PipeChat Digest #2185 - Sunday, July 1, 2001
 
Allen Renaissance
  by "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Allen Renaissance
  by "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Allen Renaissance
  by "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com>
digital bellows
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Allen Renaissance
  by "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com>
Lemmens / van Oosten CD
  by "William T. Van Pelt III" <wvanpelt@erols.com>
Dan's Errors
  by "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com>
Parts Availability.
  by "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com>
Plainsong for a wedding
  by "Stephen Barker" <steve@ststephenscanterbury.freeserve.co.uk>
Re: Parts Availability.
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Dan's Errors
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Dan's Errors
  by "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com>
RE: Dan's Errors
  by "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com>
Re: Plainsong for a wedding
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Allen Renaissance From: "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 08:40:47 -0400   > Yeah, but how long do they last?   An excellent "yeah,but". We all need to pay attention to the "yeah,buts."   Flip answer: we don't know, since no one has ever worn one out.   Straight answer: A bit more complicated, since no one has ever worn one = out, but we could begin with the manufacturer's warranty which is ten years. We should also note that Allen has guaranteed to keep parts available in perpetuity for every instrument they have ever built; no other = manufacturer has ever made such a promise. It's also of interest to note that the = details of construction reflect a serious concern for the longevity of the instrument. Take, for example, keying switches--Allen was a pioneer in the use of sealed switches and remains, so far as I know, the only major = builder of digital instruments to utilize them.   But things are bound to go wrong in any instrument, given sufficient time, (even in those built of real pipes) and another "yeah,but" ought to be: "Yeah, but what happens when something DOES go awry?"   With so few moving parts to wear out, our primary (and much less = worrisome) concern will likely be actual component failure. Historically, component failure in Allen digital instruments has been admirably low, something = that most churches would simply not need to worry about: they are far more = likely going to arrive on a cold Sunday morning and find themselves without heat than without a working organ.   But if something on one of those circuit boards should go belly up, the beauty of the system is that the technician does not have to be able to diagnose which of the bazillions of tiny little resistors, capacitors or transistors failed, he needs only pop out the non-functioning board and substitute a working one from his kit. The sick board is shipped back to = the factory for diagnosis, treatment and recovery, and the organ is playing again, usually within minutes of the technician's arrival.   Thanks for the "yeah,but"; it helps clarify the comparison.   Dan Gawthrop    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 08:49:35 -0400   who's to say that Rodgers can't provide parts for all their instruments? = Our Rodgers representative said there's parts for every Rodgers ever built, no matter how old the organ is. If there's a problem, it is repairable.   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 21:26:09 +0800   How can you date a good electronic organ? I have seen radio sets still working after 70 years. I recently saw a Compton electronic which had failed after nearly 50 years. The organ was still OK. It was the valve type amplifier which had conked out. Transistorised gear is much long lived than valve. The claim by some that electronic gear fails after x number of years is nonsense, unless you put a figure in the 50+ years. Bob E. PS my hobby is in the field of elecronics (not e-organs)   Dan Gawthrop wrote: > > > Yeah, but how long do they last? > >    
(back) Subject: Allen Renaissance From: "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:43:41 -0400   > who's to say that Rodgers can't provide parts for all > their instruments? Our Rodgers representative said there's > parts for every Rodgers ever built, no matter how old the > organ is.   If this is so, can you think of any reason why they wouldn't be willing to say so publicly? Indeed, it would be something of a sales feature if it = were true.   But Allen remains the only manufacturer of digital instruments to have _publicly_ _committed_ to a policy of making parts available for every instrument they have ever built. This is not just idle talk from local dealers, this is official, written company policy from the largest and oldest firm in the field.   Dan Gawthrop    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 09:47:01 -0400   publicly meaning what? It's not like any of these companies have TV commercials airing, or anything like that. If you were to ask any of the representatives, they'll tell you.   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:06:44 EDT   While the Renaissance models have some proprietary chips, parts from the = Age of Enlightenment models, such as the AOE-419 can be used to upgrade older instruments, such as the Dark Ages DA-311. If you have an older = instrument from the Bronze Age series, like the BA-100, you probably cannot get tubes =   for it, but some of the IA-200 stuff tubes from the short-lived Iron Age series might fit.   The lower-end version of the Industrial Revolution series, called the Dickensian Squalor, was always fraught with problems.   Nothing from the Inquisition will fit into the Age of Reason.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck trying to build solid-state bellows small enough to fit on the head of a pin...  
