PipeChat Digest #2284 - Saturday, August 4, 2001
 
Re: Theatreorgans
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: Nicking and DeNicking pipes
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: Nicking and DeNicking pipes
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
RE.:   NICKING & DE-NICKING
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: RE.:   NICKING & DE-NICKING
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Theatreorgans From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:31:07 -0400   Dear Jon, I have been having problems logging on to that web site. I don't think it is up right now. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon C." <opus1100@catoe.org> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 12:23 AM Subject: Theatreorgans     > It would appear that Jerrell is continuing to have ISP problems....I = have > not received any Theatreorgan-l > messages, cannot download email, no log onto the theatreorgan page. Is > anyone else having problems > accessing these. > > jch > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Nicking and DeNicking pipes From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 12:09:05 -0500   Perhaps so, but nicking definitely was, and probably still is sometimes o= verdone. This was especially true during the period of "industrial" organbuilding = when we hear stories about the nicks even being put in by the pipemakers. Yes, i= t makes pipes easier to voice, but at what a loss in artistic voicing! We had = a voicing   demonstration at one of our AIO conventions, at which three organbuilders demonstrated their style. It was quite revealing: The first simply did = the cut- up, adjusted the languid for proper speech, and the pipe was voiced. "Yo= u don't doctor the pipe". The second fiddled and fiddled with the cut-up, position of the languid and upper lip, windway, nicking, etc, and was nev= er quite satisfied with the result on the voicing machine. The third voicer installed eight deep nicks before any thing else was done to the pipe! Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle path, but there is no substitute for act= ually listening to the pipe in the room where it will be heard. Then treat it accordingly! Our rooms are much to variable to be dogmatic about these things. Roy   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:   > Hi Mike: > > Did you read my piece Nicking and the Science of doing it! Every builde= r > had his own nicking secrets. That would be a part of the organ lore tha= t > will be lost unless someone takes the time and interest to study it and > compile a book on each one. Metal and wood density, shape of the > mouth were all apart of the mix. You might want to start on the big > Severence Hall Skinner. Reeds were voiced based on the shape of the > shallot, the reed tongue density, whether the shallot was leathered or > smooth, the slot or cap at the top of the pipes, and the resonator shap= e. > Metal content, lead to pure tin. Thickness of the pipe walls, the shape > of the languids, some were inverted. The wind presures used. Cavaille > Coll used 3, 5 or sometimes 7 different wind pressures on certain > stops. Are the pipes overblown double length harmonic? Size and > shape of the wind reservoirs, double rise, triple rise. Were the flues > slotted? Size of the pipe scales, and the relative size of the room. > All of this until recently had to be done by instinct, learned experien= ce > from others without the luxury of computer aids and CADS. All was worke= d > out before a saw cut one piece of wood, or metal melted into sheets. > And yes the nicks were determined before the pipes were even made. > These men built these organs in their mind first before they ever went = out the > door as a reality. > > I guess that's why I appreciate pipe organs more now than I ever did as= a > youngster. > > Regards, > > Ron Severin > > http://www.musicbase.org/E/SEV001.html > http://www.churchorgansystems.com.html/products > Fax:1-208-439-6781 > Church Organ Systems of Orange County > J=E4ger und Brommer Orgelbau > St. Mary's by the Sea > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Nicking and DeNicking pipes From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 15:31:25 -0400     Thanks for the instruction Roy and Ron. This is so much better than = processed cheese filler. It would seem nicking (and de-nicking) is a function of the = finisher's ear in the acoustic of the instrument's final location, and can be no more = pre-ordained than tuning. Is it possible to describe in more detail exactly how nicking = variables change the sound?     Roy Redman wrote:   > Perhaps so, but nicking definitely was, and probably still is sometimes = overdone. > This was especially true during the period of "industrial" organbuilding = when we > hear stories about the nicks even being put in by the pipemakers. Yes, = it makes > pipes easier to voice, but at what a loss in artistic voicing! We had = a voicing > > demonstration at one of our AIO conventions, at which three = organbuilders > demonstrated their style. It was quite revealing: The first simply did = the cut- > up, adjusted the languid for proper speech, and the pipe was voiced. = "You > don't doctor the pipe". The second fiddled and fiddled with the cut-up, > position of the languid and upper lip, windway, nicking, etc, and was = never > quite satisfied with the result on the voicing machine. The third = voicer > installed > eight deep nicks before any thing else was done to the pipe! Perhaps = the > truth is somewhere in the middle path, but there is no substitute for = actually > listening to the pipe in the room where it will be heard. Then treat it > accordingly! > Our rooms are much to variable to be dogmatic about these things. > Roy > > RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Mike: > > > > Did you read my piece Nicking and the Science of doing it! Every = builder > > had his