PipeChat Digest #1807 - Tuesday, February 6, 2001
 
RE: organist as organ designers
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org>
Katzenmoyer Recital Sunday 11 Feb
  by "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: some heretical thoughts!
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: organist as organ designers( some have it, some don't)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St  John's, Denv
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: organ conservation
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St  John's, Denv
  by "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: organ conservation
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: some heretical thoughts!
  by "Gary Blevins" <gsblvns@camalott.com>
Re: organ conservation
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U.
  by <GRSCoLVR@aol.com>
Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U.
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U.
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U.
  by "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U.
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St John's,  Denv
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: some heretical thoughts
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: organist as organ designers From: "Randy Terry" <randyterry@laumc.org> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:49:50 -0800       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of RonSeverin@aol.com   >Holtkamp Jr. said it all, in a recent article. When an organist gets >his hands on an organ, you get a bunch of pretty stops that don't >work together. An organ builder works to produce an ensemble and >chorus building even on a small organ.   I am not at all sure it doesn't work both ways. I have heard some very = fine examples of instruments where the organist was heavily involved in aspects as detailed as scaling. I've seen cases where due to an organist's influence entire instruments were completely rescaled several notes larger to very good effect.   There are two things at work here and they are the same whether you are an organist or builder.   1.) One needs to have a sound basic understanding of how the mechanics and physics of the instrument work, and one also needs to have an = understanding of the music - the literature, as well as how a church instrument needs to function.   2.) To often number one (1) above takes a back seat to an individual's personal preferences.   You may be equiped with detailed knowledge of organ construction and voicing, but if you have bad taste or the inability to put the right instrument in the right location, or don't understand music, the game is over. And it really does work both ways. If you know how to put the = right style of instrument in the right location and can articulate this with a builder who will work with you, rather than assume you are an ignorant organist who doesn't know his a** from a hole in the ground, splendid results can occur.   It is really hard, isn't it, to know when all these ingredients are = *right!*   Randy    
(back) Subject: Katzenmoyer Recital Sunday 11 Feb From: "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 20:35:14 -0500 (EST)   Steven Katzenmoyer, organist of Calvary United Church of Christ, 640 Centre Ave, Oley Street, READING PA , will play a recital Sunday at 4 p.m. on their Gress-Miles two-manual. He is a graduate of Millersville U. and Shenandoah and teaches elementary instrumental music in Fleetwood PA schools.   I don't know the program, save that he's playing "As the Dew From Heaven Distilling," the title work on my CD of some years ago.   No admission; offering. Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts! From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:11:38 -0500   Speaking of Denver organs, what ever became of the 4 manual Wurtilizer in the Denver Municipal Auditorium? I have a pic of it: It sits in a huge swell box on one wall.   Danke, Rick    
(back) Subject: Re: organist as organ designers( some have it, some don't) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:14:40 EST   Hi Randy:   You are right also! I couldn't have expressed what you said better, and = I'm glad you said it! Acoustics, denominational use, all figure into the mix. Scaling as you said is so important, voicing is another! So many things go into a successful work of art. The organ is one of those instruments.   Ron Severin   Randy writes:   There are two things at work here and they are the same whether you are an organist or builder.   1.) One needs to have a sound basic understanding of how the mechanics and physics of the instrument work, and one also needs to have an = understanding of the music - the literature, as well as how a church instrument needs to function.   2.) To often number one (1) above takes a back seat to an individual's personal preferences.   Randy writes a very telling and thoughtful maxim:   It is really hard, isn't it, to know when all these ingredients are = *right!*   Ron writes:   Wonderful food for thought! The ear is everything, and as much as we would like to think to the contrary, perseptions of the ear vary from one person to another. I do think that having said this, some will hear high pitched strident sounds and perseve them as full and rich I suppose. Others will hear a full rich sound, and perceive it to be heavy and muddy. Could this be a lowed threshold of hearing harmonics? I really don't know, but I suspect that it is the case.   