(back) Subject: Allen Renaissance From: "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:40:57 -0400   >If you were to ask any of the >representatives, they'll tell you.   And it would mean nothing since the representatives do not set policy for the manufacturer. My earlier statement is still accurate: Allen remains = the only manufacturer of digital instruments to have _publicly_ _committed_ to = a policy of making parts available for every instrument they have ever = built. This is not just idle talk from local dealers, this is official, written company policy from the largest and oldest firm in the field.   Dan Gawthrop    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:44:48 -0400   oh well, live and learn.   I don't lean towards any particular company. I've played them all, and they're all great organs!   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 10:49:56 -0400     Sebastian Matthaus Gluck writes:   "If you have an older instrument from the Bronze Age series, like the BA-100, you probably cannot get tubes for it,"   Indeed, these tubes have become increasingly rare, but you should see some of the tubes being used in non-digital instruments even today! No = filaments! Wind blown!   The attempts of these air powered tube organs to sound like real digital instruments is a touching tribute to the unparalleled musicality and = highly desirable (and difficult to imitate) sounds of a real digital organ! = Accept no substitutes! :-)     Dan Gawthrop    
(back) Subject: digital bellows From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:06:03 -0700   In the sermons of St. Digiwidgitus of Macungie, we read that twelve = digital bellows can indeed be comfortably accommodated on the head of a pin; there = is, however, some theological speculation as to which of the Twelve Choirs of = Angels is responsible for which bellows, and whether or not this includes the high-pressure bellows for the Solo Tuba.   Cheers,   Raymondus-juxta-Oceana-Pacifica    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:18:31 -0400   Dear Mr. Tuba Tonal Director, Please proceed very carefully. I am afraid you are beginning to grow = one of those marvelous, yet tumorous senses of humor and it may begin to = interfere with your carefully cultivated image of cerebral wisdom. Perhaps you got hold = of some of Dessert Bob's medication by mistake. Actually, never mind. I think I like the new Tuba. You must have moved = it up to 20" wind. :-) No disrespectedly Mike TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > While the Renaissance models have some proprietary chips, parts from the = Age > of Enlightenment models, such as the AOE-419 can be used to upgrade = older > instruments, such as the Dark Ages DA-311. If you have an older = instrument > from the Bronze Age series, like the BA-100, you probably cannot get = tubes > for it, but some of the IA-200 stuff tubes from the short-lived Iron Age > series might fit. > > The lower-end version of the Industrial Revolution series, called the > Dickensian Squalor, was always fraught with problems. > > Nothing from the Inquisition will fit into the Age of Reason. > > Sebastian Matthaus Gluck > trying to build solid-state bellows small enough to fit on the head of a > pin... > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:22:49 -0400   Oh my Dan, you are suffering from the same tumor as S.M.G. You gentlemen = all need professional help methinks. :-) Mike   Dan Gawthrop wrote:   > Sebastian Matthaus Gluck writes: > > "If you have an older instrument from the Bronze Age series, > like the BA-100, you probably cannot get tubes for it," > > Indeed, these tubes have become increasingly rare, but you should see = some > of the tubes being used in non-digital instruments even today! No = filaments! > Wind blown! > > The attempts of these air powered tube organs to sound like real digital > instruments is a touching tribute to the unparalleled musicality and = highly > desirable (and difficult to imitate) sounds of a real digital organ! = Accept > no substitutes! :-) > > Dan Gawthrop > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Renaissance From: "Blaine Ricketts" <blaineri@home.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:23:51 -0700   Dan Gawthrop wrote: > > > who's to say that Rodgers can't provide parts for all > > their instruments? Our Rodgers representative said there's > > parts for every Rodgers ever built, no matter how old the > > organ is. >   To my knowledge, there are no Rodgers MIDI adapters being stocked for organs built between roughly 1985 & 1991 when the company went digital. There are no rectangular power switches available for these models so you have to uses a more expensive adapter kit to install a different power switch.   There are no antiphonal adapters available for any analog organ built that did not have one built as standard equipment.   There are numerous models where original memory chips are not available. Some of these have adapter circuits that make them work with newer chips, at a much higher price.   The replacement for music rack brackets, now wearing out after years of people pulling them down with out lifting up first, now cost about four times what they used to. Someting like $130.00 dealer cost.   If anyone knows of other problems, let I'd like to know.   Blaine Ricketts  
