PipeChat Digest #2315 - Wednesday, August 15, 2001
 
RE: pitch... but different
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Thanks [was Adjustable benches]
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Benches and their cost
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
the cost of fine workmanship
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Allegro - part 4
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
RE: the cost of fine workmanship
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Fine Workmanship
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: pitch... but different
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
RE: pitch... but different
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
RE: pitch... but different
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: pitch... but different
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington)
  by "Audrey Jacobsen" <AJ1995@home.com>
Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
the Great Packington organ
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington)
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: pitch... but different From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:00:07 -0400   This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C125A3.5B020300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   Yeah. As I said, although to me it sounded "off" there was something about it that drew me to it and I just continued to play. I was, well, almost, truthfully, sexual, to be frank. The tension was not quite unnerving? I don't know, I can't articulate it. -----Original Message----- From: Cremona502@cs.com [mailto:Cremona502@cs.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 11:56 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: pitch... but different     Robert, The composers who lived with unequal temperaments used the nuances of the temperament to enhance and make their music exciting and different. The most interesting of these, to me, are the chromatic fugues which exploit every possibility of the intonation. It definitely takes getting used = to, but I really think it's worth it. Now try it with Hindemith or Reger!!   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C125A3.5B020300 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1">     <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D113045815-15082001><FONT face=3DGaramond = color=3D#800000>Yeah. As I said, although to me it sounded "off" there was something about it that = drew me to it and I just continued to play. I was, well, almost, truthfully, = sexual, to be frank. The tension was not quite unnerving? I don't know, I can't = articulate it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Cremona502@cs.com [mailto:Cremona502@cs.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 15, 2001 = 11:56 AM<BR><B>To:</B> pipechat@pipechat.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: pitch... but =   different<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT = size=3D2>Robert, <BR>The composers who lived with unequal temperaments used the nuances of = the <BR>temperament to enhance and make their music exciting and different. &nbsp;&nbsp;The <BR>most interesting of these, to me, are the chromatic = fugues which exploit <BR>every possibility of the intonation. &nbsp;&nbsp;It = definitely takes getting used to, <BR>but I really think it's worth it. = &nbsp;&nbsp;Now try it with Hindemith or Reger!! <BR><BR>Bruce Cornely = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's = Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, = and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT> = </FONT></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C125A3.5B020300--  
(back) Subject: Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:03:20 EDT     --part1_4b.fc85a51.28abf748_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Thanks. After hearing some beautiful small Erben organs at OHS = conventions, I can almost imagine the grand sound this organ possesses.   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_4b.fc85a51.28abf748_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks. = &nbsp;&nbsp;After hearing some beautiful small Erben organs at OHS = conventions, <BR>I can almost imagine the grand sound this organ possesses. <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_4b.fc85a51.28abf748_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Thanks [was Adjustable benches] From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:07:29 EDT     --part1_95.ecd132d.28abf841_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/15/01 11:53:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes:     > Now it wobbles and we are forever adding > blocks! >   might consider evening up the legs!!! ;-)   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_95.ecd132d.28abf841_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/15/01 11:53:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>jovanderlee@vassar.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Now it wobbles and = we are forever adding <BR>blocks! <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>might consider evening up the legs!!! &nbsp;&nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_95.ecd132d.28abf841_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Benches and their cost From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:20:21 -0500   "COLASACCO, ROBERT" wrote: > well all this talk about benches, benches, benches, if they didn't cost = $200 > maybe folks would buy and second bench to keep around!   It costs $200.00 (actually: that's a GOOD price for new!) because there's materials and finishing time involved, and someone has to be paid to build it.   You could always build one yourself if you think you can do it so much cheaper, or else there's always the possibility of acquiring a used one from an organbuilder.   