PipeChat Digest #2069 - Sunday, April 29, 2001
 
Olivier Latry in Sydney
  by "Mark Quarmby" <markq@flex.com.au>
Re: new mp3 added
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: I speak for myself (no anger here) x post Re: A Very 	 SimpleQuestion
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Scott's Remarks, try this!
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
Latin
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
In Response to Miss Lite Pointe and Others...x post
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Does anyone know how to turn off the =3D20s??????? xpost
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: I speak for myself (no anger here) x post Re: A Very  SimpleQuestion
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Latin (slightly off-topic)
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
 

(back) Subject: Olivier Latry in Sydney From: "Mark Quarmby" <markq@flex.com.au> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 21:03:33 +1000   Sydney, Australia has had a feast of organ music this past week with the third visit by the outstanding French organist, Olivier Latry. It was grea= t not only to hear him play and watch him teach, but to share a meal with him and enjoy his great sense of humour, be the conversation in English or French. It was also exhilarating to not be able to see an empty seat anywhere in St Mary's cathedral, which I am told seats about 2,500! Pastor de Lasala has written an excellent review of his recital for the next edition of the "Sydney Organ Journal" and has allowed me to post it to thi= s list.   Cheers,   Mark     Olivier Latry at St Mary=B9s Cathedral, Sydney   How many readers of this article were around in 1939 to hear the legendary Marcel Dupr=E9 at the Sydney Town Hall? Many a time this author, who had hardly drawn his first stop in the year of Dupr=E9=B9s death, has pondered what it was like to have heard that great master=B9s Sydney recital performed sixty-two years ago. It is true that Dupr=E9 was a phenomenon of his time; ye= t today, it is not unknown for organists to revel in the hagiography of this man, be it an allusion to his prodigious memory, his phenomenal technique, his outstanding compositions or even the boundless inventiveness of his improvisations. The historic event of Dupr=E9=B9s visit to these shores is lon= g past, and all the wishing in the world cannot take us back in time to experience or relive it. However, historic events are not confined to the past: they also happen in our lifetime: the recital given by Olivier Latry at St Mary=B9s Cathedral, Sydney, at 3 p.m. on 25 April 2001 will certainly remain fresh in the memories of many for year to come. Latry is certainly one of the greatest organists in the world, and a prime torch-bearer of the fabulous French organ tradition. Those who encountered the Latry phenomenon during his first visit at the Great Hall of the University of Sydney in 1989, and then at the Sydney Town Hall in 1994 knew that they wer= e assured of an unforgettable experience on this sunny first ANZAC Day of the twenty-first century.   St Mary=B9s Cathedral is the largest church building in Australia, and it is not unknown for a crowd of four thousand to cram its vast nave for Easter and Christmas Masses. In realistic terms, William Wardell=B9s recently completed neo-gothic masterpiece can comfortably accommodate two and a half thousand in the pews, and it was extremely gratifying to see most of these places securely occupied at this recital. In these days when an organ recital can barely draw two dozen stalwarts, today=B9s recital was an unmitigated success, given the volume of the audience who patiently lined u= p for their tickets outside the eastern transept. Within half an hour before the starting time places were becoming more scarce. Within moments prior t= o the opening item the entire nave had filled to capacity. Apart from the guest artist, the other attraction at St Mary=B9s was the new opus 64 L=E9tourneau organ which is sited on a loft in the western transept. Just after three o=B9clock Olivier Latry emerged from the eastern transept and mad= e his way to the gargantuan four manual mobile console which had been placed at an angle in front of a pillar to the left of the altar rail. This maste= r console, a latter day Cavaill=E9-Coll model complete with terraced rows of well over a hundred and forty drawknobs, controls two of the cathedral=B9s four organs, namely the L=E9tourneau organ in the West and the older Whitehouse =8Cgrand organ=B9 in the South.   