(back) Subject: Lemmens / van Oosten CD From: "William T. Van Pelt III" <wvanpelt@erols.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 11:39:27 -0400   On a new MDG CD described on the opening page of the OHS Catalog http://www.ohscatalog.org, all three of the organ sonatas by Jacques-Nicolas Lemmens and other organ works by him are played by Ben van Oosten on the 3-manual organ built 1871-74 by the Belgian, Pierre Schyven, for the largest neo-gothic church in Belgium. The organ was rebuilt by Salomon Van Bever in 1912, retaining almost all of the Schyven pipes and mechanism, and was restored almost entirely to the 1912 state in 1978.   Lemmens, the teacher of Guilmant and Widor, united the classically-based Germanic style with Romantic expressiveness. Several movements of the sonatas and a few of the other works are exciting exploitations of Grand Choeur registrations, including a Marche Pontificale, two Fanfares, and a Finale.   Further discussion of Lemmens' pivotal role in the evolution of French organ music is contained in the excellent CD booklet (in English, German, and French). The subject is a major component of two books (also in the OHS Catalog and the web store), "Organs and Organ Playing in 19th-Century France and Belgium" by Orpha Ochse and "Cavaill=E9-Coll and the French Romantic Tradition" by Fenner Douglass.   Bill  
(back) Subject: Dan's Errors From: "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 18:23:00 -0000   "...remains the only manufacturer of digital instruments to have = _publicly_ _committed_ to a policy of making parts available for every instrument = they have ever built."   Prove it, Dan. Let's see this document you are talking about. Scan it, = put it on the web if it really exists. The official document. Pull out your warranty from Allen and scan it so we can read these words.   "This is not just idle talk from local dealers, this is official, written company policy from the largest and oldest firm in the field".   Not.   Allen is by far #2 in the church organ building industry according to = Music Trades. Hammond is by far the oldest firm in the field, and still offers church organs. (1928 compared to 1937)   Hammond organs are outlasting Allens in the field as well even with the original company closing years ago and no factory parts availability or warranty or any 'parts forever statement' existing.   Dan, no one from the Allen Factory staff has ever posted to this list or PIPORG. Why is that? Factory personnel from every other manufacturer = openly share ideas and comments on this list. But not Allen. Why is that?     RH _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Parts Availability. From: "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 18:42:59 -0000   Allen first ran into problems concerning parts about ten years ago when = the original chips from Rockwell for the computer combination action board = were no longer available.   Allen did not make new chips, rather Allen designed a new board to replace =   that entire assembly.   Allen does not guarantee 'parts' availability, since the parts they use = come from all over the world, especially the computer chips that are the heart = of the organ, but rather offers to provide replacement boards and parts to = keep old organs running...as does Rodgers.   According to industry sources, these two companies are about equal in customer service and support, depending more on the local dealer than the manufacturer itself.   It is a bit of evil fun to hear a company rep from any company boast that their organ is American-built, Dutch-built, German-built, relying on nationalism...when the consumer views the boards and sees Malayasia, Nicaragua, Korea on the boards on the chips that make the sounds...   For many years Allen boasted about solid-wood only consoles...and the then-VP pointed out that the pedalboard reed contacts are housed in specially imported Norwegian plywood...in a 'solid-wood, American built' console.   Ah, salesmanship.   rh   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Plainsong for a wedding From: "Stephen Barker" <steve@ststephenscanterbury.freeserve.co.uk> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 20:24:43 +0100   Dear list,   I hope that someone might be able to help me... A bride who is getting married in the church where I am organist has asked to walk down the aisle to the choir singing some plainsong. I don't have any ideas, apart from maybe a psalm. Does anyone have a plainsong introit for a nuptual mass or something similar, or maybe someone has another suggestion?   Thanks in advance,   Steve Barker,   Organist and Choirmaster St Stephen's Church Canterbury, UK ETO Canterbury RSCM    
