PipeChat Digest #2316 - Thursday, August 16, 2001
 
Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington)
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Once again, bench costs
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: pitch... but different
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Utah Organ In A Barn
  by "David Carter" <david_n_carter@hotmail.com>
Re: the cost of fine workmanship
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: higher pitches in old organs(Great Packington) From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Ron:   Also, I forgot about reeds. Often they will not stand a change of tuning that drastic. The Aeolian-Skinner Organ Company had to do a lot of re-voicing in the organ at Symphony Hall in Boston in 1949, because the Boston Symphony Orchestra tuned to A-444, and the reeds would not go that much sharper and had to be re-voiced with new tongues. I don't know if they still tune to A-444 or not.   D. Keith Morgan --- douglas morgan <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Ron: > > I have encountered several old American organs of > which an old Hook & Hastings comes to mind. > > This organ, built around 1900, was originally tuned > to > A-435. You are quite correct when you say that the > scales would be slightly increased if they are cut > off > and the pipes are re-tuned to A-440. However, there > are two more problems: Cone-tuned pipes (mixtures), > and tapered metal pipes (Gemshorns, etc.). > > Once this change has been made, there's no going > back. > You can cut it off, but you can't put it back. As > for the tapered stops, the taper will have been > increased and will severly alter the voicing. If > anyone tries this, they had better damned well know > what they are doing. > > The best policy to prevent butchering pipes is to > LEAVE THE ORGAN ALONE and STAY OUT OF THE CHAMBER if > you are not an expert voicer. > > Most people don't know the difference between A-415, > A-435, and A-440 anyway. Why increase scales which > are too large to begin with and risk butchering a > good > organ? > > When I was a voicer and tonal finisher with > Aeolian-Skinner, an old reed voicer by the name of > Oscar Pearson (who died several years ago at the age > of 105) told me when I went out on my first > finishing > job, that the most valuable asset I could possess > that > would be most helpful in finishing organs was to > have > sense enough to know when to leave well enough > alone. > > D. Keith Morgan > --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Audrey: > > > > I was afraid someone might say that! I just didn't > > want to be the first! :) > > So much for E. Power Biggs the organ preserver. > I'm > > very surprised > > Noel P. Mander participated in this. I suppose the > > pipes could have > > been soldered up again. :) Would this come under > the > > heading > > BUTCHERY? I must say I have to agree with Gillian > > Weir, and Lady > > Susi Jeans. Sawing the pipes up would also change > > the scaling, > > and pipe speach. It makes one wonder: Was this > just > > a look at > > museum piece? or considered surplus? or what were > > the over riding > > considerations? The pipes could have been moved > down > > in the pipe > > holes on the chest temporarily to the desired > pitch, > > and no damage done. > > Used ranks could have been brought in and cut up I > > suppose. I knew > > they used long tuning collars, and was in hope the > > pipes were lenghtened > > initially rather than cut off, and then > lenghtened. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ron Severin > > > > PS Malcolm, any comments? > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 17:49:41 -0400   I think Bud's posting is a rarity, in showing an understanding of the fact that organbuilding is not the road to riches. Being awarded a contract to build a large and complete instrument in a great space is thrilling - Champagne throughout the workshop stuff! But that thrill is not an expression of the profit motive - it is the thrill of a great artistic opportunity, and that is what is felt by everyone right down to the the newest bench hand. You cannot imagine what was felt by the guys who worked = a couple of years on the instrument at St. Ignatius Loyola in NY, and those who worked on site for six months, when they saw, in the workshop in = London, the organ on TV at Jackie's funeral, broadcast from the church to the = whole world. It was a sad occasion to take a thrill from, but there was thrill nonetheless. I have no problem in saying that this instrument did not = "turn a profit." I can also tell you that in two cases, organists and committees saw, heard, and played the instrument, and subsequently entrusted us with = an organ project. That's profit of a sort, and there were other instances in which the instrument positively influenced other decisions..   Two things in Bud's posting need a bit of clarification. With us, as with most European builders, the cost of housing the installation crew is borne by the parish. It is not shown in the contract price. This gives a church the opportunity to call on parishioners to provide housing for members of the crew, as a contribution to the church. This almost always happens, and ends up being a fine thing for all concerned. At Chestnut Hill (Philadelphia), the host and other families also brought in daily two = meals for the crew, rotating that responsibility, this meaning that the crew did not have to change and go out each day, allowing more time for work. (The families rather competed to be known for the best food!) And that was in lieu of <per diem> payments for meals the church would have had to make. = The result of all this was a very close relationship between hosts and crew, such that the families got together and provided air tickets and accommodation for the crew to fly in from London for Peter Sykes's dedication recital, a wonderful gift.   Another area in which things are a bit different from the picture Bud has painted concern his question/comment: "Ever laid out a tracker action BBBBBRRR!!!!!!!!" Much of the drudgery of that and also of chest layout = has been taken over by computer aided design systems (CAD), used by most busy builders today, saving countless expensive hours at the drawing board.   Anyway, Bud's understanding of the process is right on, and I and, I am sure, others in the organ building world thank him for it.   Cheers,   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2001 12:41 PM Subject: the cost of fine workmanship     > The ONLY wealthy organ-builders I have EVER heard of were those who MARRIED money > (grin). Even those like Midmer-Losh with a wealthy patron like Senator Richards > went under eventually. > > Consider this: say an organ of 40 speaking stops DOES cost around $800K = at today's > prices    
