PipeChat Digest #1789 - Saturday, January 27, 2001
 
Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter
  by <support@opensystemsorgans.com>
Re: Surf City Moller - Day One of Removal (X-posted)
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter(Adenda)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: The Mighty Surf City (Cowabunga, Dudes!) Moller stoplist(X-posted)
  by "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com>
Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted)
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Surf City Moller - Day One of Removal (X-posted)
  by "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com>
Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted)
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted)
  by "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: Moller Revoicing
  by "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Trouble Hearing a Theatre Organ while Playing It
  by "Len Beyersdorfer, MARATHON Digital Publishing" <LenB@MDigital
 

(back) Subject: Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter From: <support@opensystemsorgans.com> Date: 26 Jan 2001 08:00:56 -0800   The replies to this question (why organs don't have 88-key keyboards) that = rest solely on the fact that organs can have stops at pitches other than = 8' have some truth to them, but not the whole truth. Why doesn't my = 8'-only harpsichord have 88 keys? Why do most 8' 1-rank organs like = positivs and regals have fewer than 61?   A fuller answer to the question is much more interesting. To get it, you = have to remember that instruments and their music develop together, and = you have to take social and economic factors into account.   Keyboard instruments got started at a time when most music was limited to = vocal ranges, and the literature didn't require 88 keys. So to get from = the first pianos to the modern version took some kind of push. Most of = that happened in the nineteenth century, and by the nineteenth century, = each keyboard instrument was taking its own evolutionary path for its own = reasons.   The piano's range grew, just as its size and depth of tone grew. The = literature was developing rapidly. Composers demanded more and more from = the instrument, and as soon as the builders found a way to give it to = them, they demanded still more. And with changes in the way music was = sponsored, the piano had to fill larger and larger rooms.   The organ, on the other hand, had been comfortable in large rooms for = centuries, and it was perfectly up to anybody's demands for bombast. It's = true that with a separate division for plenty of bass, and with = higher-than-8' stops for lots of brightness, there wasn't much need for = more range. But don't forget that there was also a powerful = counterincentive: cost, which becomes particularly prohibitive at the = left end of the keyboard. I understand that another octave at the bottom = would double the price of an instrument.   Other keyboard instruments, like the harpsichord, stayed where they were = partly for technical reasons but also because, for the most part, = composers lost interest in them and stopped pushing their limits.   Dick Meckstroth      
(back) Subject: Re: Surf City Moller - Day One of Removal (X-posted) From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:22:52 -0800   At 09:24 PM 1/25/2001 -0800, you wrote: >THEN, in an AMAZING phone call from the Rector tonight, I was told to >prepare a budget for what *I* want done in the way of improvements and >additions. Heavenly Sunshine! (grin).<schnip>   Well, you COULD call our aquatic friend in San Dago and get one of those Hammint/Soozookie "black boxes"...hehehehehe!   DeserTBoB      
(back) Subject: Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:03:32 EST   Hi Dick and list:   One must remember Midmer/Losh Co. who built several organs with 73 note and 85 note keyboards. Atlantic City Auditorium and even some of their church organs. It's also true that Couplers take up the slack on 61 note keyboards. The pedals adding 32 additional notes plus the 61 manual notes adds up to 94 notes. Multiple 61 note keyboards add 122 notes for a three manual, 183 for a four manual, 244 notes for a five manual and so on. Quite simply, THE KING of INSTRUMENTS has more keys than any other instrument, Even a one manual and 32 note pedal. The 64' reed is nearly subsonic and the top of a two foot stop nearly supersonic. There's a range of 117 pitches from 64' to the top of a 2' that can actually be heard. I rest my case! :)   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: I need an Answer to Question from Reporter(Adenda) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:21:05 EST   Hi:   Before anybody jumps on the old case work, I started with 94 notes on a one manual and pedal, skipped a two manual, and said ADD 122, for a three manual, ADD 183 for a four manual, ADD 244 for a five! It's heck of a lot'a keys, and my point, many more than any piano with a mere 88. English pianos mostly have 85 keys AAAA toA5. the top three notes are left off, the English being orderly, and thrifty. :)   Now I may have missed something, but I have never seen a harpsichord with extended manuals ie with over 61 keys. This was suggested in a previous post.   Midmer/Losh build the KING of Keyboards, for The King of Insturments. I suppose there may have been other companies who experimented with extended keyboards, but they were the most high profile for their time.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: The Mighty Surf City (Cowabunga, Dudes!) Moller stoplist(X-posted) From: "Luther Melby" <lmelby@prtel.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:05:32 -0600   Congratulations, I'm happy for you!! :-) Luther   -----Original Message----- From: quilisma@socal.rr.com <quilisma@socal.rr.com> >The priests shook hands on it this afternoon. It's ours (grin). > >Cheers, > >Bud >    
