PipeChat Digest #2300 - Thursday, August 9, 2001
 
Bach's pedalling
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Shoes
  by <stalan@ix.netcom.com>
RE: pedalling
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: pedalling
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
Re: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by "jnathan" <jnatpat@infi.net>
Re: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by <TEvans1032@aol.com>
RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net>
RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged
  by "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net>
Re: Bach's pedalling
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Bach's pedalling
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Bach's pedalling From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 19:36:21 -0700     --------------C14A5745E298F7A52FB7C6BC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Neil, that's where you have to go to the surviving organs from the period, particularly the few that are still around that Bach actually played. The "primary sources" in this case are the organs themselves. The pedal claviers are very little longer than those on a modern spinet organ ... the only difference is that there's a tail-board, and they're hinged at the back, rather than the front. In MOST cases, you CANNOT use your heel, because there's not ROOM to put it DOWN.   That's VERY instructive when playing something like the 6-part double-pedal "Aus tiefer Not" from Clavieruebung III (my favorite example) ... the chorale melody is in the right foot; the bass part is in the left foot. IF you attempt to play the chorale melody LEGATO (which would have been IMPOSSIBLE on a flat pedal-board, and is VERY difficult on a radiating, concave pedal-board) the melody disappears into the thick six-part texture. BUT, if you play the chorale melody MARCATO, as would be dictated by toes-only, it stands out in VERY bold relief, even in that thick six-part texture.   It's also important to remember that the school of legato organ-playing more-or-less founded by Lemmons didn't come into being until the 19th century ... the 16th and 17th century theoretical writers have MANY different degrees of detachment, but the "no-light-between-the-cracks" legato of Lemmons, Franck, Stainer, the Dupre Organ Method, etc. was unknown to them. Now, that was PARTIALLY due to the short manual and pedal keyboards, but to argue for the use of 19th century legato technique in 17th and 18th century keyboard music takes us into the speculative realm of "would Bach have used a Tuba Mirabilis if he'd had one?" (grin). In point of fact, they HAD short manual and pedal keyboards, and that imposed a certain style of articulation on the music.   Cheers,   Bud   Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:   > > > >> There really isn't a single shred of direct evidence concerning >> Bach's pedaling. Further, there is hardly any more evidence from >> his pupils > > And I thought I read something not too long ago more or less > dispelling the > notion of toe-only pedalling in Baroque (I mean as an exclusive > practice). > Or the author was attempting to dispel that. > > I cannot believe that JSB, with 20 odd children, busy work schedule, > detail > personified, which to me means efficiency personified, did NOT use his > heels > when pedalling. > > But hey, what do I know? I'm just a church musician. > > Neil Brown   --------------C14A5745E298F7A52FB7C6BC Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Neil, that's where you have to go to the surviving organs from the period, particularly the few that are still around that Bach actually played. The "primary sources" in this case are the organs themselves. The pedal = claviers are very little longer than those on a modern spinet organ ... the only difference is that there's a tail-board, and they're hinged at the back, rather than the front. In MOST cases, you CANNOT use your heel, because there's not ROOM to put it DOWN. <p>That's VERY instructive when playing something like the 6-part = double-pedal "Aus tiefer Not" from Clavieruebung III (my favorite example) ... the = chorale melody is in the right foot; the bass part is in the left foot. IF you attempt to play the chorale melody LEGATO (which would have been = IMPOSSIBLE on a flat pedal-board, and is VERY difficult on a radiating, concave = pedal-board) the melody disappears into the thick six-part texture. BUT, if you play the chorale melody MARCATO, as would be dictated by toes-only, it stands out in VERY bold relief, even in that thick six-part texture. <p>It's also important to remember that the school of legato organ-playing more-or-less founded by Lemmons didn't come into being until the 19th century .... the 16th and 