Though Dupr=E9 was not present in body, he was there in spirit by way of thre= e items on the programme; the first item was Dupr=E9=B9s well-known transcription of J.S. Bach=B9s Sinfonia to the Cantata no. 29 "Wir danken dir, Gott". From the first note of this felicitous work, Latry exuded authority and consummate control of his instrument, or rather instruments since both the L=E9tourneau and Whitehouse spoke simultaneously and in a complementary way from their respective lofts.   One of the great delights of an organ recital is the occasion where an unknown or even neglected work surfaces. Who can recall hearing anything o= f Widor=B9s Seventh Symphony? From this work was selected the second movement, a beautiful chorale. From the exuberance of the Bach, which had just dissolved into the Basilica=B9s celestial ambience, there came a luscious sea of sound with an abundance of foundation stops. Latry, always sensitive to the all-important dimensions that organ tone can afford, effectively featured the Swell 8=B9 and 2=B9 flutes of the distant Southern organ.   From Widor the programme moved to Vierne=B9s "Carillon de Westminster" the best-known work from the famous "24 Pi=E8ces de fantaisie". The inclusion o= f this piece very conveniently acted as a foil to the bell ringing which had taken place for over an hour prior to the concert, the occasion being part of an International Striking Competition held in Sydney throughout the week= .. It is worth noting that St Mary=B9s Cathedral has an exceptionally fine peal of fourteen bells in its central tower. The L=E9tourneau Swell division proved very effective in the opening and central sections. Together with this can be included the marvellous Contra Bourdon 32=B9 which rolled and purred around the nave, underpinning the magical effects of the closed swel= l division. It was in this work that Latry gave the first hints of the powerful instrument under his hands and feet as a triumphal and exciting crescendo closed the piece.   The first half of the programme concluded with two works, both by Dupr=E9. The first of these was a delightful and very short prelude of thirty-four bars "In Dulci Jubilo". Drawn from the "Seventy-Nine Chorales" op. 28, these pithy works are based upon chorales used by Bach and can be considere= d as Dupr=E9=B9s practical answer to the Orgelb=FCchlein. Again, the audience was treated with an out-of-the-ordinary work which was suitably coloured with the beautiful L=E9tourneau string stops, most notably the Voix C=E9leste which wafted around the lofty edifice and joined in a symphony of light from the exquisite Hardman of Birmingham stained-glass windows. The real tour de force of the first half was the fiendishly difficult Prelude and Fugue in B op 7 no 1. It was a delight to hear this in place of the more regularly played G Minor work of the same set, and what a display was given! Once more Latry unflaggingly communicated excitement to his listeners.   Following a fifteen-minute interval the recital resumed to Jehan Alain=B9s important triptych "Trois Dances". This twenty-minute work may rightly be considered as the last organ piece of the tragically short-lived Alain. Latry=B9s rhythmic prowess came to the fore here. Who can forget the complex =8Cswing=B9 rhythm of those opening bars of the first dance, "Joies"? Belying the extreme activity required at the console for this composition, there wa= s never a wasted gesture by this agile performer whose demeanour radiated calmness from beginning to end. This too was one discipline, which Dupr=E9 demanded of his students: excessive gestures at the console are wasted energy! Here was exemplified to all present how a difficult work should be made to appear effortless in execution.   The allusions to Dupr=E9 do not stop here; there was one aspect of this recital which has not yet been commented on. Latry performed his entire programme from memory. Many a time the author recalls Norman Johnston commenting during his lessons with words to the effect of "Dupr=E9 memorised his music by playing each bar sixteen times". What a thought to make one shudder! Latry=B9s memory is phenomenal, as is his endless stamina for what is really very hard work. It is a fact that Latry can drive himself for stretches of six to seven hours of practice at a time. To watch him in action at the console is a rare privilege for those allowed to witness it. His seemingly effortless actions over the manuals and pedals are mind-blowing. Furthermore, there is no score to be seen on the music desk: in rehearsal, selected sections are drawn as if from thin air, and are relentlessly worked upon. Latry is a consummate perfectionist where nothin= g but the highest standard will be tolerated. He will search for that special tonal colour until he finds it, and once it has been found, he will abide b= y it.   