How many do you want?   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:31:20 EDT   Hi Bud:   The Great Packington instrument used by Biggs was altered for the Handel recordings. As I remember it, the pitch was too high, so longer tuning collars were applied. The key compass was either FF or FFF or GG and GGG. It was a long time ago, but that's my recollection of the program notes, and sketchy at best. Perhaps someone still with Mander will remember more.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: the cost of fine workmanship From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:41:15 -0700   I have had this conversation MANY times ... I'm having it right now with = my organ committee, my Rector, and my Vestry.   The ONLY wealthy organ-builders I have EVER heard of were those who = MARRIED money (grin). Even those like Midmer-Losh with a wealthy patron like Senator = Richards went under eventually.   Consider this: say an organ of 40 speaking stops DOES cost around $800K at = today's prices ... an average shop of 6-7 workmen would take at LEAST two years to = build it, probably more, because he has to stop and do tuning and maintenance = work to make ends meet ... out of that $800K, a builder has to pay his crew AND = his overhead for two years or more, buy the materials, erect the organ in the = shop, then disassemble it, ship it, and erect it and voice it in the church = (don't forget bed and board for the workers while they're doing THAT ... Oberlin = is allowing a YEAR for the new Fisk to be voiced in Finney Chapel ... that's = a YEAR that those men are out of the shop, on site). Once you total all THAT up, = there isn't much of a profit margin; often there's NONE, because most GOOD = builders will make it RIGHT and hang the profit margin, particularly if it's a = "signature" instrument in a well-known church.   While modern machine tools ARE used for some things, most of the CRUCIAL = parts of organ-building are still (and MUST be) done by hand ... a 16th-century = builder would recognize most of THOSE tools in a 21st-century shop.   Even if a builder orders his unvoiced metal pipes and/or his reeds from = elsewhere, and even his windchests, SOMEWHERE up the line SOMEBODY is still making = those pipes and those windchests by hand, and the builder (and the client) are = PAYING for that painstaking labor.   Ever laid out a tracker action? BBBBBRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Ever ERECTED a track chassis? DOUBLE BBBBBBBRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Ever voiced a pipe? Sore hands, cuts, sore ears ... now, multiply THAT by = forty stops. Or better yet, ask the folks from Andover who did the cathedral = organ in Buffalo (grin). They're STILL having nightmares and ringing ears = (chuckle).   I'm not a builder, but I've assisted 'em. I have nothing but the greatest = respect for them.   $200 for a bench? My BED cost $500, and it needs to be REPLACED after 10 = years ... a BENCH lasts a LIFETIME.   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Allegro - part 4 From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:46:19 -0700   Oblivious to their surroundings, they were intently staring at each other. Jeremy tried again: "Really Sam", he was retreating now: "It's really mostly the composition piece, Sam, it's just not going. Just one stupid sonata for my thesis - three lousy movements - but it's not working....It stinks, and that makes me so angry." "Oh please Jeremy, since when did composition knock you for a loop?", she said with some ill-disguised sarcasm in her voice. God! she hated him when he got like that. "Walk away Sam", she told herself inwardly. But not her voice: " I don't believe you Jeremy! You better tell me what's going on!" "Hey, are you listening? Sam? Right now I can't deal with you and this project all at the same time. It will always be like this, you know? That's just how I am. Just one week left, and it took four weeks to do just the first and second movements, and I haven't even started on that last allegro movement yet. Besides that, the themes are weak, they're not getting better and the whole goddam piece sucks!" Her cheeks reddening, Samantha spat back at him: "Well thank you so much for that most erudite description of your handiwork!! And now really angry: "Hey, you! This is a church you know? Was that really necessary?!" He turned away: "Please go!" She didn't and stayed, waiting for an answer.   Samantha had met Jeremy early on in the semester. Both attended the same theory class, she as a voice major. Fate had placed them next to each other. They had both tried to check out the same book from the library and wound up studying together. There was an initial simpatico, embellished by a shared musicality. A deeper passion, which often surfaced in his musical talents, added to the allure of the pairing. Slowly a deeper love had begun to bloom. Jeremy felt attracted to her quick smile, the enchantment of her voice, and the comfort of her company. He wanted to be in love with her... so much. It would be so easy to just surrender to his emotions; but there was this fear... So, they spoke of school, friends and music, seldom venturing much beyond a mutual comfort level. They found much enjoyment as friends. Yet Samantha's feelings were also deepening, and she thought so were Jeremy's. But his demonstrations were restrained, an invisible limit. Efforts to get closer often only drove him deeper into his projects. Jeremy struggled inside. He craved Samantha's companionship. He missed her when she was gone. Still he'd keep himself from that threshold. The closer she came, the more he retreated. Just yesterday, a sudden hug made him tense up. Appalled at his own reaction, he was saddened by the hurt in her beautiful eyes; a hurt that desperately wanted an answer. His heart told him to kiss those eyes, to make them happy again. But instead he had gone back to this room in silence.  