17th century theoretical writers have MANY different = degrees of detachment, but the "no-light-between-the-cracks" legato of Lemmons, Franck, Stainer, the Dupre Organ Method, etc. was unknown to them. Now, that was PARTIALLY due to the short manual and pedal keyboards, but to argue for the use of 19th century legato technique in 17th and 18th = century keyboard music takes us into the speculative realm of "would Bach have used a Tuba Mirabilis if he'd had one?" (grin). In point of fact, they HAD short manual and pedal keyboards, and that imposed a certain style of articulation on the music. <p>Cheers, <p>Bud <p>Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE>&nbsp; <br>&nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font = face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>There really isn't a single shred of direct evidence concerning</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>Bach's pedaling.&nbsp; = Further, there is hardly any more evidence from</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>his = pupils</font></font></blockquote>   <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>And I = thought I read something not too long ago more or less dispelling = the</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>notion of = toe-only pedalling in Baroque (I mean as an exclusive = practice).</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Or the = author was attempting to dispel that.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>I cannot = believe that JSB, with 20 odd children, busy work schedule, = detail</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>personified, which to me means efficiency personified, did NOT use his = heels</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>when = pedalling.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>But hey, = what do I know?&nbsp; I'm just a church musician.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Neil = Brown</font></font></font></blockquote>   </body> </html>   --------------C14A5745E298F7A52FB7C6BC--    
(back) Subject: Re: Shoes From: <stalan@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 21:46:41 -0500   Re: Capezzio   For the pedaling of the organ, toes only, or heel and toe... ;-) The tap oxfords. There are several models, depending upon, of course, price. The best are the ones with the soles that are sewn into the leather and have the metal "rings" in the holes where the laces are... GEESH, I do realize that I don't know a wit of shoe language. The tap oxfords are what you're looking for. Don't buy them online. Go to where you can try them on, etc. If opting for one of the less expensive models, do take them to a shoe place, and have them sew the soles into the leather and install the metal rings in the lace holes, they'll last forever that way... Well, with a few repairs here and there. I just bought a new pair after many years... wow... the price!!!   Scott Davis Austin, Texas  
(back) Subject: RE: pedalling From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:26:55 -0500   << Knees together doesn't work out very well at the either extreme of the pedalboard, only in the center portion of it. >>   I've tried this...over and over, and I can't do it. I play with my knees = at a natural, comfortable distance. Works for me.   Jeff          
(back) Subject: RE: pedalling From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:28:44 -0500   One stated that's a waste of movement and I asked if it was affecting my playing to which he stated no but it just seems like too much movement Then I'd have asked him/her what the problem was, and politely ask them to keep their eyes off my legs then! :)   Jeff          
(back) Subject: RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:32:04 -0500   If I ever become ruler of the world all organs being built will come equiped with adjustable organ benches 22" to 26" high. All will be equiped with a back rest. Well, I'll be in prison then, because the back rest would be removed at my church. I don't like them. If I had back problems, that might be different, I guess. So far, at 34, I have no issue. :) Regards, Jeff        
(back) Subject: RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:34:41 -0500   Speaking of adjustable benches, when we replaced the non-AGO console at = Holy Cross, we had a new bench built. I had a choice of having a crank = adjusted bench, or a shelf under the seat. I opted for the shelf under the seat. = We didn't think you could have BOTH. Then I played at a church with a Bosch tracker, and lo and behold, a cranking bench WITH a shelf!!   Jeff, who's missing his bench shelf.   PS: I have blocks for the bench, but only one side has slots. Anyone = know if these are custom built, and if so, can I get new ones??      