The most engaging aspect of the programme was the final item: Improvisation= .. This art, strangely enough, is shared by organists and jazz musicians alike= .. After Latry took his bow following the Alain, a young boy presented the ma=EEtre with a sealed envelope containing a piece of manuscript bearing two themes. The first of these was the opening eight bars of the Last Post, most fitting for ANZAC Day. The second was the hymn tune "O God Our Help i= n Ages Past" (St Anne). Each theme was played before being magically transformed into a work lasting around twelve minutes. Latry treated both themes in turn before combining them and thereby leading to a triumphal conclusion. Such a musical coup led to the inevitable call for an encore item whereupon Latry burst forth with a brilliant rendition of Alain=B9s "Litanies". The relentless drive of this work sprung forth with machine-gu= n precision. Never before had this author heard the tempo marking "Vivo" taken at such a break-neck pace!   Indeed, the recital at St Mary=B9s Cathedral was a truly historic event. For those who have never witnessed Dupr=E9 first hand, it would not be an exaggeration to declare that Latry must surely equal, if not surpass, that master from the past. From the outset, the recitalist was at one with his instrument and repertoire. Credit for the success of this recital must als= o be given to the tireless efforts of Peter Kneeshaw, Principal Organist of S= t Mary=B9s Cathedral and to the Cathedral authorities who made this recital possible.   St Mary=B9s Cathedral can now, at long last, boast a new, worthy instrument within its hallowed walls. This organ, principally designed as an instrumen= t to accompany the choir and liturgy, combines successfully with the modest southern instrument to form a relatively cohesive whole. That said, one might be forgiven for pondering on the effect of a truly grand cathedral organ in the southern gallery. The mobile console has provision for a Romantic French style organ of four manuals and eight-three stops. Perhaps with the towering success of this =AD and other recitals =AD might one presume that such an instrument might become a reality in the not so distant future= ?   Past=F3r de Lasala 25 April, 2001      
(back) Subject: Re: new mp3 added From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 07:34:41 -0400   I could have gone to 'mp3.com', but I chose not to. I want to see who's taking my files, and with mp3.com, I can't do that. If someone wants my files, and I'm not online, so be it. They'll have to try again. I'm = sticking with Napster, thank you very much.   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: I speak for myself (no anger here) x post Re: A Very SimpleQuestion From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 06:52:39 -0500   Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:   > I will use Latin in a concert, but I prefer to use English in > worship > settings (particularly Sunday mornings).   We generally use the Latin text of anthems in church if that is the original version. As others have pointed out it has a mystical quality that can enhance the worship experience and within proportion I think there is a place for it. However, the Rector (my wife, who has a degree in Latin from Bryn Mawr and a doctorate in fourth-century Latin Patristics from Oxford) has laid down the following rule to prevent things getting out of hand: The offertory anthem or communion anthem may be in Latin, or one piece of the proper (Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus & Benedictus, Agnus Dei) may be in Latin, but not more than one of the above at any one service. An exception is made for the Easter Vigil, which is a service where a mystical approach is particularly appropriate, where all of the propers can be done in Latin. I believe that some churches have stopped using Latin in services altogether; I think a while back the Cathedral of St. John the Divine was one of these. Does anyone know what their current practice is?   John Speller St. Mark's Episcopal Church, St. Louis.    