(back) Subject: RE: the cost of fine workmanship From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:54:44 -0400   I would like to clear up one thing as this goes on and on and on. I NEVER stated that pipe organs were too expensive, quite frankly I think the opposite! I personally do not wish to get drawn into this part of this argument, pardon me, discussion, because I think very few goods in this world are as magnificent and artistically crafted as are pipe organs. But for a damn bench, yes a BENCH that can be very simply constructed of = pre-cut wood of 5 pieces (2 vertical and 3 horizontal), add 5 more if you "need" a place to keep very little music in, that is NOT embellished in any way and can serve the same purpose as any magnificently carved piece of = magnificence be it mahogany, oak, teak, whatever to be made as a second piece for a shorter or taller or whatever person to "use" to play the organ to = suddenly fall under this fine workmanship heading is preposterous. I'm not talking about the bench that's designed to match the console and possibly the = case. I'm talking "second bench" for someone else who plays this organ or that = but has a different "fit". Maybe a student. Maybe a substitute or Assistant/Associate Organist. Got it? Robert Colasacco  
(back) Subject: Fine Workmanship From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:55:21 -0700 (PDT)   --0-1929379166-997894521=3D:59761 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii     Sometimes you don't really know what fine workmanship is until you see it = side by side with something, not necessarily poor, but say at least of = lesser quality. Last week after I cleaned up the 1961 2 man. Aeolian Skinner console we = are going to use in our rebuild I stepped back and took a look. The thing = that immediately struck me was that the basic quality of materials and = workmanship in the Skinner console made most of our furnishings look VERY = second rate. Our pews and chancel furniture are typical of the 1950's and = are not bad quality as far as service or materials. We have wonderful (if = you like the style) Gabriel Loire windows, a gorgeous bas relief of the = presentation near the font, and beautiful stations of the cross, but the = console simply paled all of them - It is more impressive of couse than the = stop key Klann, but looks far more simple and less complicated. The = casework has some raised panel work but it isn't elaborate - it is just = quality workmanship and it is evident to anyone.     Randy Terry Minister of Music, Organist & Choirmaster The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org     --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-1929379166-997894521=3D:59761 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii   <P>&nbsp;Sometimes you don't really know what fine workmanship is until = you see it side by side with something, not necessarily poor, but say at = least of lesser quality. <P>Last week after I cleaned up the 1961 2 man. Aeolian Skinner console we = are going to use in our rebuild I stepped back and took a look. The thing = that immediately struck me was that the basic quality of materials and = workmanship in the Skinner console made most of our furnishings look VERY = second rate. Our pews and chancel furniture are typical of the 1950's and = are not bad quality as far as service or materials. We have wonderful (if = you like the style) Gabriel Loire windows, a gorgeous bas relief of the = presentation near the font, and beautiful stations of the cross, but the = console simply paled all of them - It is more impressive of couse than the = stop key Klann, but looks far more simple and less complicated. The = casework has some raised panel work but it isn't elaborate - it is just = quality workmanship and it is evident to anyone.</P><BR><BR>Randy = Terry<br>Minister of Music, Organist &amp; Choirmaster<br>The Episcopal = Church of St. Peter<br>Redwood City, California<br>www.stpet Make <a href=3D"http://phonecard.yahoo.com/">international calls</a> for = as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger. --0-1929379166-997894521=3D:59761--  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch... but different From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:29:04 EDT   Hi Robert C.:   Meantone (Pythagorean) is the most primative, Quarter Comma is closer to well temper. Pythagorean, only the near keys are in anyway useful. The octaves don't meet well either after setting the bearing. Capitals are major small case minor. C a G e D d F are probably the most useful keys, the fewer sharps or flats the better. With Quarter Comma more keys are available. This was the prevelent tuning during Bach's time. Check through your Bach organ music and see which keys he favored. That should give you some very strong clues. Dr. Kellner discovered what may have been the scheme used by Bach on Harpsicords, and Clavicords to produce the famous 48 in welltemper.   Organ builders of the time stayed with 1/4 1/5 and 1/6 comma meantone because the mutations and ensamble mixtures and their relationship with the flue and reed work were more uniform in tuning and sounded more coheasive. Not all keys were possible, on these cone tuned instruments, but Equal is harsh in every key. The wolf is still there, and what I mean by "wolf" is the mathmatical discrepancy that still exists no matter how you cut up the pie. There were mathmatical cancellations of certain intervals because of thirds and sixths out of tune in Equal, so they decided not to go there.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: RE: pitch... but different From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:46:54 -0400   Check through your Bach organ music and see which keys he favored. That should give you some very strong clues. Regards,   Ron Severin   He favored most assuredly F,C,G,D but bear in mind I bet he favored g# (minor), Ab, F# but due to temperament was forced into using F,C,G,D.  