The absolute bottom line is does the organ blend, does it do its job, are there nice suprises in combining stops and the resultant colors.   One of the surprises I got was combining and octave Aeoline 4' with any stopped flute 8' in the organ produced an additional soft Principal = Chorus. The 4' produced a beautiful soft Geigen very useful with a choir. There are these kinds of surprises all over an organ of true merit and quality.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St John's, Denver, St. Joseph's, Buffalo From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:24:20 -0800   At 01:29 PM 2/5/2001 -0800, BuuD-by-the-BeacH wrote: >But I think it's time to admit that the American Classic movement as >typified by him was a dead end ... a GLORIOUS dead end, but a dead end >nonetheless.<snip>   Surely, GDH made a lot of compromises....such as replacing Skinner's "box of color stops" with vertical choruses in the same sized organ. SOMETHING =   had to give, now, didn't it?   >It has often been said that the Oberlin organs were a turning point<snip>   ....and were the result of sloshing down many Martinis...   >In fairness to GHD, much went wrong with the Finney Chapel rebuild that >was beyond his control <snip>   Indeed! Design something to a certain specification, then cut the budget in half. This is tantamount to starting to build a B-2, running out of funds, and then winding up with "half a Flying Wing"! Ain't gonna work.   >Anyway, back to St. Mark's ... here's an organ of over 100 ranks with NO >reeds on the Great (a GDH signature practice) OR the Positiv, and NO 8' >OBOE to be found ANYWHERE.<snip>   There's a point here? If someone WANTED a chorus reed on the Great, it = was theirs to have by simply using S2G 8"! That's what it's THERE for, yanno. Personally, I've never HAD a need for a "Great" reed at 8', should =   the organ have a number of suitable reeds elsewhere. For the tutti, everything's all mashed together anyway, so who CARES where it is, as long =   as it's available? One nice thing in using the Great principal chorus = WITH the Swell Trompette is that the reed is under expression...mix to taste!   Then, BuuD-by-the-Beach sez:   >There are two color reeds: a 16' Krumhorn and an 8' Vox Humana ... EVERY >other reed on the organ is a chorus trumpet. > >But infinite gradations of chorus trumpet do NOT make an instrument = suited >to play the LITERATURE ... sorry ... particularly not the ROMANTIC >literature that GDH organs are supposed to be such a wonderful vehicle >for.<snip>   Uhhhh....uhhhh....::::glancing through some Franck:::: OK, WHAT two reeds =   did Franck specify MOST on his quiet reed solos, and ppp segments? See = the answer in BuuD's statement above. And YES, a suitable 8' Cromorne is available through the use of Unison Off and a supercoupler. He DID = specify Oboe also, true, as did some other composers of the era, but... 16' Krummy =   + Unison Off + Super =3D 8' Oboe. Cormorne ~=3D Oboe, close enough for = gubmint work. Sorry.   >If the organist wants an Oboe, let him HAVE an Oboe (grin). The needs of >the LITERATURE certainly justify it.<snip>   If the organ's big, sure, why not? But, if it's the usual 3 manual = "church appliance", and you have the Krummhorn....WHY BOTHER?   >the digitrash will fail after a period of years   I love it when non-technical people make these prognostications! Remember =   in the '40s when everyone was saying how Markowitz' Allens wouldn't last more than a few years before the tubes needed replacement? WRONG! Many old B, C and W model STILL soldier on, MOST with the original 6SN7 oscillators! See me in fifty years to see who was right on this one. As was said years ago of a certain haughty automobile marque: "That which is =   good will make itself known."   >St. Joseph's Cathedral, Buffalo - sorry, folks, but that is the WORST >Hook and Hastings I have EVER played<snip>   Coasting on legend here, and the writings and rantings over others, but = H&H was history by about 1910, with their 19th century console appointments, maudlin specifications and voicing and poor overall design. Skinner ran them right off the map, and H&H became "low-ball bid" competition to him after WW I, as was the case at "St. Rockefeller's". The 1930 Riverside Church mess (which St. Joe's is oft compared to) was a similar disaster. H&H couldn't design or build their way out of a paper sack in the 20th century; the evidence is quite clear. Scrap it.   >Final point, and I'm off to fetch the asbestos outer-wear (grin): all >three of these organs are working church organs.<snip>   Let's be glad these messes aren't presented to the public as "concert instruments", or the organ will most certainly die! As far as being "church appliances", they'll probably continue to work fine, because, = quite honestly, in many quarters no one much cares anymore about "church" organs =   and music anymore, save the orgo-freaks!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:42:25 EST   Hi Rick:   I do feel your pain, I like solidity and bottom to any organ. I do have a feeling what you describe about the 16' reed in the pedal, is that it is probably 1/4 or 1/2 length. This robs the pedal of a solid floor of tone. Therefore the whole organ gives the appearance of anemia. Bass is so important, and without it the manuals sound shrill and over loud. The ear requires bass to hold everything together. A lackluster 16' Bourdon just is not enough to compensate for the loss. It's also one of the main reasons organists are accused of playing too loud. Not enough bass present.   