(back) Subject: Scott's Remarks, try this! From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:19:05 -0400   Gee Scott, don't you know that you're all wrong. People today need simple anthems. Don't forget the multiple modulations to inspire the congregation. Also a good idea to use anthems that have multiple familiar hymns. Any anthem that uses Holy Holy Holy is a big hit! And you'll be all the rage with the youth in the congregation, they really think this style is cool, just ask one of them!   One other good point, get a big video screen and show soothing video clips of trees and flowers and some religious icons too, while the choir leads the congregation dancing through the flowers with Jesus!   You just have to join the DDOAC, You'll find most new young pastors and some old ones their too. They can offer up lots of great ideas! I'm not sure of their address but ask just about any church that is thinking of ways to grow in numbers, or even some of your critics and they can get your membership information. Just ask for "Dumbing Down Of American Churches"   I guess my sarcasm just goes to point how sad it is that so many churches think the answer is to to be all things to all people, both musically and in doctrine, that no one has any identity of their own. Wayne Grauel      
(back) Subject: Latin From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:42:20 EDT     --part1_d1.5cb33b6.281d662c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   We use the Latin if that is the original edition or language of a piece = (ie:=3D =3D20 not edited or "arranged.") But this year, we did the Sequence for Easter = an=3D d=3D20 the Pange Lingua in English, yes I was fully aware of what I was doing = =3D20=3D =3D3Do)=3D20 and the congregational participation was 500% better (on the = Pange=3D20 Lingua, they didn't sing the sequence, only the choirs or cantors).   SCOTT F. FOPPIANO, Principal Organist and Director of Music and Liturgy THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI (Geo. Kilgen & Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) =3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat dicens, fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D     --part1_d1.5cb33b6.281d662c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>We use the Latin if = that=3D20=3D is the original edition or language of a piece (ie:=3D20 <BR>not edited or "arranged.") &nbsp;But this year, we did the Sequence = for=3D20=3D Easter and=3D20 <BR>the Pange Lingua in English, yes I was fully aware of what I was doing = &=3D nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D3Do)=3D20 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and the congregational participation was 500% = be=3D tter (on the Pange=3D20 <BR>Lingua, they didn't sing the sequence, only the choirs or cantors). <BR> <BR><B>SCOTT F. FOPPIANO</B>, Principal Organist and Director of Music and = L=3D iturgy <BR>THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI <BR>(Geo. Kilgen &amp; Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) <BR><I>=3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat = dicens, <BR>fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D</I> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_d1.5cb33b6.281d662c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: In Response to Miss Lite Pointe and Others...x post From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:52:11 EDT     --part1_85.a550ba7.281d687b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   He will probably kill me for this, however, I wish to share with the = lists=3D20 and all of you a response from a good friend and colleague. I wish to = also=3D20 point out that the individual who wrote this is younger than I, and I am = 35.=3D =3D20 It is brilliantly worded and expresses ideas that I either left out or = did=3D20 not convey well through my own words.   -SFF (keep reading...)   His response:   I don't know who you are, but =3DA0I would ask you to reveal your = identity.=3D20=3D =3DA0I=3D20 don't pay any attention to letters that are not addressed with a = legitimate=3D20 sender's name. =3DA0What is your problem with the posts? =3DA0Scott's = postings a=3D re=3D20 from deeply ingrained ideas that he is passionate about. =3DA0We don't = have to=3D =3D20 agree with him. His points are just as valid as yours are. =3DA0I think = that=3D20 there is nothing wrong with wanting to further the cause of good = church=3D20 music, especially in a denomination known for poor quality music. = =3DA0Glory a=3D nd=3D20 Praise and most modern Catholic music is completely different from what = had=3D20 been composed for and used in the Catholic church for well over a = thousand=3D20 years. =3DA0The Catholic church was the cultural pinnacle of the world for = man=3D y=3D20 years.....it's clergy were the patrons of many of the composers, = sculptors=3D20 and other artists who defined artistic excellence. =3DA0God demands = the=3D20 best...there is no exception. =3DA0What is wrong with Scott trying to get = othe=3D rs=3D20 to raise their standards? Church music has been influenced by many outside sources over the past 15 = or=3D =3D20 20 years. =3DA0What was once holy is now bastardized by rock and roll = influenc=3D es.