(back) Subject: RE: pitch... but different From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:56:22 -0400   Meantone (Pythagorean) is the most primative, Quarter Comma is closer to well temper. ----- Man that's some Meantone you got there. Hits those ears like a tin pan. Bear in mind too that playing Merulo I used Principal 8, Octave, 12th, = 15th, Mixture V with Tone 2 on Johannus which is "Baroque" tone to get the = Italian organ effect--yeah, I know it's a digital, booooooooooooo--but even cooler than that with it's sounding "off," as I like to describe it, it sounds = even more like a pipe organ, hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!! Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!   To the purists: I too think nothing, absolutely nothing can match a pipe organ, but it not feasible for me to have one in my tiny NYC apt. This is the last time I will guiltily rationalize this. I'm boring myself as well = as boring y'all with it.  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch... but different From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:36:23 EDT   Hi Robert:   You mentioned digital organ, right? It's the only way to check out what I'm saying about temperments without diving miles or out of state to try different temperments on pipe organs.   You'll hear right away how more cohesive the mutations and upper work are using the same organ sound and dialing up a different temperment and seeing how it behaves with those same sounds. Start with Equal in the center of the keyboard and play a four note root chord. Listen to the C major chord. See how fast the beat is between C and E coupled with the relationship to the G above and the interaction of E and G at the same time and the G and C above. Then dial up a well temper and listen to the difference. It's a wopper! Add octaves and mixtures and A and B the two temperments again, same chord. Once you hear it, Equal will bother you very badly, it's out of tune as far as the interval relationships. The "Wolf" has struck! Kellner is the most satisfying choice over all. The cohesiveness of intervalic relationships is more acceptable to the ear even though some intervals are modified. It's not as big of a shock.   I'm not saying no beats are good, and some beats are bad. I'm saying our modern ears have blocked the harshness of Equal, but when well temper is encountered, there is a compelling calmness, and silveriness to the tone that can be found no other way. The wisdom of Silbermann and the other great masters becomes apparent and palpable. Key color becomes a charming addition, that Equal subtracts. And yes the difference is quite dramatic. Perhaps, changing the key center from A=3D435 to = A=3D450 or A=3D415 also slightly changes these relationships as well. FOOD FOR THOUGHT!   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington) From: "Audrey Jacobsen" <AJ1995@home.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:59:30 -0700   Hi Ron,   The Great Packington organ was permanently altered with cutting! There was a great scandal and uproar from such notables as Gillian Weir and Lady Susi Jeans that this historic instruemtn had been "damaged".   Audrey   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Bud: > > The Great Packington instrument used by Biggs was altered for the > Handel recordings. As I remember it, the pitch was too high, so longer > tuning collars were applied. The key compass was either FF or FFF > or GG and GGG. It was a long time ago, but that's my recollection > of the program notes, and sketchy at best. Perhaps someone still > with Mander will remember more. > > Ron Severin > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:55:52 EDT   Hi Audrey:   I was afraid someone might say that! I just didn't want to be the first! = :) So much for E. Power Biggs the organ preserver. I'm very surprised Noel P. Mander participated in this. I suppose the pipes could have been soldered up again. :) Would this come under the heading BUTCHERY? I must say I have to agree with Gillian Weir, and Lady Susi Jeans. Sawing the pipes up would also change the scaling, and pipe speach. It makes one wonder: Was this just a look at museum piece? or considered surplus? or what were the over riding considerations? The pipes could have been moved down in the pipe holes on the chest temporarily to the desired pitch, and no damage done. Used ranks could have been brought in and cut up I suppose. I knew they used long tuning collars, and was in hope the pipes were lenghtened initially rather than cut off, and then lenghtened.   Regards,   Ron Severin   PS Malcolm, any comments?  