(back) Subject: Re: Parts Availability. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:51:05 -0400   there's a 603-D here in Montreal, and the left computer konked out. The technician took the computer board out, and put a whole new one in right there. The organ was up and running in less than 5 minutes. Later he told = me that they don't repair the chip, but put a whole new board in, and then = send the defective board back to the company. From there, I don't know what = they do with it. Also, he replaced 4 burned-out bulbs on the card reader. He = said those tiny bulbs are available at Radio Shack!!!   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: Dan's Errors From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 15:58:30 EDT   Robert:   Not to take sides, but you have your dates a little wrong. The Hammond = organ was patented in 1934 and made its debut in 1935. Contrary to what you say, =   the Hammond Organ Co. bit the dust many years ago. They are not in = business any more. However, Suzuki bought the name and now manufactures "Hammond" organs in Japan. These are not really the Hammonds we all knew and loved = (or hated) and have no similarity at all to the original Hammond (except for = the drawbars).   On the other hand, the first Allen organ made its debut in 1939. The = company is still going strong. They have built more organs than any existing = builder and have outlasted all of them.   Tom  
(back) Subject: Dan's Errors From: "Robert Hullem" <rhullem@hotmail.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 20:22:00 -0000   'Not to take sides, but you have your dates a little wrong.'   Beauty in the B traces its invention back to 1928.   'On the other hand, the first Allen organ made its debut in 1939. The company is still going strong. They have built more organs than any = existing builder and have outlasted all of them.'   When did Rodgers, Ahlborn-Gallanti, Johannus, Eminent, Content, Viscount, Walker, Copeman Hart go out of business?   It is also interesting that Allen now markets 'Moller organs'. How many = of the former staff of Moller are now employed at Allen? How many of the = pipe voicers, pipe-builders, the people that brought with them the knowledge of =   how to build pipe organs are working at Allen now?   Allen organs built since 1971 have had a good record of service. Unfortunately, Allen dealers are known to offer as little as $1,200 to $2,000 for these organs on trade when churches want to upgrade, organs = that originally cost $12,000 to $22,000. This lack of residual value when = quoted by the dealer drives purchasers away from the product. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: RE: Dan's Errors From: "Dan Gawthrop" <Gawthrop@dunstanhouse.com> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 16:57:48 -0400   Gosh, we'd been having this fairly civil discussion about Allen organs = when suddenly someone popped up with a new (and much less interesting) topic. I suppose I should be flattered to get this much attention from Mr. Hullem, who doubtless could fill volumes with the details of my errors, but somehow...   It has been my experience that when someone feels the need to move from civil discussion to an ad hominem attack it's because they're loosing the debate and are feeling desperate. I don't generally choose to participate = in exchanges with folks whose utter loss of any pretense of openmindedness = has been made so stunningly clear by their own statements--it's like = fertilizing a rock garden.   Be that as it may, someone else reading may care, so I'll point out one or two further items.   > Prove it, Dan. Let's see this document you are > talking about. Scan it, put it on the web if it > really exists.   (The reference here is to Allen's policy of maintaining available parts = for all models). It's on their website, Bob. You'll be able to find it easily enough.   > Allen is by far #2 in the church organ building industry > according to Music Trades.   You've misquoted them, Bob. Music Trades shows the GROSS income for the companies they list. They don't show what percentage of that income was derived from church organs, hence, "Allen is by far #2 in the church organ building industry," is NOT a statement which can be supported by anything = in Music Trades. Hammond surely sells more organs into homes, bars and ballparks than many competitors, Allen included, but when we're talking specifically about church organs the picture changes quite dramatically.   