PipeChat Digest #2207 - Saturday, July 7, 2001
 
Re: well, I guess it WON'T go away (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
West Point, organ console
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
West Point, spec.
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: West Point, spec.
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: West Point, spec.
  by "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Contempt for Knowledge
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Contempt for Knowledge
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: A "Fuller" key
  by "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net>
re: A Second Life for Historic Pipe Organs: today's NY Times article (RSV
  by "Pat Maimone" <patmai@juno.com>
Re: stoplists and the literature
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: Carnegie Hall Rodgers
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: stoplists and the literature
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: 'BLACK BEAUTY' TOURING ORGAN
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: well, I guess it WON'T go away (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 09:32:41 -0700       Jim wrote:   > So let me see, Bud, those 100-200 people cannot enjoy a big organ sound = at > an affordable price > > Jim H >   Not at all, Jim ... scaling and voicing is everything; that's the = discussion I've been having with the builders we're considering to do our rebuild ... = 20 stops can be made to sound like anything from a chamber organ to a heroic romantic instrument in the grand style, which takes me back to the design = of English cathedral organs ... for all their economy of design and = relatively small number of stops, they produce a heroic sound because of placement, voicing, scaling and acoustics.   Sheer NUMBERS of stops doesn't necessarily equate with volume ... for instance, it's been proven that it takes TEN ranks of trumpets to DOUBLE = the volume of ONE trumpet rank, if they're of identical scaling and voicing.   20 stops in our small room (seats 150 plus the choir loft) will have to be handled VERY carefully in order to produce a sound that is warm and = romantic without being overpowering.   To put an electronic instrument of 40-50-60 or more stops in the same room would mean having to muzzle it to the point that it would no longer sound = much like a pipe organ of the same size. The fact that you can DO it doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: West Point, organ console From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:39:13 -0400   if anyone wants to take a look at this monster, go to the following URL. = You could very easily break your neck trying to turn around to see all the stops...........     http://www.arioso.com/artists/rbertero/Organs/West%20Point/West%20Point,%20= o rgan.htm    
(back) Subject: West Point, spec. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:42:31 -0400   ......and for those of you who REALLY wanna laugh, check out the stops on this thing!!!!     http://www.arioso.com/artists/rbertero/Organs/West%20Point/West%20Point,%20= o rgan%20spec..htm    
(back) Subject: Re: West Point, spec. From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 12:45:06 -0400   I must add that my last 2 posts contained URL's that were too long for the width of my e-mail, so please don't forget too add the stuff on the 2nd = line if you want the link to work......   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: West Point, spec. From: "Gary Black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 11:42:24 -0500   HI Carlo, These links are not working for some reason. Thanks, Gary ----- Original Message ----- From: Carlo Pietroniro <organist@total.net> To: Pipe Chat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: West Point, spec.     > .....and for those of you who REALLY wanna laugh, check out the stops on > this thing!!!! > > > http://www.arioso.com/artists/rbertero/Organs/West%20Point/West%20Point ,%20o > rgan%20spec..htm > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Contempt for Knowledge From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:50:53 EDT   The contempt for knowledge and education in the organ community is the powerful engine of its self-destruction. Branding somebody "smug" or a "snob" for wanting the culture of the organ to survive by doing things = RIGHT accellerates the process of annihilating our beloved instrument.   I admire Virgil Fox for his technique, what he did to bring the organ = to young people, and even what he did to bring organ music, via pipeless simulation, to venues where there was no organ. Do I feverishly elevate = him to cult status, traveling thousands of miles to see his cape and shoes? = No. Do I revere him as perfect and unchallengable? No.   That does NOT diminish my respect for his abilities. Do I think he was = a good designer of organ specifications? No, not based upon the Carnegie = Hall organ, which boasts a stoplist FAR less literature-friendly than many three-manual instruments in the 50-stop range being built by the best builders today. If one is going to throw so much money at a simulated fantasy, at least do it right. To claim that it is a "world-class" = (WHATEVER the HECK that means) concert organ, yet lock out the ability to play enormously important bodies of the literature because the designer failed = to open a book or two or learn anything about the music it was supposed to = play is a very damaging thing.   So any intellectual analysis of the tonal design, based upon the literature it is supposed to play, and the instruments for which that literature was written, is secondary to a fact established LAST week on = this list: It does NOT matter if it is good, it just has to be big and flashy. = We don't care what it sounds like, we don't care about the composer's = intent, and we don't really care that the rest of the musical world looks down = upon us with condescension.   So obviously, any scholarly analysis of the problems inherent in this monstrous design is not necessary, because it is apparently more desirable = to idolize somebody and NOT learn anything, repeating these mistakes in the future, so that we can go further down the road of organ oblivion.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck Commission of "Smugness" NYC    