(back) Subject: the Great Packington organ From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:07:40 -0700   I'm starting to remember some of this now, but I thought Mander fitted tuning collars so that the organ could be returned to its original pitch. BUT, I seem to recall that the pitch was LOWER. I suppose that still would have worked, if, as Ron suggests, the ranks were simply moved up a half-step and then collar-tuned THERE. Of course, as he also points out, that WOULD have altered the scales, etc.   The Great Packington organ was in the private chapel-of-ease of an estate ... I THINK it was used regularly for services, as I recall a burning Sanctuary Lamp in the picture of it, which would seem to indicate a church in regular use. Strange how one remembers things like that ... I remember thinking at the time that it must be a HIGH Anglican church (grin).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington) From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 13:33:03 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Ron:   I have encountered several old American organs of which an old Hook & Hastings comes to mind.   This organ, built around 1900, was originally tuned to A-435. You are quite correct when you say that the scales would be slightly increased if they are cut off and the pipes are re-tuned to A-440. However, there are two more problems: Cone-tuned pipes (mixtures), and tapered metal pipes (Gemshorns, etc.).   Once this change has been made, there's no going back. You can cut it off, but you can't put it back. As for the tapered stops, the taper will have been increased and will severly alter the voicing. If anyone tries this, they had better damned well know what they are doing.   The best policy to prevent butchering pipes is to LEAVE THE ORGAN ALONE and STAY OUT OF THE CHAMBER if you are not an expert voicer.   Most people don't know the difference between A-415, A-435, and A-440 anyway. Why increase scales which are too large to begin with and risk butchering a good organ?   When I was a voicer and tonal finisher with Aeolian-Skinner, an old reed voicer by the name of Oscar Pearson (who died several years ago at the age of 105) told me when I went out on my first finishing job, that the most valuable asset I could possess that would be most helpful in finishing organs was to have sense enough to know when to leave well enough alone.   D. Keith Morgan --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > Hi Audrey: > > I was afraid someone might say that! I just didn't > want to be the first! :) > So much for E. Power Biggs the organ preserver. I'm > very surprised > Noel P. Mander participated in this. I suppose the > pipes could have > been soldered up again. :) Would this come under the > heading > BUTCHERY? I must say I have to agree with Gillian > Weir, and Lady > Susi Jeans. Sawing the pipes up would also change > the scaling, > and pipe speach. It makes one wonder: Was this just > a look at > museum piece? or considered surplus? or what were > the over riding > considerations? The pipes could have been moved down > in the pipe > holes on the chest temporarily to the desired pitch, > and no damage done. > Used ranks could have been brought in and cut up I > suppose. I knew > they used long tuning collars, and was in hope the > pipes were lenghtened > initially rather than cut off, and then lenghtened. > > Regards, > > Ron Severin > > PS Malcolm, any comments? > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/