PipeChat Digest #2566 - Wednesday, December 12, 2001
 
Re: imitation
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: PipeChat Digest #2564 - 12/12/01
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Re: imitation
  by <JFHoppeNO@aol.com>
Re: Imatations
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
Re: imitation
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: Ross' comments about the Cornet
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Cornets
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Jeff's Cornet
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Jeff's Cornet
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Ross' comments about the Cornet
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: imitation From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:27:19 +1300   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0043_01C183C9.1FF687C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Re: imitationNot quite the same intention. I don't know of one early =3D organbuilder (say, before 1800) who ever once used a loudspeaker to =3D project the sound of his creation. There is no record of Schnitger, =3D Silbermann, Clicquot, Harris, Antegnati, Snetzler, Father Smith, even =3D Vogler, ordering amplifiers and speakers. (Ooooohhh, isn't Ross Wards awful) ::--)) -----Original Message----- From: Russ Greene <rggreene2@shaw.ca> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:07 AM Subject: Re: imitation     Hi Ross, I=3D92m not saying that current builders are striving to imitate =3D orchestral sounds. I am absolutely saying however that the builders who = =3D first developed stops other than the Diapason family were striving as =3D hard as possible to imitate the original instruments. As organists and =3D modern organ builders, we have fallen in love with the early organ =3D builders shortcomings, their imperfect imitations, and now strive to =3D improve upon those sounds in their own right.   But originally, organ builders tried to do, with limited technology, =3D exactly what we now do with digital samplers.   Cheers, Russ=3D20   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0043_01C183C9.1FF687C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: imitation</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3D3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV>Not quite the same intention. I don't know of one early =3D organbuilder (say,=3D20 before 1800) who ever once used a loudspeaker to project the sound of =3D his=3D20 creation. There is no record of Schnitger, Silbermann, Clicquot, Harris, = =3D   Antegnati, Snetzler, Father Smith, even Vogler, ordering amplifiers = and=3D20 speakers.</DIV> <DIV>(Ooooohhh, isn't Ross Wards awful)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D ::--))</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px = =3D solid"> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2><B>-----Original =3D Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=3D20 </B>Russ Greene &lt;<A=3D20 = href=3D3D"mailto:rggreene2@shaw.ca">rggreene2@shaw.ca</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=3D2= 0 </B>PipeChat &lt;<A=3D20 =3D href=3D3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org">pipechat@pipechat.org</A>&gt;<BR><B= =3D >Date:=3D20 </B>Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:07 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re:=3D20 imitation<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3D3DHelvetica>Hi = Ross,<BR>I=3D92m =3D not saying=3D20 that current builders are striving to imitate orchestral sounds. I = am=3D20 absolutely saying however that the builders who first developed stops = =3D other=3D20 than the Diapason family were striving as hard as possible to imitate = =3D the=3D20 original instruments. As organists and modern organ builders, we have = =3D fallen=3D20 in love with the early organ builders shortcomings, their imperfect=3D20 imitations, and now strive to improve upon those sounds in their = own=3D20 right.<BR><BR>But originally, organ builders tried to do, with limited = =3D   technology, exactly what we now do with digital=3D20 samplers.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Russ</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0043_01C183C9.1FF687C0--      
(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat Digest #2564 - 12/12/01 From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:08:56 -0600   He's in the running for the ALaM award....   -----Original Message----- From: pat and ian [mailto:patian@senet.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:07 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #2564 - 12/12/01         I've reached the stage that when I see ross (note the lower case!) it has = me considering placing a filter on my e-mail reception to keep ross out of my life.   Ian.   > From: "Ken Earl" <ken_earl01@hotmail.com> > Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:47:25 -0000 > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #2564 - 12/12/01 > > Hi all > > It seems we have a veritable walking encyclopedia in Ross Ward, who not only > knows everything there is to know about the pipe organ, but about all other > mnusical instruments as well, and is therefor qualified to make expert > opinions on all subjects. > > I think we should all just sit here silent and wait for his next > utterations. > > However, devil's advocate that I sometimes love to be, I must also ask = him > to ensure that all historical Musical Dictionaries, Dictionaries of = Organ > Stops, not to mention works such as Audsley's 'The Art of Organ = Building' > and Sumner's 'the Organ', get reprinted immediately, to ensure that his > opinions replace those of these worthy gentlemen. > > Ken     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: imitation From: <JFHoppeNO@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:21:08 EST     --part1_170.5888a59.29493254_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I received your snowball! But it was not the first! Thanks anyway! Joe   --part1_170.5888a59.29493254_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I received your = snowball! &nbsp;But it was not the first! Thanks anyway! <BR>Joe</FONT></HTML>   --part1_170.5888a59.29493254_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Imatations From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:33:00 -0500   Russ, you replied to Ross's statement...   I still don't believe you are right. In our day, perhaps, a Viola da =3D Gamba, for example, is a flue, but there have been times and =3D organbuilders who made it as a reed stop, more like a guttural Trumpet. Voicers try to create what they would deem a beautiful sound. I do not =3D believe they try to imitate actual instruments, unless they are trying, = =3D perhaps, to do something orchestral as in a very large instrument or a ************************************************************* I personally do not like the concept of the "symphonic organ"... leave = that to the BSO, but you can't turn your head to the history of organ = building and the obvious... The organ did strive to imitate real = instruments. Some of the earliest examples of this imitation, including = the flute and recorder stops, are the Kromhorn, Dulzian and Regal.     Wayne      
(back) Subject: Re: imitation From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:11:03 -0600   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --Boundary_(ID_kngibweYl0lEVi17rZv79Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   On 12/12/01 4:27 PM, Ross & Lynda Wards wrote:   > Not quite the same intention.   On the contrary, if you seek to imitate an instrument, the intention is precisely the same whether you try to get a similar sound by blowing air through pipes, which you apparently approve of, or by creating a digital sample and playing it back by moving air with a loudspeaker, which you clearly do not approve of. The builder=3DB9s intent is the same in both = cases even though the technology used is very different.   Russ   --Boundary_(ID_kngibweYl0lEVi17rZv79Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: imitation</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Helvetica">On 12/12/01 4:27 PM, Ross &amp; Lynda Wards = wrote:<BR> <BR> </FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Helvetica">Not quite the same = intention.<BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Helvetica"><BR> On the contrary, if you seek to imitate an instrument, the intention is = precisely the same whether you try to get a similar sound by blowing air = through pipes, which you apparently approve of, or by creating a digital = sample and playing it back by moving air with a loudspeaker, which you = clearly do not approve of. The builder&#8217;s intent is the same in both = cases even though the technology used is very different.<BR> <BR> Russ</FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --Boundary_(ID_kngibweYl0lEVi17rZv79Q)--  
(back) Subject: Re: Ross' comments about the Cornet From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:33:54 -0600   ---- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: Ross' comments about the Cornet     > Now, the question I have is this: Would it be better to have > the 5 stops for the cornet be separate for individual use as needed, or have > all 5 ranks on the same slider and knob?   Traditionally, the Cornet was mounted on a separate windchest so that it = had a common wind source and the five ranks would cohere more efficiently. = With efficient modern winding systems there is really no reason why the five ranks should not be available separately. As it would then be possible to use anything from 1 to 5 of the ranks independently, this would add = greatly to their versatility. As, however, this will involve considerably more mechanism, it will cost a great deal more. Furthermore, was it intended = to make the Cornet full compass? Or was it only to start at middle C? Or was it to be a III-V rank Cornet? If the 8, 4 and 2 foot ranks were full = compass there would be a lot more to be gained having them draw independently, = than if all the ranks are short compass. Even so, there are some registrations that would benefit from having a full compass Tierce and Nazard. = OBviously, though, having the Cornet full compass would also add greatly to the cost. Another consideration is whether Tierce and Nazard stops are available elsewhere on the organ; if they are, then perhaps it is not worth the expense of having the Cornet ranks draw separately.