PipeChat Digest #2603 - Thursday, December 27, 2001
 
Re: water damage at St. John the Divine
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: Amplification
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Amplification
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
sound from in front of, sound from in back of
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Christmas Eve - Trinity, Stamford, CT
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
RE: water damage at St. John the Divine
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience
  by "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net>
Re: The Postlude
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
Re: Amplification
  by <PHarri5833@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: water damage at St. John the Divine From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:38:17 -0500   Yeah Mack, but maybe there's somethin' that I mist. Stan   Mack wrote: > > Fopr God's Sakre People!!! Give it up. Dorothy Papadakos, The Organist > there SAID DAYS AGO there is no water damage to the organ. > > You all have that much free time? Get a life, >    
(back) Subject: Re: Amplification From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:47:12 EST     --part1_76.14d2163e.295be5b0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 12/26/01 6:40:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul-austin@ntlworld.com writes:     > I have brought this problem to the attention of the PCC (Parochial = Church > Council) who have asked me to look into what systems are available to > amplify a pipe organ.   The only direction I can point you in is hopefully avoidance of amplifying =   ONLY the organ. My approach would be to install another pipe organ in the =   nave for use on hymns!! Failing that (heh heh), I would suggest = amplifying BOTH the choir and organ together, with a switch at the console to turn = those mikes off and on for use ONLY when they are needed. Another possibility =   would be to add a principal chorus in the nave toward the front, not in = the west end, or somewhere in the main organ but voiced so that it would fill = the room so everyone could hear. Mixtures are not the answer...... it is = good solid foundation tone at 8 and 4 that is needed. Maybe a nice strong reed = or two.   Just for fun (at least for me) can you give some more specifics about the organ (spec) and how it is configured in the room, the room itself, and = etc. Pictures would be nice!!! Do you have a webpage??? ;-)   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly & Dewi http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/baskerbargains Please visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_76.14d2163e.295be5b0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 12/26/01 6:40:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul-austin@ntlworld.com = writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have brought = this problem to the attention of the PCC (Parochial Church Council) who = have asked me to look into what systems are available to amplify a pipe = organ. &nbsp;Can anybody point me in the right direction?</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>The only direction I can point you in is hopefully avoidance of = amplifying ONLY the organ. &nbsp;My approach would be to install another = pipe organ in the nave for use on hymns!! &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Failing that = (heh heh), I would suggest amplifying BOTH the choir and organ together, = with a switch at the console to turn those mikes off and on for use ONLY = when they are needed. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Another possibility would be to = add a principal chorus in the nave toward the front, not in the west end, = or somewhere in the main organ but voiced so that it would fill the room = so everyone could hear. &nbsp;&nbsp;Mixtures are not the answer...... it = is good solid foundation tone at 8 and 4 that is needed. &nbsp;Maybe a = nice strong reed or two. <BR> <BR>Just for fun (at least for me) can you give some more specifics about = the organ (spec) and how it is configured in the room, the room itself, = and etc. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pictures would be nice!!! = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Do you have a webpage??? &nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi = &nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/baskerbargains <BR>Please visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_76.14d2163e.295be5b0_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Amplification From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:48:28 EST     --part1_bd.1963f4b8.295be5fc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 12/26/01 7:09:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:     > I suppose because of the historic nature of the church it's not possible = to > put a ceiling in the tower and close it off. >   AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH..... BITE THINE TONGUE!!!     Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly & Dewi http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/baskerbargains Please visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_bd.1963f4b8.295be5fc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 12/26/01 7:09:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I suppose because = of the historic nature of the church it's not possible to put a ceiling in = the tower and close it off. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH..... &nbsp;BITE THINE TONGUE!!! <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi = &nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/baskerbargains <BR>Please visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_bd.1963f4b8.295be5fc_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:50:27 EST   In a message dated 12/26/2001 4:34:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, manderusa@earthlink.net writes:   > > In my Oberlin days (the 50s!!), there was a party TRAIN, on the old = Erie > Lackawanna Railroad, ("The route of the Phoebe Snow - the smoothest = roadbed > in the East"). It too was an all night affair, leaving us off at the = ferry > dock in Hoboken at something like 7 a.m., where we took the boat to > Manhattan and points beyond. I guess we were taken by bus to Cleveland = to > pick the thing up - I am not sure. There was space, and there were lots = of > people in each car, so it was a party for much of the way, with people > dropping off as the a.m. hours advanced. I recall being really groggy = on > that ferry ride across the Hudson, followed by an hour on the train. I = WAS > young and resilient! > ah yes the Erie Lackawanna, with the old straw seats!. it was (is) the = train from Summit into Hoboken to get the PATH tubes into the city. i had a = friend who actually did take the Phoebe Snow to Erie, PA .  