regards,   Ron Severin   Rick writes:   He played one of the Bach fugues on the Aeolian then marched the party to = the rear (gallery) to play the same piece on the Flentrop. Personally, I liked =   the clarity of the Flentrop but to me the organ has no Gravity. the 16' = reed in the pedal was (to my ears) buzzy and lacked the kind of fundamental I would expect.(anemic is the word that comes to mind). FWIW I am quite an afficianado of Orchestral style organs, thus my interest in the Aeolian. I =   grew up where there are PLENTY of baroque-style organs (Metro DC area). I just prefer a more substantial sense of gravity from a big organ, and the Flentrop did not satisfy my liking for BOTTOM.   Of course that is only my opinion. ;-)   Rick M  
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St John's, Denver, St. Joseph's, Buffalo From: "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:04:35 -0800 (PST)     --- Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> wrote: > At 01:29 PM 2/5/2001 -0800, BuuD-by-the-BeacH wrote:   > Let's be glad these messes aren't presented to the public as "concert > instruments", or the organ will most certainly die! As far as being > "church appliances", they'll probably continue to work fine, because, = quite > honestly, in many quarters no one much cares anymore about "church" = organs > and music anymore, save the orgo-freaks! >   My God, what a statement!!! :-(   Randy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:17:14 EST   In a message dated 2/5/01 5:14:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, = RMaryman@aol.com writes:   << I have a strong interest in preserving this type of organ. >>   Perhaps you should talk to the people at Rutgers U. I used to work for the =   outfit that serviced all the organs on the campus including the Schuke in Vorhees chapel. One day my key holder told me that there were organ = chambers in the front of the chapel. Sure enough we found an unlocked door that led = to a chamber full of (Aeolian) pipes. We found a light switch and found = another door that led to another chamber and then another. I thought "Holy smoke, there has to be 50 ranks in here" Then I noticed the bottom half's of a = 32' rank that continued on up thru the ceiling. I found a ladder and hatch and =   went up to find another three chambers! There was even a little work = station up there complete with drawers full of spare parts. When I asked the boss about it he told me that there was also an Echo division in the ceiling = above the Schuke in the gallery. 12 ranks or so. The 4 manual console had been = sold off many years ago. They bought the Schuke after the leather failed in the =   Aeolian. He later took me exploring in the Echo and in the basement where there is an immense Kinetic blower, the size of a full sized van, and a little Spencer hooked up for suction for the roll player. Most of the = organ is still there. A few ranks have been swiped. I heard that the former head = of the organ dept. Dr. Drinkwater was trying to get state money to restore it =   but I have heard nothing. My boss found the console plans. You should see = the stop list! The String division has what appears to be a 97 pipe rank = unified to every conceivable pitch including a Septieme but it is all STRAIGHT! I know. I looked at that forest of strings. I think I saw a string mixture = too. The last time I was there was about 8 years ago.   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts! From: "Gary Blevins" <gsblvns@camalott.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:47:39 -0600   Hello Rick, According to the OHS Denver handbook, the WurliTzer was sold for $1200, = and broken up for parts. The OHS archives will have more documentation on = this. Hope this helps, -Gary   -----Original Message----- From: VEAGUE <dutchorgan@svs.net> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Monday, February 05, 2001 8:16 PM Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts!     >Speaking of Denver organs, what ever became of the 4 manual Wurtilizer in >the Denver Municipal Auditorium? >I have a pic of it: It sits in a huge swell box on one wall. > >Danke, Rick > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:57:37 EST     --part1_22.1184c6f7.27b0ec51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 2/5/01 10:14:36 PM !!!First Boot!!!, RMaryman@aol.com writes:     > I only wish that I had the opportunity to play both the Aeolian > and the Flentrop for myself...   I really did enjoy the three hours that we were allowed to explore the Flentrop and Aeolian organs from the console. It was glorious.   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_22.1184c6f7.27b0ec51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 2/5/01 10:14:36 PM !!!First = Boot!!!, RMaryman@aol.com <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I only wish that I = had the opportunity to play both the Aeolian <BR>and the Flentrop for myself...</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>I really did enjoy the three hours that we were allowed to explore the =   <BR>Flentrop and Aeolian organs from the console. &nbsp;It was glorious. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D5 FAMILY=3D"DECORATIVE" = FACE=3D"Tempus Sans ITC" LANG=3D"0"><I>Bruce = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"Calisto MT" = LANG=3D"0">Cremona502@cs.com</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D5 = FAMILY=3D"DECORATIVE" FACE=3D"Tempus Sans ITC" LANG=3D"0"> &nbsp; <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Calisto MT" LANG=3D"0">with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest = ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</I></FONT></HTML>   --part1_22.1184c6f7.27b0ec51_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U. From: <GRSCoLVR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:17:58 EST   Regarding the Aeolian in Voorhees chapel at Rutgers University---- I was advised by the President of the Board of Governors of Rutgers last summer that they were quite aware of their "treasure in storage" at = Voorhees and had no intention of "parting it out" --altho it was a possibility a couple of years ago when the space was needed for handicapped restrooms. A plan of restoration is in the works, albeit moving slowly,,but hopefully =   the Aeolian will speak again in the not too distant future. On another but related matter,,,some if not all of the practice pipe = organs at Rutgers were summarily disposed of in the dumpster last summer. I am not certain that an organ program exists or if there are any students = in organ presently at Rutgers,,,,,a sad state of affairs if such is the = case. My .02 cents worth on a very interesting subject. Regards,. ---Roc L V Rockafellow  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U. From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:23:58 EST   In a message dated 2/6/01 1:18:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, = GRSCoLVR@aol.com writes:   << some if not all of the practice pipe organs at Rutgers were summarily disposed of in the dumpster last summer. >>  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U. From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:25:03 EST   In a message dated 2/6/01 1:18:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, = GRSCoLVR@aol.com writes:   << some if not all of the practice pipe organs at Rutgers were summarily disposed of in the dumpster last summer. >>   Just be glad that you didn't have to tune them.   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U. From: "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:36:48 -0800 (PST)     --- GRSCoLVR@aol.com wrote: > On another but related matter,,,some if not all of the practice pipe = organs > at Rutgers were summarily disposed of in the dumpster last summer. >   I had dinner quite by accident with the organist of a very famous = institution in Garden Grove, CA., a few weeks ago and was astonished to hear that in = the continuing program of improvments to that institution's instrument many = pipes simply went into the dumpster. In this case I am sure money is no object, = but I find it wasteful and short sighted when the pipes in perfectly good condition, while not suitable for this organ, could be a perfect match for another instrument and another room.   To think of simply sending any organ to the dumpster is a crime! So much = for the concept of recycling!   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: organ conservation--Rutgers U. From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 01:44:05 EST   In a message dated 2/6/01 1:37:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, randyterryus@yahoo.com writes:   << many pipes simply went into the dumpster. >>   LEAD! Toxic waste! I kid you not. Dumpster =3D Landfill. We don't want = this stuff getting in the ground water. Plus, I know that my pipemake would be more than glad to have it.   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts on St. Mark's, Philadelphia, St John's, Denver, St. Joseph's, Buffalo From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:11:34 +0800   Bob, I wish you would not spend so much effort in generalizing. As I have said before I don't know what problems there may be in the USA but that country is not the whole world. Your statement in the context of Australia is absolute rubbish. Apart from that, the CDs I have obtained from the USA of Church organs in that country makes me believe that what you are saying is rubbish in the context of the USA too! As for the United Kingdom, I subscribe to Organists Review and the articles there on organs in the churches in that country make it clear that your remarks do not fit the scene there either. Europe??? Well tell what you said to a German or a Dutchman and they will laugh you out of town. Get back to earth, man. You are in the clouds! I think Randy got it right. "What a statement"! Bob Elms.    
(back) Subject: Re: some heretical thoughts From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 01:21:37 -0800   At 09:04 PM 2/5/2001 -0800, you wrote: >My God, what a statement!!!<snip>   Sometimes, reality's a bitch. And yes, this isn't Australia, true. But over a 35 year span of involvement, I've seen the whole milieu of church music and organs spiral downward in the toilet of public opinion. The "true believers" will still cling to what they love best, and, hopefully, those in the organ trade will strive toward levelheadedness and musical excellence. But, by and large, it's a shrinking field of influence in the =   US. "Happy-clappy" and the dreaded CCM (notice the CCM CDs being hawked = on TV now) have gassed the religion bizz, but good! If more people would shift focus MORE towards concert hall/public auditoria/school organ preservation/use/installation, we shall persevere. Otherwise, all bets = are off.   DeserTBoB