=3D20 =3DA0We should all strive to promote, educate, and preserve the best of = church=3D =3D20 music. While he might come off as very opinionated and what may sometimes even = seem=3D =3D20 rude is just his extreme passion for the best. =3DA0If you don't like what = he=3D20=3D has=3D20 to say, delete his messages from the lists when they come to your = email.=3D20 =3DA0What you need to give thought to is how you can better church music = and w=3D hat=3D20 you can do to continue to make yourself a better church musician, which = in=3D20 turn, will further the cause of giving God the best music possible. = =3DA0Music=3D is=3D20 the art that God gave to man so that man could turn around and give it = back=3D20 to God through worship. =3DA0We can't give God anything less than our = best.         --part1_85.a550ba7.281d687b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>He will probably = kill me=3D20=3D for this, however, I wish to share with the lists=3D20 <BR>and all of you a response from a good friend and colleague. &nbsp;I = wish=3D to also=3D20 <BR>point out that the individual who wrote this is younger than I, and I = am=3D 35. &nbsp; <BR>It is brilliantly worded and expresses ideas that I either left out or = d=3D id=3D20 <BR>not convey well through my own words. <BR> <BR>-SFF (keep reading...) <BR> <BR>His response: <BR> <BR>I don't know who you are, but =3DA0I would ask you to reveal your = identity=3D .. =3DA0I=3D20 <BR>don't pay any attention to letters that are not addressed with a = legitim=3D ate=3D20 <BR>sender's name. =3DA0What is your problem with the posts? =3DA0Scott's = postin=3D gs are=3D20 <BR>from deeply ingrained ideas that he is passionate about. =3DA0We don't = hav=3D e to=3D20 <BR>agree with him. His points are just as valid as yours are. =3DA0I = think th=3D at=3D20 <BR>there is nothing wrong with wanting to further the cause of good = church=3D20 <BR>music, especially in a denomination known for poor quality music. = =3DA0Glo=3D ry and=3D20 <BR>Praise and most modern Catholic music is completely different from = what=3D20=3D had=3D20 <BR>been composed for and used in the Catholic church for well over a = thousa=3D nd=3D20 <BR>years. =3DA0The Catholic church was the cultural pinnacle of the world = for=3D many=3D20 <BR>years.....it's clergy were the patrons of many of the composers, sculpto=3D rs=3D20 <BR>and other artists who defined artistic excellence. =3DA0God demands = the=3D20 <BR>best...there is no exception. =3DA0What is wrong with Scott trying to = get=3D20=3D others=3D20 <BR>to raise their standards? <BR>Church music has been influenced by many outside sources over the past = 1=3D 5 or=3D20 <BR>20 years. =3DA0What was once holy is now bastardized by rock and roll = infl=3D uences.=3D20 <BR>=3DA0We should all strive to promote, educate, and preserve the best = of ch=3D urch=3D20 <BR>music. <BR>While he might come off as very opinionated and what may sometimes = even=3D20=3D seem=3D20 <BR>rude is just his extreme passion for the best. =3DA0If you don't like = what=3D he has=3D20 <BR>to say, delete his messages from the lists when they come to your = email.=3D =3D20 <BR>=3DA0What you need to give thought to is how you can better church = music a=3D nd what=3D20 <BR>you can do to continue to make yourself a better church musician, = which=3D20=3D in=3D20 <BR>turn, will further the cause of giving God the best music possible. = =3DA0M=3D usic is=3D20 <BR>the art that God gave to man so that man could turn around and give it = b=3D ack=3D20 <BR>to God through worship. =3DA0We can't give God anything less than our = best=3D .. <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_85.a550ba7.281d687b_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Does anyone know how to turn off the =3D20s??????? xpost From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 08:57:26 EDT     --part1_104.298f9a6.281d69b6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   Can anyone instruct me in the procedure for resetting my AOL email so that = m=3D y=3D20 posts do not have the =3D3D20 after each line? I know it is extremely = annoyin=3D g=3D20 and very difficult to read, and I apologize, but the AOL tech that I = spoke=3D20 with had no clue. (Ask me if I am surprised!) But if anyone knows how = to=3D20 alleviate this problem I will gladly try it.   