(back) Subject: Re: Contempt for Knowledge From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 15:01:39 -0400   seeing the specs for the Carnegie Hall Rodgers opens the door for anyone = to comment on it. BUT, if no one ever saw the specs, and only relied on it's sound, and the = way Virgil used the organ, what would the comments be like. I'm more than sure, that if = our only guide were our ears, we would all say it sounded great...........for it's = time!!! Now with all the digital advancements, we can look back on it and snicker. When it was = new, no one in their right mind could say it wasn't a fabulous organ.   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: A "Fuller" key From: "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:41:45 -0500   Jackson R. Williams II writes:   >This works IN THEORY, but unfortunately not in >practice. Even with equal temperament, there are >slight variations because of several factors including >acoustics (not of the room, but of physical >properties).   Yes, it's true that there are slight variations in how equal temperament = is tuned, because every tuner and every organ is different. However, these small errors are a) small, and b) errors, which will be different in every instrument. If I'm tuning an organ in ET and err slightly, one key may sound slightly better than another, but who's to say that I'll make this same error in every organ I tune? that every tuner will make this same error in every organ they tune? that listeners hearing all of these equally-improperly tuned organs will be able to detect a theoretically similar character in certain keys? that this theoretically similar character of certain keys will accord with the characters composers invested in their pieces?   >When you tune all fifths perfectly, >there will still be intervals whose colors will differ >from key to key because of overtone lineup.   I'm assuming you mean "When you tune all the fifths *perfectly the same*", because all the fifths in equal temperament are not perfect (pure), but slightly narrow.   >I understand what you >mean, John, it is written that way in theoretical> >books. But what actually happens in equal temperement >is slightly different. There really is no absolute >equal temperament.   See above.   >And a good composer does choose >his keys with care DUE TO COLOR.   If you think that I'm arguing that keys have no color, I've not made = myself clear. I certainly perceive that they do. But I believe we ascribe colors to different keys because we associate certain keys with music traditionally and historically written for that key. However, no one has admitted that this might be a factor; most have tried to show that the different keys of (theoretically perfect) equal temperament are somehow capable of possessing different characters. I would be ever so grateful if someone would explain the actual physics of this, rather than vaguely asserting that it's so. There must be a doctoral dissertation on this subject, but I've not found it yet.   John A. Panning Lake City, Iowa      
(back) Subject: re: A Second Life for Historic Pipe Organs: today's NY Times article (RSV; X-post) From: "Pat Maimone" <patmai@juno.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 16:31:49 -0400   Dear Pipechatters,   Mea culpa.. mea maxima culpa... The first name of Mr. Bishop is John, as I have now read in the marvelous OHS 2001 Convention booklet which was so kindly sent to me (and reread in the article from the NY Times.) Juno was off-line for quite a while today, so I was unable to post the correction until now..   >>A Second Life for Historic Pipe Organs >By ROBIN POGREBIN >Organ Clearinghouse, a group devoted to perserving historic pipe >organs, rescued an organ built in 1885 from a Brooklyn church that >will soon be torn down.   >http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/07/arts/07ORGA.html?ex=3D995517157&ei=3D1&e= n=3D 2 fc4546d13e815d1   Vaughn Watson, Dean of the Suffolk, LI, chapter of the AGO, is mentioned as the one who alerted _John_ Bishop of the OCH. Vaughn is a former member of the Central Hudson Valley AGO chapter. He was present at the AGO's Region II convention in Binghamton, NY, June 24-27.   Pat Maimone Post Chapel III/57 hybrid West Point, NY patmai@juno.com   ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Re: stoplists and the literature From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 14:04:41 -0400       On Sat, 7 Jul 2001 10:20:50 -0400 "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> writes: > Bud....... > > if you really wanna talk about an organ with TOO many stops, just > think > about the Moller in the cadet chapel at West Point. Now there's an > organ > with so many stops, it's beyond silly!!! > > c.p. > Don't knock it 'til you've PLAYED it !     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY       ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.  