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Cornets From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:57:01 -0800       "John L. Speller" wrote:   > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 11:39 PM > Subject: Ross' comments about the Cornet > > > Now, the question I have is this: Would it be better to have > > the 5 stops for the cornet be separate for individual use as needed, = or > have > > all 5 ranks on the same slider and knob? > > Traditionally, the Cornet was mounted on a separate windchest so that it = had > a common wind source and the five ranks would cohere more efficiently. = With > efficient modern winding systems there is really no reason why the five > ranks should not be available separately.   Hmmm ... but isn't the above statement about cohesion still true, as = regards placing all the ranks on a single wind-channel?   > As it would then be possible to > use anything from 1 to 5 of the ranks independently, this would add = greatly > to their versatility. As, however, this will involve considerably more > mechanism, it will cost a great deal more. Furthermore, was it intended = to > make the Cornet full compass? Or was it only to start at middle C? Or = was > it to be a III-V rank Cornet? If the 8, 4 and 2 foot ranks were full = compass > there would be a lot more to be gained having them draw independently, = than > if all the ranks are short compass. Even so, there are some = registrations > that would benefit from having a full compass Tierce and Nazard. = OBviously, > though, having the Cornet full compass would also add greatly to the = cost. > Another consideration is whether Tierce and Nazard stops are available > elsewhere on the organ; if they are, then perhaps it is not worth the > expense of having the Cornet ranks draw separately. >   I find it REALLY annoying when the ONLY Nazard and Tierce ranks on a = manual are short compass, PARTICULARLY if it's the Great manual and that's where the = main Trumpet stop lives.   The typical Basse de Trompette registration calls for:   Bourdon 8 Prestant 4 Nazard 2 2/3 Quarte de Nazard 2 (wide-scale) Tierce 1 3/5 Trompette 8 Clairon 4   and MOST of those pieces use the full bass end of the compass, at LEAST = down to low G, if not all the way down to low C.   Ditto the Grand Jeu registration ... a lot of the clang and snarl comes = from those fiery Tierces in the BASS.   For that matter, the Tierce en Taille pieces do the same thing, minus the Trompette and Clairon.   I suppose it wouldn't matter on the Recit if one had a short-compass = Cornet, as long as there were two OTHER full-compass Cornets or Nazards and Tierces = in the Great and Positive for dialogues, etc. ... but it should be pointed out = that many larger French organs had BOTH Cornets AND independent full-compass = Nazards and Tierces in at LEAST the Great AND Positive.   In addition, full-compass Nazards and Tierces have other uses than in = French baroque music (grin).   Wouldn't a full-compass Cornet III-V ranks (or even II-V, though I don't = ever recall seeing that) be a possible compromise for reasons of space and = money? That way at least you'd have the Nazard and the Tierce all the way down.   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Jeff's Cornet From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:10:52 +1300   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0006_01C183F0.BCA368A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Jeff, Two others have jumped in before me while I'm waiting for the design of = =3D what you already have on the other 2 manuals and the Pedals. However, =3D that doesn't concern me in the slightest: I'd listen well to what John =3D Speller and Bud are saying - good common sense. If possible, I too would want the ranks to draw separately if there were = =3D no Nazard and Tierce elsewhere, and especially if it is intended that =3D the 8ft and 4ft are to go down to CC. If indeed you do not have these sorts of ranks elsewhere in the organ =3D (please let's know your scheme a.s.a.p.) I'd be inclined to make the =3D ranks slightly different in tone on this 3rd manual. Sure, that would =3D make a compromise, but I'd rather have some stops that are almost =3D perfect for a variety of things, than some stops which are ideal for one = =3D purpose and useless for other things. Do you follow? So, instead of all = =3D the 5rks of the Cornet being gedackts and open flutes, I'd want to see =3D the 8ft as a big-scale Gedackt, the 4ft as a Rohr Flute, the Nazard and = =3D Tierce as flutey Gemshorns, and the 2ft as a normal Gemshorn, but these = =3D last three all of the same power.=3D20 That is only theoretical, until we know your existing organ, what the =3D size of the building is, and what sort of acoustics you have. In spite of this lack of knowledge so far, do John Speller and Bud agree = =3D with the above? Ross   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0006_01C183F0.BCA368A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dwindows-1252"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3D3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV>Jeff,</DIV> <DIV>Two others have jumped in before me while I'm waiting for the =3D design of=3D20 what you already have on the other 2 manuals and the Pedals. However, =3D that=3D20 doesn't concern me in the slightest: I'd listen well to what John =3D Speller and=3D20 Bud are saying - good common sense.