(back) Subject: Re: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: "jnathan" <jnatpat@infi.net> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:45:09 -0500   Jeff White wrote:   > Well, I'll be in prison then, because the back rest would be removed at = my > church. I don't like them.   Jeff, I don't either. Last year when we built the new church, someone = looked at the time I spent on the bench, and felt sorry for me....so they = donated a back to the bench and had it built. It was superbly done...and I HATE It. = I am 6'1, and not a small guy, and this back throws me too far forward, = causing my legs to "fall asleep", or just be very uncomfortable. If I back the = bench back to make the pedals feel comfortable, then the Swell pedal is too far away....<sigh>...I hate to say anything, since it was a heartfelt gift...suggestions, anyone?   J N P    
(back) Subject: Re: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: <TEvans1032@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:46:23 EDT     --part1_b0.187ff958.28a3618f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/8/01 10:32:21 PM Central Daylight Time, reedstop@prodigy.net writes:   I don't have a shelf or cranking bench, but I do have a table next to the bench.   Our block were made just for the Ott out of the same wood to match. They dont' have slots but small 'lips' on the edge to keep the bench from = sliding off. At concordia we had various 2x4 with different cuts to accomodate everyone.     Trav   > Jeff, who's missing his bench shelf. > > PS: I have blocks for the bench, but only one side has slots. Anyone = know > if these are custom built, and if so, can I get new ones?? >       --part1_b0.187ff958.28a3618f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/8/01 10:32:21 PM Central Daylight Time, <BR>reedstop@prodigy.net writes: <BR> <BR>I don't have a shelf or cranking bench, but I do have a table next to = the <BR>bench. <BR> <BR>Our block were made just for the Ott out of the same wood to match. = &nbsp;They <BR>dont' have slots but small 'lips' on the edge to keep the bench from = sliding <BR>off. &nbsp;At concordia we had various 2x4 with different cuts to = accomodate <BR>everyone. <BR> <BR> <BR>Trav <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Jeff, who's = missing his bench shelf. <BR> <BR>PS: &nbsp;I have blocks for the bench, but only one side has slots. = &nbsp;Anyone know <BR>if these are custom built, and if so, can I get new ones?? <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_b0.187ff958.28a3618f_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:06:09 -0400   WEll, I'll tell you. I had thje too high bench problem when i took over = my current position in January. I had to sit on the end of the bench. My = legs kept cramping, going to sleep, etc. It was a nightmare.   Adjustable benches, I found out are darned expensive. The cheapest one i found was, well, a lot. However, I took the plunge and orered one rom a dealer, and it has been the best investment i ever made. Lovely solid = Oak, crank adjuster, fits right behing the organ. If i ever go to another church, I can take it with me. Besides, it's fun watching all the heads turn when a package that size is delivered. :-)   Best wishes, Mike      
(back) Subject: RE: Adjustable benches for the height challenged From: "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:11:03 -0400     >If I ever become ruler of the world all organs being built will come >equiped with adjustable organ benches 22" to 26" high. All will >be equiped with a back rest.   LOL!! That's how I feel about draw knobs. I can't understand why anyone would want anything else. Rocker tabs are awkward for me to see an reach, and I don't like those consoles with all those little tongues sticking out at me.   I guess it's just what your used to.   Mike      
(back) Subject: Re: Bach's pedalling From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:17:51 EDT     --part1_7e.1904aaf5.28a368ef_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       > would Bach have used a Tuba Mirabilis if he'd had one?"   Well, would he? :)   And see there, I've learned something today (probably already knew it back = in the deep recesses, just wasn't bringing it to the conscious).   Still, I would say that period performance practice is good, but it still must be tempered with the ear.   Neil B       --part1_7e.1904aaf5.28a368ef_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">would Bach have = used a Tuba Mirabilis if he'd had one?" </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Well, would he? &nbsp;:) <BR> <BR>And see there, I've learned something today (probably already knew it = back in <BR>the deep recesses, just wasn't bringing it to the conscious). = &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>Still, I would say that period performance practice is good, but it = still <BR>must be tempered with the ear. <BR> <BR>Neil B <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_7e.1904aaf5.28a368ef_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach's pedalling From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:31:52 -0700     --------------32624546EC007416FFD7D997 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:   Still, I would say that period performance practice is good, but it still must be tempered with the ear.   Neil B     Well of COURSE it does ... *I* still can't get used to hearing the Bach Passions with period-instrument orchestras, for instance.   But I wouldn't return to Beecham's tempi in "Messiah" (grin).   I think the French have it right ... after laying out all their rules about ornamentation and registration, they almost invariably conclude with a statement to the effect that "the good taste of the player must prevail."   Cheers,   Bud   --------------32624546EC007416FFD7D997 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:<font face=3D"Arial"><font = color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1></font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Still, I = would say that period performance practice is good, but it still must be = tempered with the ear.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Neil = B</font></font></font> <br>&nbsp; <p>Well of COURSE it does ... *I* still can't get used to hearing the Bach Passions with period-instrument orchestras, for instance. <p>But I wouldn't return to Beecham's tempi in "Messiah" (grin). <p>I think the French have it right ... after laying out all their rules about ornamentation and registration, they almost invariably conclude with a statement to the effect that "the good taste of the player must = prevail." <p>Cheers, <p>Bud </body> </html>   --------------32624546EC007416FFD7D997--