PipeChat Digest #2247 - Friday, July 20, 2001
 
Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS!
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS!
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Playing fast and circulation
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS!
  by "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net>
Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article?
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Perils of Pianos in church
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #2244 - 07/19/01
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article?
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Why not?
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS!
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Why not?
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
No more boring organ music!!!!
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
Re: Perils of Pianos in church
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Why not?
  by "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@qwest.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS! From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 02:06:33 -0700 (PDT)     --- "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> wrote: > Do you guys do divorce ceremonies? You really > should consider it for extra > income.   That's a great one, Marika. I laughed out loud! Your letter is definitely the commment of the day!   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS! From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 02:06:48 -0700 (PDT)     --- "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> wrote: > Do you guys do divorce ceremonies? You really > should consider it for extra > income.   That's a great one, Marika. I laughed out loud! Your letter is definitely the commment of the day!   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Playing fast and circulation From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:02:44 EDT     --part1_35.1806abdb.288969d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   To clear matters up, what got me when I read Mr. Wiliams post was that we = all tend to be too judgemental towards each other. Organists, as well as my other field--funeral directors, tend to be quite harsh towards their = peers. If Joyce plays too fast for you, so be it. I don't like Bigg's playing, I =   prefer Virgil's style. To each his or her own. That doesn't make me = right or wrong. I was merely stating an opinion. I find Newman's playing a bit =   too fast for my taste sometimes, but on certain pieces, it's kind of exciting.   Anyway, I've known some people who have had arterial surgery to remove blockages. They have all said at how much better they felt and how much = more enregy they had. I wonder if that's not the reason Mr. Colassco is = playing with more speed. I know first hand that if the blood is not flowing, = you're not going to be doing anything with much speed! LOL Several people I = know who had their carotid arteries cleaned out not only had more energy, but = it even affected their memory, now that the brain had full circulation again. = It's amazing what a little oxygen and blood flow will do.   Monty Bennett   --part1_35.1806abdb.288969d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>To clear matters up, = what got me when I read Mr. Wiliams post was that we all <BR>tend to be too judgemental towards each other. &nbsp;Organists, as = well as my <BR>other field--funeral directors, tend to be quite harsh towards their = peers. &nbsp; <BR>If Joyce plays too fast for you, so be it. &nbsp;I don't like Bigg's = playing, I <BR>prefer Virgil's style. &nbsp;To each his or her own. &nbsp;That = doesn't make me right <BR>or wrong. &nbsp;I was merely stating an opinion. &nbsp;I find Newman's = playing a bit <BR>too fast for my taste sometimes, but on certain pieces, it's kind of <BR>exciting. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>Anyway, I've known some people who have had arterial surgery to remove =   <BR>blockages. &nbsp;They have all said at how much better they felt and = how much more <BR>enregy they had. &nbsp;I wonder if that's not the reason Mr. Colassco = is playing <BR>with more speed. &nbsp;I know first hand that if the blood is not = flowing, you're <BR>not going to be doing anything with much speed! &nbsp;LOL = &nbsp;Several people I know <BR>who had their carotid arteries cleaned out not only had more energy, = but it <BR>even affected their memory, now that the brain had full circulation = again. &nbsp; <BR>It's amazing what a little oxygen and blood flow will do. <BR> <BR>Monty Bennett</FONT></HTML>   --part1_35.1806abdb.288969d4_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS! From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:06:13 -0400   Glad you enjoyed it..... ;)   "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote:   > --- "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" > <marika57@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Do you guys do divorce ceremonies? You really > > should consider it for extra > > income. > > That's a great one, Marika. I laughed out loud! Your > letter is definitely the commment of the day! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ***************************************************** Healthcare references for everyone. "Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com" http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html   Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone. http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html *****************************************************      