(back) Subject: Re: Carnegie Hall Rodgers From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 17:49:40 EDT     --part1_11f.15710be.2878ddf4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/7/01 1:28:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = Mozart609@aol.com writes:     >   I have also heard this. Is it true? Why? Are their manuals too = heavy to lift that high? It is my understanding that First Baptist = Jacksonville wanted a 5-manual Rodgers and they said "we can't do it." So FB with = with an Allen, but prepared the fifth manual! Duh..... why? It's really entertaining to see to what lengths some companies will go to in order to appear "real". ;-)   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_11f.15710be.2878ddf4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 7/7/01 1:28:22 AM Eastern = Daylight Time, Mozart609@aol.com <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#800040" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0"><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE = style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><B>Is it true that Rodgers does not have the Tech. = to build a 5 manual organ? </BLOCKQUOTE></B> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>I have also heard this. &nbsp;&nbsp;Is it true? &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Why? = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Are their manuals too heavy <BR>to lift that high? &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is my understanding that First = Baptist Jacksonville <BR>wanted a 5-manual Rodgers and they said "we can't do it." = &nbsp;&nbsp;So FB with with <BR>an Allen, but prepared the fifth manual! &nbsp;&nbsp;Duh..... why? = &nbsp;&nbsp;It's really <BR>entertaining to see to what lengths some companies will go to in order = to <BR>appear "real". <BR>;-) <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_11f.15710be.2878ddf4_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: stoplists and the literature From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:31:25 EDT     --part1_8b.8fc441d.2878e7bd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Bud wrote:   <<I feel like a broken record here, but if you ARE going to design an eclectic "American Classic" organ (pipe OR digital), then GO TO THE ORGAN LITERATURE, and see what you can REASONABLY encompass in one instrument without violating good taste or sound organ-building practice. (snip) Three independent principal choruses plus mixture: Great, Positive and Pedal. (snip) The BIGGEST omission I see in most large digital AND pipe organs as far as playing French baroque music is the lack of the all-important Nasard, Tierce AND Cornet in EVERY division, and the Gros Nasard and Gros Tierce on the Great Organ. (snip) French romantic music requires a full complement of CHORUS reeds at 16-8-4 in EVERY manual division ... (snip) .... and the "four fonds" ... (snip) at LEAST four 8' stops (principal, open/harmonic/double flute, string, stopped flute) in every division,>>   My question here is if the concept of the American Classic organ = necessarily requires it to have the stops necessary to play "all" of the literature, = or rather is supposed to be a composit instrument that can do justice to all = of the literature by combining the resources of the complete instrument, = sharing a 16 reed among all divisions, combining the swell and choir/positive to = make a French positif, etc. I have seldom seen an American Classic = instrument that was as complete as Bud suggests (although it would be nice). Most American Classic instruments I've seen, especially A-S, followed = Harrison's concept of no Great reeds, full principal chorus on the Great only, Swell chorus consisting of 4' and Mixture, and Choir/Positiv of 2' and possibly = a mixture. Additionally, most reeds were in the Swell, with only a = Krummhorn on the Positiv. The Pedal division was basically a Principal 16 8 unit, =   Bourdon 16 - 8 unit, a 4' principal, a mixture, and a 16 reed. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to have been the accepted design = for an American Classic instrument which would "play all the literature," even =   following this pattern to fairly large instruments.   This is the American Classic concept that I grew up around. Electronic manufacturers followed this concept, as well, even without the = restrictions of space.           Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_8b.8fc441d.2878e7bd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Bud wrote: <BR> <BR>&lt;&lt;I feel like a broken record here, but if you ARE going to = design an <BR>eclectic "American Classic" organ (pipe OR digital), then GO TO THE <BR>ORGAN LITERATURE, and see what you can REASONABLY encompass in one <BR>instrument without violating good taste or sound organ-building <BR>practice. <BR>(snip) <BR>Three independent principal choruses plus mixture: Great, Positive and <BR>Pedal. <BR>(snip) <BR>The BIGGEST omission I see in most large digital AND pipe organs as = far <BR>as playing French baroque music is the lack of the all-important = Nasard, <BR>Tierce AND Cornet in EVERY division, and the Gros Nasard and Gros = Tierce <BR>on the Great Organ. <BR>(snip) <BR>French romantic music requires a full complement of CHORUS reeds at <BR>16-8-4 in EVERY manual division ... <BR>(snip) <BR>... and the "four fonds" ... &nbsp;(snip) at LEAST four 8' stops = (principal, <BR>open/harmonic/double flute, string, stopped flute) in every = division,&gt;&gt; <BR> <BR>My question here is if the concept of the American Classic organ = necessarily <BR>requires it to have the stops necessary to play "all" of the = literature, or <BR>rather is supposed to be a composit instrument that can do justice to = all of <BR>the literature by combining the resources of the complete instrument, sharing <BR>a 16 reed among all divisions, combining the swell and choir/positive = to make <BR>a French positif, etc. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have seldom seen an = American Classic instrument <BR>that was as complete as Bud suggests (although it would be nice). = &nbsp;&nbsp;Most <BR>American Classic instruments I've seen, especially A-S, followed = Harrison's <BR>concept of no Great reeds, full principal chorus on the Great only, = Swell <BR>chorus consisting of 4' and Mixture, and Choir/Positiv of 2' and = possibly a <BR>mixture. &nbsp;&nbsp;Additionally, most reeds were in the Swell, with = only a Krummhorn <BR>on the Positiv. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The Pedal division was basically a = Principal 16 8 unit, <BR>Bourdon 16 - 8 unit, a 4' principal, a mixture, and a 16 reed. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please <BR>correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to have been the accepted = design for <BR>an American Classic instrument which would "play all the literature," = even <BR>following this pattern to fairly large instruments. <BR> <BR>This is the American Classic concept that I grew up around. = &nbsp;&nbsp;Electronic <BR>manufacturers followed this concept, as well, even without the = restrictions <BR>of space. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_8b.8fc441d.2878e7bd_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: 'BLACK BEAUTY' TOURING ORGAN From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 18:36:59 EDT     --part1_64.104ccf01.2878e90b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/7/01 8:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, organdok@safari.net writes:     > For me, the Black Beauty is important because it was the first 'real' = organ > I ever heard.   But Darryl, It wasn't real!!   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_64.104ccf01.2878e90b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 7/7/01 8:20:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>organdok@safari.net writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">For me, the Black = Beauty is important because it was the first 'real' organ <BR>I ever heard. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>But Darryl, It wasn't real!! &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_64.104ccf01.2878e90b_boundary--