(back) Subject: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:08:25 -0800   All the pipes are out and packed; the swell boxes are down; they were working on disconnecting the wiring and the wind system when I went by at 4 p.m.   We had not one but TWO Alaskan storms blow through this morning, but the console was unscathed, despite the great hole where the rose window was just above it.   Here's a question that's sure to provoke a discussion (grin): the organ man wants to replace the pitman action with electro-mechanical. He says it's something like $18 a note to releather the pitmans, and $14 a note to change it to electro-mechanical.   If this was a historic Skinner, I wouldn't think of it; but it's a 1966 Moller of 11 straight ranks and two borrows ... if we went electro-mechanical and solid-stated the console, we could do some "judicious" unification (grin), like adding the 16' octave of the Trompette and taking it down to the Pedal.   Also, there's this odd business of the Great Principal chorus being exposed, but the Hohl Flute and the Dulciana (and the chimes) (grin) being in this HUGE separate swell box, which I don't think we have room to set up in St. Matthew's. I'm thinking of leaving the whole Great out in the open, and maybe duplexing the 8's from the Swell to the Great for service-playing.   I'm open to arguments (grin) ...   The Rector continues like a kid with a new bicycle (grin) ...   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted) From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:30:10 EST   In a message dated 1/26/01 8:07:34 PM EST, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   > the organ > man wants to replace the pitman action with electro-mechanical. He says > it's something like $18 a note to releather the pitmans, and $14 a note > to change it to electro-mechanical.   As one who has 'electrocuted' a few Moller chests and ALSO rebuilt a = number of Moller pitman chests...$18 per note is a bit pricey for a non-duplexed MOller chest because it is one pitman per note, one pitman retainer (known = to moller folks as 'toilet seats") and the pouch with the felt/fibre/leather = and a felt 'dot' for the spring...so you have about $3.50 in materials per = note plus the labor to pull, re-cover, and replace the pouchboards PLUS the = cosst of rebuilding the Primary action (about $850 for a 61-note primary).   So you save the cost of the primary rebuild.   On the other hand...current prices of electro-mechanical note actions run roughly $5.00 per note (more or less depending on the supplier, the pallet =   size, coil resistance etc.) PLUS the cost of a solid-state relay = system...so the savings might be in the >next releathering< as far as the note actions =   but the cost of a relay to drive the note actions will almost certainly = drive the real cost of the job beyond that of a straight re-leathering. The advantage, as already pointed out is in the ability to CAREFULLY = unify/borrow stops that the pitman action would not allow (without duplexing).   IF you were dealing with Moller DUPLEX pitman chests, I would have NO hesitaiton to go the electro-mechanical route because of the future = problem of having the shifter channels oval-out and then the shifters start to = hang, and THAT is a big problem because re-boring the shifter channeling is = almost never successful...the only way to do that correctly is to dis-member the entire chest so you can re-drill the sideways channeling in the dividing walls where the shifters operate. this also necessitates having to make = new shifters (sometimes) which is labor-and-time-intensive, and in the long = haul, not worth the work. (IMHO)   just some thoughts...   Rick M Staunton VA  
(back) Subject: Re: Surf City Moller - Day One of Removal (X-posted) From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:58:54 -0600   Go ahead an gloat at bit Bud, it's good for the soul. William D. "Bill" Babcock WDBabcock@msn.com wbabcock@lansing.lib.il.us My goal is to be the person my dog thinks I am. ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "+mailing list, ANGLICAN-MUSIC" <anglican-music@list.stsams.org>; "organchat" <organchat@egroups.com>; "pipechat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: Surf City Moller - Day One of Removal (X-posted)     > Y'all are just gonna have to put up with me for awhile, at LEAST until > the thing is safely locked away in storage (grin). Today I *finally* got > excited (grin). > > I got to spend about an hour in quiet with the organ before they began > the removal this morning, so I could REALLY tell what was what .... every > other time I'd been there, workmen had been banging around finishing > gutting the church. > > There ARE a couple of odd things ... nothing unfixable ... it sounds > like at some point the 8 principal and 4 octave in the Great were > switched ... the 4 octave is MUCH wider and "hootier" than the 8 > principal; ditto the 8 and 4 flutes in the Swell. If that IS the case, > simple enough ... switch 'em back (grin). > > After they removed the gold "barbeque grill" screen in front of the > chamber (I mean ... pu-LEEZE ... gold-spray-painted metal diamond mesh > for a chamber screen in NEWPORT BEACH??!! what WERE they thinking?), I > could see that the shutters are on individual pneumatics, and not all of > them were opening, so that accounts for the enclosed Great flute being > SO much softer than the exposed pipework. It's a Hohl Flute; it SHOULD > be able to hohl its own (ducking). > > They got the exposed Great pipes and the Pedal pipes out before I got so > cold and so tired I had to come home ... I was sitting there shivering, > wrapping in a MOVER'S blanket (grin); Burgie finally dragged me out of > there. The rose window is out; they didn't cover it like they said they > would, and St. James is right on the water, so the church was like a > wind tunnel. The pipe chamber is sheltered; the console is draped in > plastic; I hope we don't have another storm this weekend. > > From what I could see, the wood and the workmanship is excellent ... no > visible water damage (I wasn't able to climb into the chamber itself, > but Frank said he didn't see any), BIG scales (grin). It *will* require > a complete releathering, but we already budgeted for that. > > Frank Kieran is nothing if not painstaking and methodical ... everything > was cleaned as it came out, diagrammed AND video-taped, screw lengths > marked, pipes wrapped and cushioned, etc. etc. etc. > > THEN, in an AMAZING phone call from the Rector tonight, I was told to > prepare a budget for what *I* want done in the way of improvements and > additions. Heavenly Sunshine! (grin). I'll be good ... all I want is an > Oboe and a celeste rank in the Swell, a Clarinet and maybe the Unda > maris rank in the Great, and the 16' octave of the Trompette in the > Pedal. > > To be continued ... > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >        
(back) Subject: Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted) From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:00:43 EST   Bud: When "direct electrifying" any electro pneumatic action the pipework must = be completely revoiced. I make no exception in this. The dynamics at work = with the two actions are completely and radically different. I'm sure that you know this but for the benefit of other list members, when an organ man = offers to convert an action, revoicing must occur as a matter of course. This can =   account for the apparent high cost. I would go into detail but I am = fatigued from revoicing a 6 rank mixture to D.E. action. What? Huh? Somebody answer =   the phone.   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: Moller Extraction - Day Two (X-posted) From: "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:03:32 -0800 (PST)   My experience over the last few months in my project is that the Peterson equipment, especially gutting the Klann console and putting in all new insides, key contacts, coupler actions, etc. Is where the money is.   Current 13 ranks on EP unit chests either Durst or Organ Supply and the leather is fine. We are building a new 4 rank DE chest and are having to spend a little extra on higher quality magnets, but the cost of the tonal additions including the chest, pipes (some recycled, of course,) voicing, etc. is nowhere near the cost of the electonic components.   I started out thinking that we should concentrate on the tonal stuff first. Thankfully, I think it is all going to happen over the course of this year, but if I had a choice of picking tonal additions or electrical rebuilding but not both, I'd pick the electrical.   I voted for changing to DE for Buds situation because the instrument is small and a new Peterson system and unit chests would allow for prepping for future additions as well as some unification now. There is no cantus 4' stop in the pedal, etc. There is a lot that could be done with just a very few minor additions and a new relay.   On the other hand, you could releather the chests as they are, swap some things around, and build a new unit chest for things that you want to duplex or extend.   Randy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Moller Revoicing From: "randy terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 20:13:09 -0800 (PST)   I would expect that the instrument would need tonal regulation/revoicing anyway, for its new home.   In 20 years as a church organist, I have only had one church where I did not have the organ revoiced. There was one set of metal gedackts I did not care for but the integrity was there.   The rest of the time it has been small Moller series organs or Wicks from the 70's. Revoicing is an intense process and it takes skill. I am amazed watching these transformations. But it is not extremely expensive unless you have a *name* taht allows you to charge a lot.   My present church has a 1972 Swain & Kates, which I am happy to say will not need a lot of revoicing, but once we get the new swell Principal we will regulate everything to that rank.   I have been through a releathering project and it was heck. Take everything out and find a safe place to store it, turn the chests upside down, etc. I'd vote for a DE conversion any day, except not those KA vertical action pallets - they were always getting dirty and ciphered on the organ above that I didn't see a need to make tonal changes to. Randy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Trouble Hearing a Theatre Organ while Playing It From: "Len Beyersdorfer, MARATHON Digital Publishing" <LenB@MDigital.com> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 04:50:46 +0500   Hi -   I recently tried playing a Wurlitzer pipe organ in a large theatre. When = I played it, I could hardly sense/hear it. I realize that the relative locations of the chambers and the console coupled with the ultra sound absorbent venue accounts for this. The problem is that I had a tough time =   "feeling" what I was trying to play/improvise.   What do you think about the following idea to solve my problem: Install microphones (1 single-stereo or pair depending on placement) on the loge rail (might be too long of a delay) or hanging in front of the chambers = and hook them through a mixer/whatever (like a little 4-track cassette deck I have) and use earphones. Of course, this could also be used for "cheap" recording for critique.   Thanks!   Len