(back) Subject: Once again, bench costs From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:07:40 EDT   An organ bench is an investment, not an expense. To those who are livid at the thought of spending 600 to 1,500 dollars = on a well-crafted bench from an organbuilder, please feel free to make one on =   your own. Take the measurements, draw it up, select, grade, and purchase the = lumber, mill it, fit it up, and finish it, and multiply the hours spent doing that = by your own hourly wage. Don't even include liability insurance or workman's =   compensation, nor the cost of the electricity needed to run the machinery = you have purchased for your workshop. See what it costs YOU to build your OWN =   bench. Used benches, if they don't creak and sway, are always less costly, and might be a safer bet, but if an organbuilder can make you a brand new, = well constructed, finished bench for a couple of hundred dollars, his children =   are going hungy and barefoot...   SMG  
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:32:21 -0700       Malcolm Wechsler wrote:   > (snip) > > Two things in Bud's posting need a bit of clarification. With us, as = with > most European builders, the cost of housing the installation crew is = borne > by the parish. It is not shown in the contract price. This gives a = church > the opportunity to call on parishioners to provide housing for members = of > the crew, as a contribution to the church. This almost always happens, = and > ends up being a fine thing for all concerned.   I know that's true in some (most?) cases, but it wouldn't be practical for = a commuter parish like ours ... average commute each way 30-45 minutes. We probably WILL feed them at lunchtime, etc. ... true, these costs aren't in = the contract, mostly to avoid paying additional taxes (grin) ... I think the = sales tax on our organ will be something like $17K (!) ... but they WILL be part = of the total fundraising effort for the organ.   > Another area in which things are a bit different from the picture Bud = has > painted concern his question/comment: "Ever laid out a tracker action > BBBBBRRR!!!!!!!!" Much of the drudgery of that and also of chest layout = has > been taken over by computer aided design systems (CAD), used by most = busy > builders today, saving countless expensive hours at the drawing board.   Well, you have to remember, Malcolm, I learned all this before computers = were INVENTED; builders were still drawing their actions on parchment by = gas-light (grin).   > Anyway, Bud's understanding of the process is right on, and I and, I am > sure, others in the organ building world thank him for it. > > Cheers, > > Malcolm Wechsler > www.mander-organs.com >   Why, thank you kindly ...   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@arkansas.net> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:40:15 -0500   At 05:49 PM 8/15/01 -0400, Malcom wrote, in response to Bud's elequent = post: <snip> > >Anyway, Bud's understanding of the process is right on, and I and, I am >sure, others in the organ building world thank him for it.   Dear Malcom, Bud, and List,   Count me as one of those "others", if you please.   Thank you, Bud, for your kind words.   Cheers!   Tim Bovard Nichols and Simpson, Inc. Little Rock, AR      
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 19:56:55 EDT   In a message dated 8/15/2001 7:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << I think the sales tax on our organ will be something like $17K (!) . >> I thought churches were tax-exempt . . . why would you be paying sales = tax? (Perhaps I'm missing something?)   DudelK Washington, DC  
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:35:51 EDT     --part1_36.1a2f5159.28ac6f67_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/15/01 12:55:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org writes:     > I'm not talking > about the bench that's designed to match the console and possibly the = case. > I'm talking "second bench" for someone else who plays this organ or that = but > has a different "fit". Maybe a student. Maybe a substitute or > Assistant/Associate Organist. Got it? >   Robert, You've brought up an excellent point. It would be really interesting if =   you would contact three carpenters in your area and tell them what you = want. Get three estimates and report back to us. It would be very interesting = to see the results.   You might be on to a new home business!! ;-)   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_36.1a2f5159.28ac6f67_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/15/01 12:55:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I'm not talking <BR>about the bench that's designed to match the console and possibly the = case. <BR>I'm talking "second bench" for someone else who plays this organ or = that but <BR>has a different "fit". Maybe a student. Maybe a substitute or <BR>Assistant/Associate Organist. Got it? <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Robert, <BR>You've brought up an excellent point. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It would be = really interesting if <BR>you would contact three carpenters in your area and tell them what you = want. &nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;Get three estimates and report back to us. &nbsp;&nbsp;It would = be very interesting to <BR>see the results. <BR> <BR>You might be on to a new home business!! &nbsp;&nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_36.1a2f5159.28ac6f67_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: pitch... but different From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:41:08 EDT     --part1_dd.19052492.28ac70a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/15/01 1:57:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org writes:     > , I know it's a digital, booooooooooooo--but even cooler > than that with it's sounding "off," as I like to describe it, it sounds = even > more like a pipe organ, hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!! > Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! >   One of the problems with imitation orgathingies is the tuning which is usually rigidly equal, and as in the Hammonds, perfect (perfectly awful!). = Add unequal temperament to one of these critters and the sound is bound to =   improve.   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_dd.19052492.28ac70a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/15/01 1:57:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">, I know it's a = digital, booooooooooooo--but even cooler <BR>than that with it's sounding "off," as I like to describe it, it = sounds even <BR>more like a pipe organ, hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss!!! <BR>Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>One of the problems with imitation orgathingies is the tuning which is =   <BR>usually rigidly equal, and as in the Hammonds, perfect (perfectly = awful!). &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>Add unequal temperament to one of these critters and the sound is = bound to <BR>improve. <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_dd.19052492.28ac70a4_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:57:42 EDT   In a message dated 8/15/01 7:35:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   << I think the sales tax on our organ will be something like $17K (!) ... =   but they WILL be part of the total fundraising effort for the organ. >>   ???????? Since when do churches pay sales tax???? I attend a church in Baltimore and we are currently looking at organs, and I think I do = remember one of the reps saying something like: "at least you won't have to pay = sales tax on it."  