</DIV> <DIV>If possible, I too would want the ranks to draw separately if there = =3D were no=3D20 Nazard and Tierce elsewhere, and especially if it is intended that the =3D 8ft and=3D20 4ft are to go down to CC.</DIV> <DIV>If&nbsp;indeed you do not have these sorts of ranks elsewhere in =3D the organ=3D20 (please let's know your scheme a.s.a.p.) I'd be inclined to make the =3D ranks=3D20 slightly different in tone on this 3rd manual. Sure, that would make = a=3D20 compromise, but I'd rather have some stops that are almost perfect for a = =3D variety=3D20 of things, than some stops which are ideal for one purpose and useless =3D for other=3D20 things. Do you follow? So, instead of all the 5rks of the Cornet being =3D gedackts=3D20 and open flutes, I'd want to see the 8ft as a big-scale Gedackt, the 4ft = =3D as a=3D20 Rohr Flute, the Nazard and Tierce as flutey Gemshorns, and the 2ft as a = =3D normal=3D20 Gemshorn, but these last three all of the same power. </DIV> <DIV>That is only theoretical, until we know your existing organ, what =3D the size=3D20 of the building is, and what sort of acoustics you have.</DIV> <DIV>In spite of this lack of knowledge so far, do John Speller and Bud = =3D agree=3D20 with the above?</DIV> <DIV>Ross</DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0006_01C183F0.BCA368A0--      
(back) Subject: Re: Jeff's Cornet From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:26:17 -0800       Ross & Lynda Wards wrote:   > Jeff,(snip)If possible, I too would want the ranks to draw separately > if there were no Nazard and Tierce elsewhere, and especially if it is > intended that the 8ft and 4ft are to go down to CC.If indeed you do > not have these sorts of ranks elsewhere in the organ (please let's > know your scheme a.s.a.p.) I'd be inclined to make the ranks slightly > different in tone on this 3rd manual. Sure, that would make a > compromise, but I'd rather have some stops that are almost perfect for > a variety of things, than some stops which are ideal for one purpose > and useless for other things. Do you follow? So, instead of all the > 5rks of the Cornet being gedackts and open flutes, I'd want to see the > 8ft as a big-scale Gedackt, the 4ft as a Rohr Flute, the Nazard and > Tierce as flutey Gemshorns, and the 2ft as a normal Gemshorn, but > these last three all of the same power.(snip)In spite of this lack of > knowledge so far, do John Speller and Bud agree with the above?Ross   Yes, other than the fact (often overlooked) that the 4' rank in a FRENCH cornet (at least) is INVARIABLY a PRINCIPAL-scale rank, and also that the 2' is invariably WIDE-scale, rather than a tapered Gemshorn.   That said, I hasten to add that the 19th century Anglo-American "Dolce" Cornet (usually composed of Dulciana-ish pipes throughout) was/is also very useful in organs of somewhat larger size, to color the Swell 8' strings, flutes, and even the Oboe.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Ross' comments about the Cornet From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:48:56 EST     --part1_183.a603bd.29497f28_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 12/12/01 8:34:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlspeller@mindspring.com writes:     > Traditionally, the Cornet was mounted on a separate windchest so that it = had > a common wind source and the five ranks would cohere more efficiently.   Wasn't the mounted cornet also placed on a separate and raised windchest = to give it more prominence for solo purposes? Also, wasn't this cornet in addition to the other cornets in the organ which were used for playing = duos and with the principal chorus? If so, might this account for its short compass since solos seldom would go below middle c. My limited = experience with these has been that they are voiced more boldly than the other cornet =   stops in the organ. Is this not the common practice?   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Please visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ and wander through the Mall Without Walls   --part1_183.a603bd.29497f28_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 12/12/01 8:34:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, jlspeller@mindspring.com = writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Traditionally, the = Cornet was mounted on a separate windchest so that it had <BR>a common wind source and the five ranks would cohere more efficiently. = &nbsp;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Wasn't the mounted cornet also placed on a separate and raised = windchest to give it more prominence for solo purposes? = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, wasn't this cornet in addition to the other = cornets in the organ which were used for playing duos and with the = principal chorus? &nbsp;If so, might this account for its short compass = since solos seldom would go below middle c. &nbsp;&nbsp;My limited = experience with these has been that they are voiced more boldly than the = other cornet stops in the organ. &nbsp;&nbsp;Is this not the common = practice? <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Please visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;and wander through the Mall Without Walls</FONT></HTML>   --part1_183.a603bd.29497f28_boundary--