(back) Subject: Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article? From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:42:47 -0400   > From: Greg Homza <homza@indiana.edu> > Subject: Milwaukee Cathedral article? > > It should be interesting to hear some responses. (I'm surprised I = haven't > heard anything about this on the list already...) > > Best, > -greg homza > bloomington, IN > Greg:   I share your sentiments entirely. I thought that the rendering and floorplans showed a rather conservative re-arranging of the space, quite tasteful, and thoroughly workable. There are MANY spaces that have been reworked that way with much more radical results, and still without destroying the intent and success of the space.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Perils of Pianos in church From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:01:19 EDT   Dear Chatters:   I don't think the question here is whether or not pianos belong in church.   What is really going on here is that this practice so often leads to the destruction of the music program, providing avenues for the = banjo-and-sandal bands, as well as the hiring of left-footed piano students at minimum wage = or "volunteerism" to become "Ministers of the Lord's Musics." When those = piano players ARE asked to play the organ, they say, "It doesn't have a 'loud' pedal and I can't work the foot-keys," and the rolltop goes down for the = last time. It's shocking and heartbreaking, but that doesn't stop it from happening.   Pianos are found in many churches and synagogues with great music = programs, and no harm is done. But I sense a collective and very justifiable fear amongst trained professional organists that it is an invitation to a = downward spiral. I have seen it often, here in New York City, the cultural capital = of the world.   One of the most accomplished ecclesiastical musicians I know, with a DMA = from the finest conservatory, British choral training, and exceptional taste, = was just summarily fired from his job at a church with a long history of fine music because the new regime "wanted to go in a different direction." A century of tradition thrown out. And no, I am NOT talking about the (in)famous and yet to be explained event at Saint Mary's.   Another thing we must continue to re-examine and evaluate is why DO people =   have such intensely violent reactions to even the THOUGHT of organ music? =   Who and what is creating the experiences that LEAD to the abject horror at =   the mere MENTION of the organ? It's NOT a "plot." It IS cause and = effect. And until we figure it out, and CHANGE it, those reactions will continue = to hit us like a ton of bricks at the least expected and least desirable = moments.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #2244 - 07/19/01 From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:06:10 EDT   Bruce:   While you are genetically predisposed to commenting on every post, and = take enormous pride in angering people, bigoted remarks, even in jest, are shameful. This is the wrong list in which to pull that stunt.  
(back) Subject: Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article? From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:20:53 -0400   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --MS_Mac_OE_3078465654_4227360_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit   From: Cremona502@cs.com Subject: Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article?   Bruce says:   Personally, I don't like moving the altar from the East wall, even an = inch, but that seems to be the theme of the day.   Alan responds:   Well, Bruce, it's hardly "the theme of the day." When M. Luther was replying to requests from small-town clergy for advice on "what to do on Sunday morning," he responded that the mass should be in the vernacular, should include singing of hymns and preaching--and (paraphrasing) "one = more thing: we should pull the altar out from against the wall so the = celebrant can stand behind it, facing the people, as was done in ancient times. But that can wait a while."   Well, it waited all right. From 1526 to at least the late 1950s. Protestant architecture has long had that little table near the front end = of the center aisle, but I don't recall ever attending a protestant celebration, so don't know whether their clergy stand behind that table while celebrating, or in front of it in the pre-Vatican 2 mode. But OTHER than that, I think that Luther's advice was ignored for long enough, and = I'm glad to see that not only his followers but also the bulk of Romans and Anglicans as well have finally heeded it.   Alan     --MS_Mac_OE_3078465654_4227360_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article?</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <B>From: </B>Cremona502@cs.com<BR> <B>Subject: </B>Re: Milwaukee Cathedral article?<BR> <BR> Bruce says:<BR> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D3D"4">Personally, I don't like moving the altar from the East = wall=3D , even an inch, but that seems to be the <BR> theme of the day. &nbsp;<BR> <BR> Alan responds:<BR> <BR> Well, Bruce, it's hardly &quot;the theme of the day.&quot; &nbsp;When M. = Lu=3D ther was replying to requests from small-town clergy for advice on = &quot;wha=3D t to do on Sunday morning,&quot; he responded that the mass should be in = the=3D vernacular, should include singing of hymns and preaching--and = (paraphrasin=3D g) &quot;one more thing: &nbsp;we should pull the altar out from against = the=3D wall so the celebrant can stand behind it, facing the people, as was done = i=3D n ancient times. &nbsp;But that can wait a while.&quot; &nbsp;<BR> <BR> Well, it waited all right. &nbsp;From 1526 to at least the late 1950s. = &nbs=3D p;Protestant architecture has long had that little table near the front = end =3D of the center aisle, but I don't recall ever attending a protestant = celebrat=3D ion, so don't know whether their clergy stand behind that table while = celebr=3D ating, or in front of it in the pre-Vatican 2 mode. &nbsp;But OTHER than = tha=3D t, I think that Luther's advice was ignored for long enough, and I'm glad = to=3D see that not only his followers but also the bulk of Romans and Anglicans = a=3D s well have finally heeded it.<BR> <BR> Alan<BR> </FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --MS_Mac_OE_3078465654_4227360_MIME_Part--    