own nicking secrets. That would be a part of the organ lore = that > > will be lost unless someone takes the time and interest to study it = and > > compile a book on each one. Metal and wood density, shape of the > > mouth were all apart of the mix. You might want to start on the big > > Severence Hall Skinner. Reeds were voiced based on the shape of the > > shallot, the reed tongue density, whether the shallot was leathered or > > smooth, the slot or cap at the top of the pipes, and the resonator = shape. > > Metal content, lead to pure tin. Thickness of the pipe walls, the = shape > > of the languids, some were inverted. The wind presures used. Cavaille > > Coll used 3, 5 or sometimes 7 different wind pressures on certain > > stops. Are the pipes overblown double length harmonic? Size and > > shape of the wind reservoirs, double rise, triple rise. Were the flues > > slotted? Size of the pipe scales, and the relative size of the room. > > All of this until recently had to be done by instinct, learned = experience > > from others without the luxury of computer aids and CADS. All was = worked > > out before a saw cut one piece of wood, or metal melted into sheets. > > And yes the nicks were determined before the pipes were even made. > > These men built these organs in their mind first before they ever went = out the > > door as a reality. > > > > I guess that's why I appreciate pipe organs more now than I ever did = as a > > youngster. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ron Severin > > > >    
(back) Subject: RE.: NICKING & DE-NICKING From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:45:45 -0700 (PDT)   Much has been said on this subject - both seriously and humorously.   I'l like to tell you about my philosophy on nicking based on my experience as a voicer at Aeolian-Skinner.   Our pipes were made without nicks, and the pipemakers certainly did not place any nicks in the languids, nor did we have a manual telling us how to arbitrarily place nicks with no regard for the final result.   Our decision to nick was based entirely on the organ placement and the acoustical environment in which the organ was to be installed. If the organ went to a resonant stone building and was encased, speaking directly into the nave, very little nicking was done and then very light nicking was done IN THE BUILDING to achieve as clear and musical a sound as possible. If, on the other hand, the organ was to be buried in deep chambers and speak indirecty into a padded cell, it would be nicked more heavily and the pipes would be cut up higher so we could sock the wind to them and blow the daylights out of the pipes in an attempt to blast as much sound out of the chambers as possible so that the organ would work. Obviously, what was gained in volume was lost in quality.   After leaving Aeolian-Skinner and coming to Texas, I installed a small organ for a company in the mid-west whose name I won't give, because I'm about to tell you what I think of their tonal work.   This organ, amoung other faults, had a Spitzflote and Celeste which were sent out with "open toes" and no nicks. The organ was installed in a padded cell and these pipes made the mose foolish spitting and sizzling sound you ever heard. I revoiced them and nicked the daylights out of them in a partialluy successful attempt to achieve a musical sound. This church found an "expert" to come inspect the organ. He didn't know a Spitzflote from a screwdriver, but he was an "expert". He liked the result and said, "NOW WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T NICK THEM!"   Actually, the best sound this organ made came out of the blower room.   There is no way to say that pipes should be nicked this way or that way, and it is absolutely preposterious to say that pipes should be completely un-nicked. The same thing applies to wind pressures. There was a time that I thought they would replace the blower with a vacuum pump and get the pipes to speak by sucking in air - but that's another subject.   D. Keith Morgan   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: RE.: NICKING & DE-NICKING From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 12:58:01 -0700 (PDT)   One thing I forgot to say was on the subject of de-nicking.   It is possible to scrape out nicks and make old pipes sound better, but the only sure-fire way to correct the situation is to send the pipes to a pipemaker and let him cut the pipes apart and install new languids. This would cost about as much as making new pipes, so the pipes would have to be pretty darned good to begin with to make this practical. The the pipes could then be voiced fresh with no nicking, or light nicking as required.   D. Keith Morgan --- douglas morgan <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> wrote: > Much has been said on this subject - both seriously > and humorously. > > I'l like to tell you about my philosophy on nicking > based on my experience as a voicer at > Aeolian-Skinner. > > Our pipes were made without nicks, and the > pipemakers > certainly did not place any nicks in the languids, > nor > did we have a manual telling us how to arbitrarily > place nicks with no regard for the final result. > > Our decision to nick was based entirely on the organ > placement and the acoustical environment in which > the > organ was to be installed. If the organ went to a > resonant stone building and was encased, speaking > directly into the nave, very little nicking was done > and then very light nicking was done IN THE BUILDING > to achieve as clear and musical a sound as possible. > > If, on the other hand, the organ was to be buried in > deep chambers and speak indirecty into a padded > cell, > it would be nicked more heavily and the pipes would > be > cut up higher so we could sock the wind to them and > blow the daylights out of the pipes in an attempt to > blast as much sound out of the chambers as possible > so > that the organ would