(back) Subject: sound from in front of, sound from in back of From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:07:35 -0800   I would like to hear some rational arguments about this.   In my experience, it's been demonstrated again and again (by orchestras placed in front of choruses drowning them out) that the sound (although probably impossible in that case, except for orchestra hall organs) needs to come from BEHIND the singers.   I've fought to keep choirs together when the sound source was in front of the singers ... balance was IMPOSSIBLE to hear, as the console was invariably BEHIND the sound source. Nor could the choir hear the organ properly.   OLD churches had it right: the organ elevated on the central axis, whether front or back, with the singers in FRONT of the organ. And there were just about as many of one as the other, whether Protestant or Catholic.   For the most part, only the ANGLICANS jammed their former west gallery organs into sacristies and broom closets in the chancel in the name of liturgical "correctness" ... sound FAMILIAR??!!   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Christmas Eve - Trinity, Stamford, CT From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:27:41 -0600   Glenda wrote:   > Malcolm, I too love the Willan setting, and see nothing wrong with using > it with Rite II, as long as the congregation is adequately warned in the > bulletin to expect it. Of course, my congregation can't read bulletins, > but hum along anyway. I am encouraging the priest for us to do Rite I > during Advent next year, or maybe during Lent, just so we don't > completely lose that glorious old language.   The Prayer Book rubric certainly allows for doing Rite I music with the = Rite II, and our church often does this with some of canticles and with the Willan and Merbecke settings of the communion. As a matter of fact we = used the Willan Kyrie, Sanctus & Benedictus and Agnus Dei during Advent this year. We have also recently used the Friedell Mag & Nunc in F, and plan = to use it again in Epiphany. Some churches even use the Coverdale psalms, though we use the Prayer Book version of these, with our own pointing, to Anglican chant.   John Speller, St. Mark's Church (Episcopal), St. Louis.      
(back) Subject: Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:39:37 -0600   MFoxy9795@aol.com wrote:   > ah yes the Erie Lackawanna, with the old straw seats!. it was (is) the = train > from Summit into Hoboken to get the PATH tubes into the city. i had a = friend > who actually did take the Phoebe Snow to Erie, PA .   For the benefit of the uninitiated, I should explain that the Erie and the Lackwanna, Delaware and Western Railroads, both originally 6' gauge, and = later merged into the Erie-Lackawanna, were anthracite railroads and their = locomotives burnt hard (anthracite) coal rather than bituminous coal. This was made = possible by the wide firebox, invented by John E. Wootten of the Reading Railroad. = The absence of bitumen made anthracite a marginally cleaner fuel, producing = cleaner smoke, and the idea was that you didn't get as grimy traveling on the Erie-Lackawanna. Hence Phoebe Snow, all dressed in white, and doubtless = like Mr. Wootten, whose wife Mary started the flower rota at our old parish, Christ Episcopal in Reading, an Episcopalian. A famous poster showed her saying, = "My clothes stay white from morn 'till night, Upon the road of anthracite."   John Speller        
(back) Subject: RE: water damage at St. John the Divine From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 22:17:54 -0600   And a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you TOO, Mack.     > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Mack > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 7:12 PM   > Fopr God's Sakre People!!! Give it up. Dorothy Papadakos, The Organist > there SAID DAYS AGO there is no water damage to the organ. > > You all have that much free time? Get a life,    
(back) Subject: Re: Driving thru Pennsylvania at midnight is a surreal experience From: "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 23:41:39 -0500       MFoxy9795@aol.com wrote:   > ah yes the Erie Lackawanna, with the old straw seats!. it was (is) the = train > from Summit into Hoboken to get the PATH tubes into the city. i had a = friend > who actually did take the Phoebe Snow to Erie, PA .   Well, that's verrry intelesting, seeing as how the Weary Erie did not have = trackage to Erie, PA, and the Lackawanna's 'Phoebe Snow' train had Buffalo, NY as its terminus, = since that railroad did not go to Erie either.   Stan Yoder Pittsburgh  