(back) Subject: Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 20:23:19 -0500   : <RonSeverin@aol.com> wrote: St. George's Episcopal was similar in NY I was told. > This organ had party horns before they ever got popular. What > ever happened to it?   Alas, I believe it burned many years ago. I think they have a Moller now. As I recall the Jardine had a very interesting specification including a very well developed Pedal organ even including a Pedal Mixture.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:01:07 -0400   Dear List, Without raising the "flame level" here, I would like to point out the receipe for a "simple little Organ bench" 1. 15 board feet of high quality Hardwood. 2. lay out the pieces and cut the wood. 3. cut mortices and tendons in each peice so that the bench will stay together. 4. use a router to "round over" every edge on the wood, so that there is nothing to catch and rip clothing, etc. 5. sand each part prior to assembling 6. assemble ( Screw and Glue) the bench parts into a whole 7. let the glue dry (overnight at the least) 8. Sand the enitre piece (again) 9. Tack-cloth the bench prior to applying finish 10. mix the custom stain and test it on "scrap" 11. Apply the stain and let dry (overnight) 12. Apply several coats of finish, allowing drying time and sanding between coats (several more days)   Remember, even a lowly organ bench is really a piece of fine furniture........and only Norm Abrams can make one in a single half hour TV show !     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY         On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:54:44 -0400 "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> writes: > I would like to clear up one thing as this goes on and on and on. I > NEVER > stated that pipe organs were too expensive, quite frankly I think > the > opposite! I personally do not wish to get drawn into this part of > this > argument, pardon me, discussion, because I think very few goods in > this > world are as magnificent and artistically crafted as are pipe > organs. But > for a damn bench, yes a BENCH that can be very simply constructed of > pre-cut > wood of 5 pieces (2 vertical and 3 horizontal), add 5 more if you > "need" a > place to keep very little music in, that is NOT embellished in any > way and > can serve the same purpose as any magnificently carved piece of > magnificence > be it mahogany, oak, teak, whatever to be made as a second piece for > a > shorter or taller or whatever person to "use" to play the organ to > suddenly > fall under this fine workmanship heading is preposterous. I'm not > talking > about the bench that's designed to match the console and possibly > the case. > I'm talking "second bench" for someone else who plays this organ or > that but > has a different "fit". Maybe a student. Maybe a substitute or > Assistant/Associate Organist. Got it? > Robert Colasacco > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: Re: 19th century pitch/Old St Pat's NYC From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 22:32:18 -0500   "John L. Speller" wrote: <The Old St. George's Episcopal Jardine> > Alas, I believe it burned many years ago. I think they have a Moller = now.   Indeed it is (or at least was). E Power Biggs made this instrument somewhat (in)famous with his "French Fireworks" (I *think* that was the title, anyway!) recording that I had when I was a kid. The one thing I can VIVIDLY remember about the sound was that it was all top (Mixture), all bottom (Bombardes, etc.) and NO MIDDLE! Imagine the "distortion" of the sound of French Repertoire played upon it.   Cheers!   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL  
(back) Subject: Utah Organ In A Barn From: "David Carter" <david_n_carter@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 03:30:40   Here's a link to an article in the Salt Lake Tribune about a Utah farmer = who has built an organ in his barn.   http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/news/archive/2001/08/13/s= tate1642EDT7314.DTL   If this link doesn't end up together (i.e. it comes out on two separate lines) when it gets posted on the list, you'll have to string both lines together in the address window of your browser.   David Carter Sacramento   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp    
(back) Subject: Re: the cost of fine workmanship From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 23:47:54 EDT   In a message dated 8/15/01 11:36:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dougcampbell@juno.com writes:   << 11. Apply the stain and let dry (overnight) 12. Apply several coats of finish, allowing drying time and sanding between coats (several more days) >>   You forgot to mention that this is ideally done in a dust-free environment =   (in other words, not MY house)