given the alto etc. and could pitch the > first note for the next anthem in a different key.<< > > Bob, what you're describing is what I always thought was referred to as > "relative pitch." > > Perfect pitch, to my understanding, means being able to sing a note "out > of the blue". There are those who can do that. > > Both are very useful skills and require practice to be maintained. > > For the organist, pitch recognition (is this a better term?) is useful > when trying to determine a faulty pipe. Also, I've always inwardly, > secretly strutted my stuff :) when a singer started to sing in HIS/HER > key and I could instantly match them. Especially the ones that aren't > that good, but think they are hot stuff. > > OH well, enough touting for one evening. I better go take a humble > pill. > > Neil > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/      
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY?? From: "Ray Ahrens" <ray_ahrens@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:48:01 CDT   > >First, there are tracker action fans all over the place. Why? because = for >smallish, low-wind instruments tracker action has various advantages over =   >EP >and other technology, simplicity and maintainability (lots of tracker >instruments over 300 years old are still playable, if a little creaky) as >well as the direct control over speaking that many find compelling. >   This thread is as old as my great-grandfather's buckskin rubber. Can we PLEASE move on?   Also, it's rather curious that your friend didn't identify him/herself. = I'd certainly like to know whom to avoid for organ advice.               ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Have I been misinformed?? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 19:00:16   At 09:13 AM 5/31/2000 +0800, you wrote: >> >>Perfect pitch as far as I am concerned is the ability to pitch a note >> given a reference note.<snip>   Scientists call this "relative pitch". "Perfect pitch" refers to the ability of the brain to memorize a given frequency standard and compare incoming signals to that to check pitch accuracy. Being able to simply discern proper interval relationships, and their tuning, is relative = pitch. Somehow, these two terms have been used interchangably, which is = incorrect.   Sources: Johnson, "Human Engineering", 1936, various Bell Labs papers on acoustics and musical phenomena.   DeserTBoB  
(back) Subject: Re: tracker theatre organs... WHY?? From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:33:23 EDT   In a message dated 5/30/00 9:48:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ray_ahrens@hotmail.com writes:   << This thread is as old as my great-grandfather's buckskin rubber. Can we PLEASE move on? Also, it's rather curious that your friend didn't identify him/herself. = I'd certainly like to know whom to avoid for organ advice. >> Ditto!   Alan B.  
(back) Subject: Re: Have I been misinformed?? From: <Innkawgneeto@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:55:15 -0400 (EDT)   Thank u brother Bob.