(back) Subject: Re: The Postlude From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 00:23:30 EST     --part1_193.58991d.295c0a52_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Alan,   I heard my grandfather tell that story many times and he swore it was HIS story. It's been around a long time. Lee   --part1_193.58991d.295c0a52_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alan, <BR> <BR>I heard my grandfather tell that story many times and he swore it was = HIS story. &nbsp;It's been around a long time. &nbsp;Lee</FONT></HTML>   --part1_193.58991d.295c0a52_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Amplification From: <PHarri5833@aol.com> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 03:41:39 EST     --part1_76.14d64eb1.295c38c3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 27/12/01 00:32:47 GMT Standard Time, "Paul Austin" < paul-austin@ntlworld.com> writes:   > Dear List, > > I am ( and have been for the past 11 years) Organist at an average size > parish church in the North East of England (web address below). The = church > has recently invested in a state of the art amplification system, but > unfortunately the organ wasn't amplified. In between the congregation = and > the organ / choir area we have the main tower of the 1000 year old > building. Most of the sound produced by the organ and the choir goes up =   > the tower before it reaches the congregation, which results in the choir =   > singing at one speed and the congregation at another, purely because = they > can't here me!. Throughout the Christmas services, this problem has = been > 'amplified' by the fact we have had huge congregations. I have brought > this problem to the attention of the PCC (Parochial Church Council) who > have asked me to look into what systems are available to amplify a pipe > organ. Can anybody point me in the right direction? > > Many thanks in advance. > > Paul.   Although my profession is sound engineering, I write now as an organist = and hopefully also a musician! I suspect you may actually be lucky your organ = has not been included in the type of sound system most often found in UK = Anglican Parish Churches as in those where it has, the results are often = disappointing and frequently positively awful!   Broadly speaking church sound systems fall into two categories. The first = and most common type found in UK Anglican buildings which primarily use a traditional organ/choir style of service is designed primarily to help = speech be more clearly audible, often with an induction loop for the hard of hearing. The alternative, larger and more expensive systems are intended = for the performance of amplified music from keyboards, drums, woodwind and = brass and solo and backing singers. It is impossible to judge your style of = worship from the web site but I am guessing from your comments about choir and = organ problems that it is the former and not a "praise band" led style of music.   Much contemporary "popular" and "Praise band" music is designed with amplification in mind, indeed this is the only way a musical balance can = be achieved. As such listeners expect the sound to seem to come from loudspeakers and the colouration and distortions inherent in even quite = good systems are totally acceptable to the ear.   Listeners do not normally expect church choirs and organs to be heard live =   through loudspeakers and when this must be done, a very high calibre of system is needed for it to be effective and not sound artificial. The cost =   for such a system is impossible to estimate without surveying the site but = it would inevitably require many speaker cabinets and multiple amplifiers costing a great many tens of thousands of pounds (and even more US$ and = yet more Aus$!).   Even if this seems a desirable approach, other problems arise. Anything architectural which is an acoustic barrier to the organ and choir sound reaching the congregation will also block the reverse sound from the congregation getting back to you. Once you go down the route of applying electronics to relay your music, you also need to have reverse monitoring = so you and the choir can hear what the congregation is actually doing! = Without this, you will seem to be holding your own isolated service which is being =   broadcast to a remote congregation and you, the choir and the congregation =   cease to be one worshipping group of people and become two or more divided =   parties!   Although I remember my one time teacher, the late Conrad Eden, sometimes = used a Nave Triforium placed microphone and a pair of headphones to allow him = to hear the congregation in Durham Cathedral, driving a sophisticated sound system with organist and choir foldback is not a task for a sidesman or churchwarden unless he also happens to be quite a skilled sound engineer.   I therefore suggest the right approach to your problem is not to look at = ways of using the new sound system, no matter how "state of the art", but = instead to address the problems that probably existed for very much longer. This = may lead to conclusions such as the choir and/or organ may be in the wrong = place for the type of worship now being led. Moving an organ is obviously an expensive business but the costs to provide adequate amplification may be = of a similar order yet give a musically less satisfactory result. I have = visited Norton some years ago as my mother was brought up there. If audio = engineering is the route you decide go down, I'll gladly provide some consultancy, = even free in the early stages!   Good luck, Peter   Peter M Harrison Emmanuel Church, Holcombe, Lancs, GB   & P H Music 48 Moorfield : Edgworth Bolton : Lancs : BL7 0DH : GB fax: +44 (0)1204 853445 : tel: +44 (0)1204 853310 web: www.phmusic.co.uk   --part1_76.14d64eb1.295c38c3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 27/12/01 00:32:47 GMT = Standard Time, "Paul Austin" &lt;paul-austin@ntlworld.com&gt; writes:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Dear List,<BR> <BR> I am ( and have been for the past 11 years) Organist at an average size = parish church in the North East of England (web address below).