(back) Subject: Re: Why not? From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:04:26 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0039_01C110FA.F9C091E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Well, I for one am sorry you think the piano has no place in church, so = =3D please don't come to St. Agatha's, for I'd hate for you to suffer =3D disappointment. I use the 2-year old grand piano for prelude and =3D communion music (always unsung) almost (but not quite) as much as the =3D organ nowadays, and what's more, people listen to and enjoy it more. =3D There is dead silence for a prelude on the piano, whereas I have to =3D generally compete with one or more conversations if on the organ. I =3D don't exactly suck on the organ, and the compliments seem to focus on =3D the fact that they enjoy piano classical/religious music more than organ = =3D classical/religious music. Go figure.   Glenda Sutton (who has just changed her mind on the communion music =3D Sunday - instead of Willan on the organ, it will be an improvisation on = =3D "It is well with my soul", a good Methodist/Baptist hymn, on the piano =3D in memory of the anniversary of a parishioner's and my father's death)   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0039_01C110FA.F9C091E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D3D"text/html; charset=3D3Diso-8859-1" =3D http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Well, I for one am sorry you think = the =3D piano has no=3D20 place in church, so please don't come to St. Agatha's, for I'd hate for = =3D you to=3D20 suffer disappointment.&nbsp; I use the 2-year old grand piano for =3D prelude=3D20 and&nbsp;communion music (always unsung) almost (but not quite) as much = =3D as the=3D20 organ nowadays, and what's more, people listen to and enjoy it =3D more.&nbsp; There=3D20 is dead silence for a prelude on the piano, whereas I have to generally = =3D compete=3D20 with one or more conversations if on the organ.&nbsp; I don't exactly =3D suck on=3D20 the organ, and the compliments seem to focus on the fact that they enjoy = =3D piano=3D20 classical/religious music more than organ classical/religious =3D music.&nbsp; Go=3D20 figure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Glenda Sutton (who has just changed = her =3D mind on the=3D20 communion music Sunday - instead of Willan on the organ, it will be = an=3D20 improvisation on "It is well with my soul", a good Methodist/Baptist =3D hymn, on=3D20 the piano in memory of the anniversary of a parishioner's and my =3D father's=3D20 death)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0039_01C110FA.F9C091E0--    
(back) Subject: Re: Waaa-deen #1 RESULTS! From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:11:46 -0500   The divorce ceremonies are a little messy for our church, Marika - we = don't have full-time staff at the church to wash the walls and remove all the blood, guts, hair and body parts.   I used to offer a free service to my clients after we completed a particularly nasty divorce. Limping out of the judge's chambers bruised = and bleeding, I would tell them that if ever the thought of marriage again crossed their minds, to make an appointment (they could even tell the secretary it was an "emergency"), and I would talk them out of it or put a gun to their heads and relieve them of the misery to come, free of charge.   Glenda Sutton      
(back) Subject: Re: Why not? From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:16:01 EDT     --part1_cc.18083df9.28899721_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Granted, Ron, this is an organ forum, but the arguments AGAINST piano fail = to persuade me. I am an organist, love the organ, believe in the organ, = but...   The Christian church had no instrument, including organ for at least 1000 years. And there is a tradition on the Eastern side of Christianity that still does not use organ or any instrument for that matter.   Having said that, there is no question that the organ is the instrument = of choice for many worship situations.   Neil Brown   --part1_cc.18083df9.28899721_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2>Granted, Ron, this is an organ forum, but the arguments AGAINST = piano fail to <BR>persuade me. &nbsp;I am an organist, love the organ, believe in the = organ, but... <BR> <BR>The Christian church had no instrument, including organ for at least = 1000 <BR>years. &nbsp;And there is a tradition on the Eastern side of = Christianity that <BR>still does not use organ or any instrument for that matter. <BR> <BR>Having said that, &nbsp;there is no question that the organ is the = instrument of <BR>choice for many worship situations. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>Neil Brown</FONT></HTML>   --part1_cc.18083df9.28899721_boundary--  