Tom has already dealt with your confused picture of the history of the = (now defunct) Hammond Co.   > Hammond organs are outlasting Allens in the field as well even with the > original company closing years ago and no factory parts availability or > warranty or any 'parts forever statement' existing.   Prove it, Bob. Let's see your evidence for this unlikely assertion. Scan = it and post it right here, if it exists.   > Dan, no one from the Allen Factory staff has ever posted > to this list or PIPORG. Why is that?   Gosh, I haven't a clue. Does it matter? Do you suspect a conspiracy?   > Allen first ran into problems concerning parts about > ten years ago when the original chips from Rockwell > for the computer combination action board were > no longer available.   > Allen did not make new chips, rather Allen designed > a new board to replace that entire assembly.   HAH HAH! I just LOVE this! Allen, at no cost to any customer, designs an upgraded and improved assembly and offers it UNDER WARRANTY to customers whose original boards happen to fail, and Mr. Hullem wants to count that AGAINST them! Hello? Get a CLUE!   > Allen does not guarantee 'parts' availability, since > the parts they use come from all over the world, > especially the computer chips that are the heart of > the organ, but rather offers to provide replacement > boards and parts to keep old organs running...   Yes? And your point is? As with the specious red herring above, I'm quite certain that the folks = who actually own these instruments don't give a rat's hindquarter whether you call them "parts" or "chips" or "circuit boards" or "doozywidgets"--fact = is, if Allen can fix it then their promise is kept. Anal yammerings over the terminology simply don't matter. Nada. Zip. Zilch.   > According to industry sources, these two companies > are about equal in customer service and support, > depending more on the local dealer than the > manufacturer itself.   Sounds an awful lot like pipe organ maintenance, dunnit?   > When did Rodgers, Ahlborn-Gallanti, Johannus, Eminent, > Content, Viscount, Walker, Copeman Hart go out of business?   You need to go back to your Music Trades, Bob. I'm sure those guys are all doing their best, but in the field of church organs Allen still has = outsold them all. And not surprising, really: How many organs can Bob Walker personally finish in a year's time, eight? Maybe ten? And Copeman Hart's entire output to this country, last I heard, was a grand total of TWO instruments. I think they have a few more in England (and very nice = sounding ones too, from the recordings I've heard).   > It is also interesting that Allen now markets 'Moller organs'. > How many of the former staff of Moller are now employed at Allen? > How many of the pipe voicers, pipe-builders, the people that > brought with them the knowledge of how to build pipe organs > are working at Allen now?   Uh, you're just a little confused there, Bob. Allen does not build pipe organs. They do, however, market custom solutions in which some Allen digital sounds are combined with either an existing pipe organ or with new pipework from a builder of the customer's choice. These instruments are marketed under the Moller name in order to differentiate them from the purely digital instruments which are Allen's primary focus.   Careful! Any more like that and we're going to have to rename this thread "Bob's Errors"...and just when I was basking in all that attention, too!   Best,   Dan "The Errordite" Gawthrop    
(back) Subject: Re: Plainsong for a wedding From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 14:08:38 -0700   Hi, Stephen!   I have the plainsong Propers for the Nuptial Mass in English (from Dr. Palmer's "Plainchant Gradual") ... Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Tract, Offertory, Communion ... but they're in Gregorian notation. Is that OK? If not, if there's no hurry, I can transcribe them for you. Do you have a = fax? If not, I can probably scan them in and attach them to an e-mail.   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach   Stephen Barker wrote:   > Dear list, > > I hope that someone might be able to help me... A bride who is getting > married in the church where I am organist has asked to walk down the = aisle > to the choir singing some plainsong. I don't have any ideas, apart from > maybe a psalm. Does anyone have a plainsong introit for a nuptual mass = or > something similar, or maybe someone has another suggestion? > > Thanks in advance, > > Steve Barker, > > Organist and Choirmaster > St Stephen's Church Canterbury, UK > ETO Canterbury RSCM > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org