SCOTT F. FOPPIANO, Principal Organist and Director of Music and Liturgy THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI (Geo. Kilgen & Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) =3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat dicens, fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D     --part1_104.298f9a6.281d69b6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3D2>Can anyone instruct = me in=3D the procedure for resetting my AOL email so that my=3D20 <BR>posts do not have the =3D3D20 after each line? &nbsp;I know it is = extremel=3D y annoying=3D20 <BR>and very difficult to read, and I apologize, but the AOL tech that I = spo=3D ke=3D20 <BR>with had no clue. &nbsp;(Ask me if I am surprised!) &nbsp;But if = anyone=3D20=3D knows how to=3D20 <BR>alleviate this problem I will gladly try it. <BR> <BR><B>SCOTT F. FOPPIANO</B>, Principal Organist and Director of Music and = L=3D iturgy <BR>THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI <BR>(Geo. Kilgen &amp; Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) <BR><I>=3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat = dicens, <BR>fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D</I> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_104.298f9a6.281d69b6_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: I speak for myself (no anger here) x post Re: A Very SimpleQuestion From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:10:27 +0800   Well my church is not RC and not clappy-happy. We are UCA (ex-Methodist). We sing traditional hymns and anthems. Still nothing wrong with Latin in church music. Just my opinion of course but the congregation seems to agree. Bob Elms.   Bob Scarborough wrote: > > At 13:45 4/29/2001 +0800, you wrote: > >Nothing wrong with Latin in liturgical music. Often better than the > >translation!<snip> > > Hmmmm...there we go! the quick 'n easy cure for "happy/clappy/7-11 > music"...translate all those banal, idiotic lyrics into Latin! No one = will > know just how bad it really is that way! Worked for the RCs for = centuries.... > > dB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE: http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Latin (slightly off-topic) From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:15:22 -0400   > If one has at > least two years of Latin, one will ALWAYS test far above the mean in = terms > of vocabulary skills, if not grammatical. It, along with Greek, is an > absolute requirement (or should be) for anyone seriously studying the > sciences, law or philosophy. > > Latin's simple, logical grammatical structure....   You've hit the nail squarely on the head here, desertJackalope! These are =   excellent, pragmatic reasons for teaching Latin in secondary schools. = Others have also alluded to other good reasons why Latin should be taught again, = and also Classical Greek. The simple, logical structure reinforces good = grammar in learners' native language. The main purpose of teaching Latin, or any other foreign language for that matter, was to give students tools for structured thought in their own language.   Also, much of modern English vocabulary has roots in Latin (often via = Norman French) and much of scientific vocabulary includes Greek roots, as well. Hydro-electric, helicopter, pneumatic, pragmatic, dynamo, dynamite, = technical, nuclear, atomic, meter, rhythm - I could go on and on - are examples of = Greek based words used in everyday English.   The quirks of English are due to the fact that it is a hodgepodge language =   with a Germanic grammatical skeleton clothed with Norman French = vocabulary. One of my favorite quotes from usenet was, "...modern English is the = result of Saxon girls going up to Norman knights and asking the 11th century = equivalent of 'we go PX now, big boy?'" Much of the grammar changed significantly at =   that time as new forms were introduced to accommodate them.   The push in the 60's and 70's to rid the American public school system of anything that was not perceived as "relevant" has probably been one of the =   most detrimental movements in American educational history. That was when = the classics were booted out and, for that matter, that was also when having = any foreign language requirements at all was put to question, and in many = places also booted out. I guess we can't stem the tide any more than King Cnut could.   And finally, as others have pointed out, another good reason for teaching Latin is that Western liturgy has Latin roots spanning almost two full millennia. This is true even for Protestant churches. The fact that = Latin was used as a vehicle for worship in the Roman church (until recently) provided a unity of worship throughout the RC world. It did not matter = where you went, what language you spoke, what language the locals spoke - the liturgy was pretty much the same everywhere. Minor differences in pronunciation were trivial.   I grew up Baptist. I discovered the beauty of liturgical worship much = later in life and agree with others that the original is often much more = beautiful than translations.   Getting off my hobby horse now. Cheers, TommyLee