(back) Subject: No more boring organ music!!!! From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:24:27 -0400   In our community an up-and-coming "Vineyard" knock-off church sent a recruitment flyer/videotape to every house in surrounding communities, and my subject line was the first of several bullets on the front. This prompted twenty of my choir members to BRING IT TO ME in indignation. = (Like I needed more copies!) The other bullets were:   ***Come as you are, no DRESSING UP!!!!   ***Sermons about how to live your life TODAY, no history lessons!!!!   ***Church you can understand RIGHT NOW without thinking about it all = day!!!!   So, in response to a recent post, somebody is very much putting this idea "out there".   This church has recently purchased a vacant "Home Depot" and is converting it into a "sacred" (??) space. The renovation is highly touted by the members, because "We've hired architects who have done major work at Walt Disney World!" I feel that I'm the insane one for this does not sound like = a good thing to me, and the radiant looks on their faces astound me.   At a recent Easter Sunrise service (contemporary) at which I subbed for = the keyboard player (I live to serve), I looked out and saw a choirmember (professional singer) who would be singing at the next two services. I = said "Gosh, you're so dedicated, I didn't even think you liked the contemporary thing." She said "Yeah, I don't. It was the only way my daughter and I could attend church together, after that she's off to the "Broadway Does Jesus" church which she likes better." This is not the same church as the Home Depot church. They're everywhere.   I think there's nothing wrong with such "worship" as an entry experience = for those who are totally unchurched. (I could quibble whether you call it "evangelism" or "worship" in that case.) But to stay at that level? I think throwing out our history and tradition is short-sighted. Such arrogance robs worship of any supernatural mystery which both obtains and expresses its power through ritual. To behave in a way which pretends = that the accrued "cloud of witnesses" and their power is irrelevant to today's living borders on the blasphemous. But looking around, I can tell it's = just me... and I should shut up now.   Chuck Peery Cincinnati      
(back) Subject: Re: Perils of Pianos in church From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 10:26:34 EDT     --part1_89.99f5180.2889999a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   You raise valid points, Sebastian. When I was at the conference at = Princeton SEminary in February, to mark the new Fritts organ there, I attended a workshop with Paul Westermeyer who related a story...   At his seminary where he teaches, he led a class that included several = Asian students. Their final exam was to prepare a worship service which the = Asian contingent did using several selections of music from their traditions. = Mr. Westermeyer encouraged them to use native styles as much as possible, and yet, whenever he heard them practicing, they were using organ.   He tried to discourage them from using organ (not in style, yada yada), = but they told him, "But we like the sound or the organ. We want to use = organ."   So there ya go.   I am not sure the "organ" is the target of wrath, as much as "tradition" = is. But let's not forget, we have seminarians now who have grown up "sans = organ", "sans traditional hymnody". They knoweth it not, liketh it not, and thus enter into church work without it. Scary notion, but it IS true.   O well, I love organ, but I was grew up playing piano for church. It's = all we had.   Peace to you all, Neil Brown   --part1_89.99f5180.2889999a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2>You raise valid points, Sebastian. &nbsp;When I was at the = conference at Princeton <BR>SEminary in February, to mark the new Fritts organ there, I attended a =   <BR>workshop with Paul Westermeyer who related a story... <BR> <BR>At his seminary where he teaches, he led a class that included several = Asian <BR>students. &nbsp;Their final exam was to prepare a worship service = which the Asian <BR>contingent did using several selections of music from their = traditions. &nbsp;Mr. <BR>Westermeyer encouraged them to use native styles as much as possible, = and <BR>yet, whenever he heard them practicing, they were using organ. <BR> <BR>He tried to discourage them from using organ (not in style, yada = yada), but <BR>they told him, "But we like the sound or the organ. &nbsp;We want to = use organ." <BR> <BR>So there ya go. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I am not sure the "organ" is the target of wrath, as much as = "tradition" is. &nbsp; <BR>But let's not forget, we have seminarians now who have grown up "sans = organ", <BR>"sans traditional hymnody". &nbsp;They knoweth it not, liketh it not, = and thus <BR>enter into church work without it. &nbsp;Scary notion, but it IS true. <BR> <BR>O well, I love organ, but I was grew up playing piano for church. = &nbsp;It's all <BR>we had. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>Peace to you all, <BR>Neil Brown</FONT></HTML>   --part1_89.99f5180.2889999a_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Why not? From: "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@qwest.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 07:29:16 -0700   >Churches years ago, had pipe organs, reed organs, if that's was the best >they could afford.   But there were many churches that "made do" with pianos -- even reed = organs could be expensive.   >In Psalm 150 It mentions organs and harps not pianos.   True -- the pianoforte hadn't even been thought of when the Psalms were written. But then, neither had the modern organ. The organ referred to = was little more than a collection of small flutes, about as much like a modern organ as a lyre is a piano. If you want to use psalm 150 to say that "organ" as used there justifies the modern pipe organ, then one could also say "harp" could be a "shadow" or type pointing to the modern piano.   Worship comes from living creatures, not inanimate objects. I have been = in worship settings with pianos, even <gasp> guitars that have been more glorifying of God than many organ-ized worship services. The instrument, whether it is piano, organ, or tracker-action theremin, is only a tool for the worshipper.   Dennis