&nbsp; The = church has recently invested in a state of the art amplification system, = but unfortunately the organ wasn't amplified.&nbsp; In between the = congregation and the organ / choir area we have the main tower of the 1000 = year old building.&nbsp; Most of the sound produced by the organ and the = choir goes up the tower before it reaches the congregation, which results = in the choir singing at one speed and the congregation at another, purely = because they can't here me!.&nbsp; Throughout the Christmas services, this = problem has been 'amplified' by the fact we have had huge = congregations.&nbsp; I have brought this problem to the attention of the = PCC (Parochial Church Council) who have asked me to look into what systems = are available to amplify a pipe organ.&nbsp; Can anybody point me in the = right direction?<BR> <BR> Many thanks in advance.<BR> <BR> Paul.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Although my profession is sound engineering, I write now as an organist = and hopefully also a musician! I suspect you may actually be lucky your = organ has not been included in the type of sound system most often found = in UK Anglican Parish Churches as in those where it has, the results are = often disappointing and frequently positively awful!<BR> <BR> Broadly speaking church sound systems fall into two categories. The first = and most common type found in UK Anglican buildings which primarily use a = traditional organ/choir style of service is designed primarily to help = speech be more clearly audible, often with an induction loop for the hard = of hearing. The alternative, larger and more expensive systems are = intended for the performance of amplified music from keyboards, drums, = woodwind and brass and solo and backing singers. It is impossible to judge = your style of worship from the web site but I am guessing from your = comments about choir and organ problems that it is the former and not a = "praise band" led style of music.<BR> <BR> Much contemporary "popular" and "Praise band" music is designed with = amplification in mind, indeed this is the only way a musical balance can = be achieved. As such listeners expect the sound to seem to come from = loudspeakers and the colouration and distortions inherent in even quite = good systems are totally acceptable to the ear.<BR> <BR> Listeners do not normally expect church choirs and organs to be heard live = through loudspeakers and when this must be done, a very high calibre of system is needed for it to be effective and not sound = artificial. The cost for such a system is impossible to estimate without = surveying the site but it would inevitably require many speaker cabinets = and multiple amplifiers costing a great many tens of thousands of pounds = (and even more US$ and yet more Aus$!).<BR> <BR> Even if this seems a desirable approach, other problems arise. Anything = architectural which is an acoustic barrier to the organ and choir sound = reaching the congregation will also block the reverse sound from the = congregation getting back to you. Once you go down the route of applying = electronics to relay your music, you also need to have reverse monitoring = so you and the choir can hear what the congregation is actually doing! = Without this, you will seem to be holding your own isolated service which = is being broadcast to a remote congregation and you, the choir and the = congregation cease to be one worshipping group of people and become two or = more divided parties!<BR> <BR> Although I remember my one time teacher, the late Conrad Eden, sometimes = used a Nave Triforium placed microphone and a pair of headphones to allow = him to hear the congregation in Durham Cathedral, driving a sophisticated = sound system with organist and choir foldback is not a task for a sidesman = or churchwarden unless he also happens to be quite a skilled sound = engineer.<BR> <BR> I therefore suggest the right approach to your problem is not to look at = ways of using the new sound system, no matter how "state of the art", but = instead to address the problems that probably existed for very much = longer. This may lead to conclusions such as the choir and/or organ may be = in the wrong place for the type of worship now being led. Moving an organ = is obviously an expensive business but the costs to provide adequate = amplification may be of a similar order yet give a musically less = satisfactory result. I have visited Norton some years ago as my mother was = brought up there. If audio engineering is the route you decide go down, = I'll gladly provide some consultancy, even free in the early stages!<BR> <BR> Good luck,<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> Peter M Harrison<BR> Emmanuel Church, Holcombe, Lancs, GB<BR> <BR> &amp; P H Music<BR> 48 Moorfield : Edgworth<BR> Bolton : Lancs : BL7 0DH : GB<BR> fax: +44 (0)1204 853445 : tel: +44 (0)1204 853310<BR> web: www.phmusic.co.uk</FONT></HTML>   --part1_76.14d64eb1.295c38c3_boundary--