work. Obviously, what was > gained > in volume was lost in quality. > > After leaving Aeolian-Skinner and coming to Texas, I > installed a small organ for a company in the > mid-west > whose name I won't give, because I'm about to tell > you > what I think of their tonal work. > > This organ, amoung other faults, had a Spitzflote > and > Celeste which were sent out with "open toes" and no > nicks. The organ was installed in a padded cell and > these pipes made the mose foolish spitting and > sizzling sound you ever heard. I revoiced them and > nicked the daylights out of them in a partialluy > successful attempt to achieve a musical sound. This > church found an "expert" to come inspect the organ. > He didn't know a Spitzflote from a screwdriver, but > he > was an "expert". He liked the result and said, "NOW > WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T NICK THEM!" > > Actually, the best sound this organ made came out of > the blower room. > > There is no way to say that pipes should be nicked > this way or that way, and it is absolutely > preposterious to say that pipes should be completely > un-nicked. The same thing applies to wind > pressures. > There was a time that I thought they would replace > the > blower with a vacuum pump and get the pipes to speak > by sucking in air - but that's another subject. > > D. Keith Morgan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:12:41 -0400   TO the list, I don't know why those nicks can't be filled with heated solder and then smoothed and burnished. From what I see of the pipes that I have, it should not prove too difficult. The result would act just like the nicks never existed. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> To: "PIPECHAT" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 3:45 PM Subject: RE.: NICKING & DE-NICKING     > Much has been said on this subject - both seriously > and humorously. > > I'l like to tell you about my philosophy on nicking > based on my experience as a voicer at Aeolian-Skinner. > > Our pipes were made without nicks, and the pipemakers > certainly did not place any nicks in the languids, nor > did we have a manual telling us how to arbitrarily > place nicks with no regard for the final result. > > Our decision to nick was based entirely on the organ > placement and the acoustical environment in which the > organ was to be installed. If the organ went to a > resonant stone building and was encased, speaking > directly into the nave, very little nicking was done > and then very light nicking was done IN THE BUILDING > to achieve as clear and musical a sound as possible. > If, on the other hand, the organ was to be buried in > deep chambers and speak indirecty into a padded cell, > it would be nicked more heavily and the pipes would be > cut up higher so we could sock the wind to them and > blow the daylights out of the pipes in an attempt to > blast as much sound out of the chambers as possible so > that the organ would work. Obviously, what was gained > in volume was lost in quality. > > After leaving Aeolian-Skinner and coming to Texas, I > installed a small organ for a company in the mid-west > whose name I won't give, because I'm about to tell you > what I think of their tonal work. > > This organ, amoung other faults, had a Spitzflote and > Celeste which were sent out with "open toes" and no > nicks. The organ was installed in a padded cell and > these pipes made the mose foolish spitting and > sizzling sound you ever heard. I revoiced them and > nicked the daylights out of them in a partialluy > successful attempt to achieve a musical sound. This > church found an "expert" to come inspect the organ. > He didn't know a Spitzflote from a screwdriver, but he > was an "expert". He liked the result and said, "NOW > WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T NICK THEM!" > > Actually, the best sound this organ made came out of > the blower room. > > There is no way to say that pipes should be nicked > this way or that way, and it is absolutely > preposterious to say that pipes should be completely > un-nicked. The same thing applies to wind pressures. > There was a time that I thought they would replace the > blower with a vacuum pump and get the pipes to speak > by sucking in air - but that's another subject. > > D. Keith Morgan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 13:52:46 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Paul:   Just try filling nicks with heated solder and you'll see very quickly why it can't be done. Just be sure you're not working on a good organ.   D. Keith Morgan --- Paul Valtos <chercapa@enter.net> wrote: > TO the list, > I don't know why those nicks can't be filled > with heated solder and > then smoothed and burnished. From what I see of the > pipes that I have, it > should not prove too difficult. The result would act > just like the nicks > never existed. > > Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> > To: "PIPECHAT" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 3:45 PM > Subject: RE.: NICKING & DE-NICKING > > > > Much has been said on this subject - both > seriously > > and humorously. > > > > I'l like to tell you about my philosophy on > nicking > > based on my experience as a voicer at > Aeolian-Skinner. > > > > Our pipes were made without nicks, and the > pipemakers > > certainly did not place any nicks in the languids, > nor > > did we have a manual telling us how to arbitrarily > > place nicks with no regard for the final result. > > > > Our decision to nick was based entirely on the > organ > > placement and the acoustical environment in which > the > > organ was to be installed. If the organ went to a > > resonant stone building and was encased, speaking > > directly into the nave, very little nicking was > done > > and then very light nicking was done IN THE > BUILDING > > to achieve as clear and musical a sound as > possible. > > If, on the other hand, the organ was to be buried > in > > deep chambers and speak indirecty into a padded > cell, > > it would be nicked more heavily and the pipes > would be > > cut up higher so we could sock the wind to them > and > > blow the daylights out of the pipes in an attempt > to > > blast as much sound out of the chambers as > possible so > > that the organ would work. Obviously, what was > gained > > in volume was lost in quality. > > > > After leaving Aeolian-Skinner and coming to Texas, > I > > installed a small organ for a company in the > mid-west > > whose name I won't give, because I'm about to tell > you > > what I think of their tonal work. > > > > This organ, amoung other faults, had a Spitzflote > and > > Celeste which were sent out with "open toes" and > no > > nicks. The organ was installed in a padded cell > and > > these pipes made the mose foolish spitting and > > sizzling sound you ever heard. I revoiced them > and > > nicked the daylights out of them in a partialluy > > successful attempt to achieve a musical sound. > This > > church found an "expert" to come inspect the > organ. > > He didn't know a Spitzflote from a screwdriver, > but he > > was an "expert". He liked the result and said, > "NOW > > WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T NICK THEM!" > > > > Actually, the best sound this organ made came out > of > > the blower room. > > > > There is no way to say that pipes should be nicked > > this way or that way, and it is absolutely > > preposterious to say that pipes should be > completely > > un-nicked. The same thing applies to wind > pressures. > > There was a time that I thought they would replace > the > > blower with a vacuum pump and get the pipes to > speak > > by sucking in air - but that's another subject. > > > > D. Keith Morgan > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 17:18:55 -0400   Dear Doug, I guess it would have to do with the kind of metal the pipes = were made of. I have some 1920 Moller pipes that have such a degree of lead in them they could be used as a weapon.If you use those low temp, pinpoint soldering irons like those used in electronic, it should work without warping anything, Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:52 PM Subject: Re: NICKING & DE-NICKING     > Dear Paul: > > Just try filling nicks with heated solder and you'll > see very quickly why it can't be done. Just be sure > you're not working on a good organ. > > D. Keith Morgan > --- Paul Valtos <chercapa@enter.net> wrote: > > TO the list, > > I don't know why those nicks can't be filled > > with heated solder and > > then smoothed and burnished. From what I see of the > > pipes that I have, it > > should not prove too difficult. The result would act > > just like the nicks > > never existed. > > > > Paul > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> > > To: "PIPECHAT" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > > Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 3:45 PM > > Subject: RE.: NICKING & DE-NICKING > > > > > > > Much has been said on this subject - both > > seriously > > > and humorously. > > > > > > I'l like to tell you about my philosophy on > > nicking > > > based on my experience as a voicer at > > Aeolian-Skinner. > > > > > > Our pipes were made without nicks, and the > > pipemakers > > > certainly did not place any nicks in the languids, > > nor > > > did we have a manual telling us how to arbitrarily > > > place nicks with no regard for the final result. > > > > > > Our decision to nick was based entirely on the > > organ > > > placement and the acoustical environment in which > > the > > > organ was to be installed. If the organ went to a > > > resonant stone building and was encased, speaking > > > directly into the nave, very little nicking was > > done > > > and then very light nicking was done IN THE > > BUILDING > > > to achieve as clear and musical a sound as > > possible. > > > If, on the other hand, the organ was to be buried > > in > > > deep chambers and speak indirecty into a padded > > cell, > > > it would be nicked more heavily and the pipes > > would be > > > cut up higher so we could sock the wind to them > > and > > > blow the daylights out of the pipes in an attempt > > to > > > blast as much sound out of the chambers as > > possible so > > > that the organ would work. Obviously, what was > > gained > > > in volume was lost in quality. > > > > > > After leaving Aeolian-Skinner and coming to Texas, > > I > > > installed a small organ for a company in the > > mid-west > > > whose name I won't give, because I'm about to tell > > you > > > what I think of their tonal work. > > > > > > This organ, amoung other faults, had a Spitzflote > > and > > > Celeste which were sent out with "open toes" and > > no > > > nicks. The organ was installed in a padded cell > > and > > > these pipes made the mose foolish spitting and > > > sizzling sound you ever heard. I revoiced them > > and > > > nicked the daylights out of them in a partialluy > > > successful attempt to achieve a musical sound. > > This > > > church found an "expert" to come inspect the > > organ. > > > He didn't know a Spitzflote from a screwdriver, > > but he > > > was an "expert". He liked the result and said, > > "NOW > > > WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T NICK THEM!" > > > > > > Actually, the best sound this organ made came out > > of > > > the blower room. > > > > > > There is no way to say that pipes should be nicked > > > this way or that way, and it is absolutely > > > preposterious to say that pipes should be > > completely > > > un-nicked. The same thing applies to wind > > pressures. > > > There was a time that I thought they would replace > > the > > > blower with a vacuum pump and get the pipes to > > speak > > > by sucking in air - but that's another subject. > > > > > > D. Keith Morgan > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > > with Yahoo! Messenger > > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >