PipeChat Digest #2252 - Saturday, July 21, 2001
 
the Pope says SING (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Why Catholics Don't Sing
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
why the RCs don't sing
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Perils of Pianos in church
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Perils of Pianos in church and the fat lady.
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Karate Kicks and Canines
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: Karate Kicks and Canines
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Perils of Pianos in church
  by "Jeffery Korns" <jakorns@home.com>
Sweeping generalizations about organs in small churches
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Sweeping generalizations about organs in small churches
  by "Jeffery Korns" <jakorns@home.com>
 

(back) Subject: the Pope says SING (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:38:27 -0700     --------------22495E6B8E3CBD4CC800F5F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Roman Catholics WILL sing, IF the following conditions are met:   (1) congregational singing has the enthusiastic support of ALL the priests in the parish ... not just one curate, not just the pastor ... ALL ... without this, all else is an exercise in futility. And yes, they DO have to pick up a hymnal and sing themselves, unless they're occupied with the liturgy.   (2) the church has decent acoustics   (3) the church has a decent organ   (4) the church has a decent ORGANIST   (5) the church has a decent hard-bound HYMNAL that doesn't look like a tattered Reader's Digest ... things have the dignity you accord them.   (6) said hymnal contains a permanent collection hymns and chants WORTH SINGING. I think it was Archbishop Weakland who said, "don't teach anything to your congregations that you don't want them singing ten years from now."   (5) cantors DON'T get up and bellow the hymns over a microphone, and/or wave their arms around. Isn't it curious how most mainline churches have managed all these years WITHOUT all that nonsense??!! We don't even ANNOUNCE our hymns ... yet the people manage to FIND them AND sing them.   (6) the musicians DO hold congregational rehearsals whenever two or three are gathered together (see below).   I was organist/choirmaster of Holy Rosary RC Church in Cleveland, 1963-1969, the period spanning the first wave of changes. I went to EVERY parish organization's meetings regularly for EIGHT YEARS and had short congregational rehearsals, with the enthusiastic backing of the priests.   "Oh, oh! Here comes Bud ... we gotta SING!" (grin)   I rehearsed ONE new hymn before every Sunday Mass (I never introduced more than one; then we sang it for a month) ... the old-fashioned way .... I "lined it out" a line at a time; then they sang it back; then two lines, then three lines, and so forth ... a cappella, no arm-waving.   At the end of eight years, they could sing any text to any tune of the corresponding metre from the Peoples' Mass Book (that was all we HAD, back then) from just the words (well, I DID throw in some tunes from the 1940, and LOTS of texts from the English Hymnal).   Sadly, after all THAT, it just took ONE change of curates to destroy it all ... we got a tub-thumper enthusiast, who refused to say Mass with traditional music, and that was that. I left shortly after he arrived.   Cheers,   Bud       Alan Freed wrote:   > From: "Jeffery Korns" <jakorns@home.com> > Subject: Re: Perils of Pianos in church > > One of the big complaints of some RC priests I have worked with is > that the congregation doesn't sing. Again, the idea of the > congregation being an active participant in worship is a "new" > concept. > > Alan adds: ". . . in those circles." > > > Sorry for the rant > > > No need to apologize; we chat easily here. You make sense. > > Alan   --------------22495E6B8E3CBD4CC800F5F8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Roman Catholics WILL sing, IF the following conditions are met: <p>(1) congregational singing has the enthusiastic support of ALL the = priests in the parish ... not just one curate, not just the pastor ... ALL ... without this, all else is an exercise in futility. And yes, they DO have to pick up a hymnal and sing themselves, unless they're occupied with the liturgy. <p>(2) the church has decent acoustics <p>(3) the church has a decent organ <p>(4) the church has a decent ORGANIST <p>(5) the church has a decent hard-bound HYMNAL that doesn't look like a tattered Reader's Digest ... things have the dignity you accord them. <p>(6) said hymnal contains a permanent collection hymns and chants WORTH SINGING. I think it was Archbishop Weakland who said, "don't teach = anything to your congregations that you don't want them singing ten years from = now." <p>(5) cantors DON'T get up and bellow the hymns over a microphone, and/or wave their arms around. Isn't it curious how most mainline churches have managed all these years WITHOUT all that nonsense??!! We don't even = ANNOUNCE our hymns ... yet the people manage to FIND them AND sing them. <p>(6) the musicians DO hold congregational rehearsals whenever two or three are gathered together (see below). <p>I was organist/choirmaster of Holy Rosary RC Church in Cleveland, = 1963-1969, the period spanning the first wave of changes. I went to EVERY parish = organization's meetings regularly for EIGHT YEARS and had short congregational = rehearsals, with the enthusiastic backing of the priests. <p>"Oh, oh! Here comes Bud ... we gotta SING!" (grin) <p>I rehearsed ONE new hymn before every Sunday Mass (I never introduced more than one; then we sang it for a month) ... the old-fashioned way ... I "lined it out" a line at a time; then they sang it back; then two lines, then three lines, and so forth ... a cappella, no arm-waving. <p>At the end of eight years, they could sing any text to any tune of the corresponding metre from the Peoples' Mass Book (that was all we HAD, back then) from just the words (well, I DID throw in some tunes from the 1940, and LOTS of texts from the English Hymnal). <p>Sadly, after all THAT, it just took ONE change of curates to destroy it all ... we got a tub-thumper enthusiast, who refused to say Mass with traditional music, and that was that. I left shortly after he arrived. <p>Cheers, <p>Bud <p>&nbsp; <p>Alan Freed wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><b>From: </b>"Jeffery Korns" &lt;jakorns@home.com> <br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Perils of Pianos in church <p>One of the big complaints of some RC priests I have worked with is that the congregation doesn't sing.&nbsp; Again, the idea of the congregation being an active participant in worship is a "new" concept. <p>Alan adds:&nbsp; ". . . in those circles." <br>&nbsp; <p>Sorry for the rant <br>&nbsp; <p>No need to apologize; we chat easily here.&nbsp; You make sense. <p>Alan</blockquote> </html>   --------------22495E6B8E3CBD4CC800F5F8--    
(back) Subject: Re: Why Catholics Don't Sing From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:43:19 EDT   Hi Alan:   There is a rather interesting book title out Why Catholics Don't Sing, by Day. It's witty, funny, and all too true. The RC church in the US has strong, lingering Irish, English influence.   The upshot is the period of Henry VIII to 1829 about 280 years or so, when it wasn't healthy to be found Worshipping as a Catholic. Masses were said outside in the fields well away from prying eyes. If you were caught, you were tortured and killed as a Papist. By English law they were considered enemies of the Crown. People learned that being quiet, was a good way to live out the rest of the day. It was during this same period that "The Partridge in a Peartree" was promulgated. That's an interesting story in itself. Everybody sang it, but only the Catholic kids knew what it all ment. Hymns were sung quietly if at all. There are still stones where these services were held dotting the English and Irish countrysides. The all time Favorite: Holy God, We Praise Thy Name.   Henry finally got the son he wanted, Edward, after the divorce or death of five earlier wives only to be thwarted in the end. The son was not mentally capable of ruling and died in his teens. Poor Henry, poor RC church, but the damage was done. England dealt with Cromwell or he infact dealt with the English. Cromwell was an equal opportunity persecutor, CofE, RC, people, He was a commoner wanting to be King. He destroyed buildings, castles you name it! Civil War was not beneath this guy.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: why the RCs don't sing From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 11:07:26 -0700   Ron is right about the "Irish Connection", and the persecutions in England.   There's a WONDERFUL hymn in the old Westminster (RC) Hymnal from England that describes the situation at the time:   "On distant moor, in forest glen, Mass and shrift (confession) were sought for still, E'er ancient memories perished."   My ancestors were recusants (RC families who refused to submit to the Crown and the Church of England) in the wild border country in the north of England, so I KNOW something of that history (grin).   This was the era of priest-holes (hiding-places for the priests in the manor-houses), chests that converted to altars, vestments woven of all five liturgical colors so only one set was needed, rosary-buttons on shirts and blouses, the English College at Douay, France, and, most of all, the Jesuit Martyrs of England.   And in Ireland, the impoverished parishes under Sassenach (English) domination could barely SAY the Mass, much LESS maintain organs and choral establishments. So ... by the time the Irish immigration wave broke against these shores, the habit of the silent Mass for safety's sake was so firmly ingrained that the religious freedom of the New World had little (if any) effect on it.   A sad but VERY interesting period in Church History ...   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Perils of Pianos in church From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:31:58 EDT     --part1_111.2a6f9c4.288b249e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/21/01 10:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jakorns@home.com writes:     > . > As was pointed out earlier, the majority of churches in this country =   > are protestant, small and "low church". When our country was a mostly > rural population many church meetings had only plainsong, pianos or a = pump > organ. The pipe organ was for the "rich churches" in the larger towns. =   >   May I suggest that those who accept the above statement join OHS and go to =   conventions to see the many, MANY organs that have survived in small = country churches of all mainstream denominations (some of the most beautiful I've seen are in Baptist Churches!!). Granted, there are some churches that have never had organs, but this blanket statement is way off the track. =     Trying to prove the points about what instruments to use in worship by mangling psalms is rediculous. It reminds me of my favorite "quote" from =   the Bible: "..and Judas went and hanged himself.... and Jesus said, 'go =   and do thou likewise.' "     Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_111.2a6f9c4.288b249e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 7/21/01 10:22:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>jakorns@home.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">. <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As was pointed out earlier, the majority of = churches in this country <BR>are protestant, small and "low church". &nbsp;When our country was a = mostly <BR>rural population many church meetings had only plainsong, pianos or a = pump <BR>organ. &nbsp;The pipe organ was for the "rich churches" in the larger = towns. &nbsp; <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>May I suggest that those who accept the above statement join OHS and = go to <BR>conventions to see the many, MANY organs that have survived in small = country <BR>churches of all mainstream denominations (some of the most beautiful = I've <BR>seen are in Baptist Churches!!). &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Granted, there are = some churches that <BR>have never had organs, but this blanket statement is way off the = track. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>Trying to prove the points about what instruments to use in worship by =   <BR>mangling psalms is rediculous. &nbsp;&nbsp;It reminds me of my = favorite "quote" from <BR>the Bible: &nbsp;&nbsp;"..and Judas went and hanged himself.... = &nbsp;and Jesus said, 'go <BR>and do thou likewise.' " <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_111.2a6f9c4.288b249e_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Perils of Pianos in church and the fat lady. From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:35:35 EDT     --part1_108.2de1bf2.288b2577_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/21/01 11:20:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RonSeverin@aol.com writes:     > The pop genre promoted by televangeleist > stations doesn't help either with the fat lady singing, and a praise = band > behind. Jazzy reditions, and pop music really seem out of place. Of > course, I too like tradition, and this new jazzy approach leaves me = cold. > It's entertainment thinly veiled as worship.   And it's getting worse.... we now must listent to seemingly endless advertisements for "Great Hymns of Worship" on TV. The worst of the = worst now on CD! Icch! Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_108.2de1bf2.288b2577_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 7/21/01 11:20:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>RonSeverin@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The pop genre = promoted by televangeleist <BR>stations doesn't help either with the fat lady singing, and a praise = band <BR>behind. Jazzy reditions, and pop music really seem out of place. Of <BR>course, I too like tradition, and this new jazzy approach leaves me = cold. <BR>It's entertainment thinly veiled as worship. </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" = LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>And it's getting worse.... &nbsp;we now must listent to seemingly = endless <BR>advertisements for "Great Hymns of Worship" on TV. &nbsp;&nbsp;The = worst of the worst <BR>now on CD! &nbsp;Icch! <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_108.2de1bf2.288b2577_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Karate Kicks and Canines From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:52:07 EDT   Bud corrects in response:     >I didn't do it; it was Wurlibird1 (grin).   >Bud, who would NEVER kick a dog ... our house has always been a refugium >omnium for stray dogs, cats, people, etc. (grin) <<   Yep, it was I and it wasn't a Beagle. So far as I know, Bruce and I are still on speaking terms and the Beagles are safe and secure.   Here is the rest of the story. The dog retaliated and I retired from Kung = Fu almost instantly. Scared the literal s**t out of me! Dogs are forgiving creatures and we were ultimately to enjoy many fond times together. When = I buried Charlie about ten years later, I remembered that kicking incident. =   Not a pleasant memory after years of unquestioned love and trust from my = pal.     Jim P      
(back) Subject: Re: Karate Kicks and Canines From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:10:49 EDT     --part1_18.f9eff25.288b2db9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 7/21/01 2:53:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Wurlibird1@aol.com writes:     > . The dog retaliated and I retired from Kung Fu > almost instantly. Scared the literal s**t out of me! Dogs are = forgiving > creatures and we were ultimately to enjoy many fond times together. = When I > buried Charlie about ten years later, I remembered that kicking = incident. > Not a pleasant memory after years of unquestioned love and trust from my =   > pal. > >   A wonderfully touching story, Jim. The Baskerbeagles have recalled your =   "gift" from Tele-Poop and invite you to visit them at Howling Acres (some = new photos are up in the Howlarious Photos section). Have a great weekend!!! = ;-)   Scritchies...   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_18.f9eff25.288b2db9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 7/21/01 2:53:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, <BR>Wurlibird1@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">. &nbsp;The dog = retaliated and I retired from Kung Fu <BR>almost instantly. &nbsp;Scared the literal s**t out of me! &nbsp;Dogs = are forgiving <BR>creatures and we were ultimately to enjoy many fond times together. = &nbsp;When I <BR>buried Charlie about ten years later, I remembered that kicking = incident. &nbsp; <BR>Not a pleasant memory after years of unquestioned love and trust from = my <BR>pal. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>A wonderfully touching story, Jim. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The Baskerbeagles = have recalled your <BR>"gift" from Tele-Poop and invite you to visit them at Howling Acres = (some new <BR>photos are up in the Howlarious Photos section). &nbsp;&nbsp;Have a = great weekend!!! &nbsp; <BR>;-) <BR> <BR>Scritchies... <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_18.f9eff25.288b2db9_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Perils of Pianos in church From: "Jeffery Korns" <jakorns@home.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:31:04 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C111F1.C5EB3080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Bruce wrote: "May I suggest that those who accept the above statement join OHS and go = =3D to=3D20 conventions to see the many, MANY organs that have survived in small =3D country=3D20 churches of all mainstream denominations"   Just to stoke the issue, may I suggest that obviously the OHS is not = =3D going to go look at churches that do not have organs. Having grown up =3D in small churches (less than 150 persons) and having ministered in a =3D number of them, the organ is a rather late arrival to the majority of =3D small churches. Many of these churches have added organs since the =3D 1950's (hence all the Hammonds, Baldwins, Conns that were built during =3D that time). These churches had a worship style that utilized the =3D musical instrument for a small portion of their service (no singing =3D liturgy, small or non existant choirs, only one or two hymns per =3D service). The hymns tended to be "gospel" style (look through the =3D evangelical protestant hymnals of the early 20th century and you will =3D see a lot of lousy hymns that have, mercifully, died out). =3D20 When the churches did get organs, the organists were their pianists = =3D who "converted". That is why we now are facing a shortage of young =3D organists, because the little old lady volunteers have retired or died. = =3D At about the same time the electronic organs began to die, the churches = =3D bought new organs- but had no one to play them (even when they embraced = =3D the concept of paying the organist). Other churches decided that their =3D money would be better spent on other ministries. So, it's back to the piano for many churches. This will sound heretical, but I have advised small churches to =3D invest in a good piano, rather than an organ, if they are unable to pay = =3D an organist or if there simply are no organists around their farming =3D community. I should add that the alternative for many of those churches = =3D was a "synthesizer" with organ sounds. I would prefer they have a good = =3D piano to a bad "keyboard". Jeff Korns http://members.home.net/jakorns/ Oh if anyone is interested in some of the "lousy" early 20th century =3D hymns I can certainly provide examples. ----- Original Message -----=3D20         /=3D20   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C111F1.C5EB3080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Bruce wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>"May I suggest that those who accept the above =3D statement join=3D20 OHS and go to <BR>conventions to see the many, MANY organs that have =3D survived in=3D20 small country <BR>churches of all mainstream denominations"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Just to stoke the issue, may I suggest that =3D obviously=3D20 the OHS is not going to go look at churches that do not have =3D organs.&nbsp;=3D20 Having grown up in small churches (less than 150 persons) and having =3D ministered=3D20 in a number of them, the organ is a rather late arrival to the =3D <U>majority</U>=3D20 of small churches.&nbsp; Many of these churches have added organs since = =3D the=3D20 1950's (hence all the Hammonds, Baldwins, Conns that were built during =3D that=3D20 time).&nbsp; These churches had a worship style that utilized the =3D musical=3D20 instrument for a <U>small</U> portion of their service&nbsp; (no singing = =3D   liturgy, small or non existant choirs, only one or two hymns per =3D service).&nbsp;=3D20 The hymns tended to be "gospel" style (look through the=3D20 evangelical&nbsp;protestant hymnals of the early 20th century and you =3D will see a=3D20 lot of lousy hymns that have, mercifully,&nbsp;died out).&nbsp; </DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When the churches did get organs, the organists = =3D were=3D20 their pianists who "converted".&nbsp; That is why we now are facing a =3D shortage=3D20 of young organists, because the little old lady volunteers have retired = =3D or=3D20 died.&nbsp; At about the same time the electronic organs began to die, =3D the=3D20 churches bought new organs- but had no one to play them (even when they = =3D embraced=3D20 the concept of paying the organist). Other&nbsp;churches decided =3D that&nbsp;their=3D20 money would be better spent on&nbsp;other ministries.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp; So, it's back to the piano for many churches.</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT size=3D3D3>This will = =3D sound=3D20 heretical, but I have advised small churches to invest in a good piano, = =3D rather=3D20 than an organ, if they are unable to pay an organist or if there simply = =3D are no=3D20 organists around their farming community.&nbsp;&nbsp;I should add that =3D the=3D20 alternative for many of those churches was a "synthesizer" with organ=3D20 sounds.&nbsp; I would prefer they have a good piano to a bad=3D20 "keyboard".</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Jeff Korns<BR><A=3D20 href=3D3D"http://members.home.net/jakorns/">http://members.home.net/jakorns= =3D /</A></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3D3D2>Oh if anyone is interested in some of the = "lousy"=3D20 early&nbsp;20th century hymns I can certainly provide =3D examples.</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><FONT=3D20 face=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT = size=3D3D2>&nbsp;</DIV><BR><BR><BR>/</FONT> =3D   </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_000A_01C111F1.C5EB3080--    
(back) Subject: Sweeping generalizations about organs in small churches From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:53:03 -0700   I REALLY don't think it's possible to generalize.   For instance, a hundred years ago, EVERY Roman Catholic church in this country, no matter HOW small, or HOW poor, likely had SOME kind of organ (reed or pipe), because that was all that was ALLOWED. The piano simply wasn't an option. It was forbidden by canon law at that time. If you count up all the RC churches in this country, that's a LOT of churches with a LOT of organs ... keeps OCH busy (grin).   Sacred Heart RC church in OBERLIN, of all places, had a two-manual and pedal Mason & Hamlin reed organ until WELL into the 1960s. It was eventually replaced by an electronic, and then a small pipe organ.   Episcopal churches had organs, no matter what size church, or what part of the country (there's an historic Episcopal church at every crossroads, seemingly, in the Deep South ... and they all have organs).   I would imagine it was the same for the Lutherans. I don't think I EVER saw a piano in an old Lutheran church.   Presbyterians looked with suspicion on organs until comparatively recently, so that might account for the lack of historic organs in Presbyterian (and Congregational) churches.   Methodists (in the South, at least) had organs, if they could get them. My mother's church was over a hundred years old ... the succession of instruments there was: an Estey reed organ, a second-hand Estey pipe organ, and finally a little 4-rank unit organ by a local builder. There WAS a piano in the church, but it was only played when the organist was on vacation, or when the organ failed.   Baptists, of course, were all over the lot, being Baptists (grin). Some didn't permit ANY musical instruments; others did.   Cheers,   Bud            
(back) Subject: Re: Sweeping generalizations about organs in small churches From: "Jeffery Korns" <jakorns@home.com> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:15:48 -0500   I REALLY don't think it's possible to generalize. > Cheers, > > Bud   Bud, I agree, for the most part. The problem with any generalization comes with the fact that there are too many variables. I would suspect that in the east and the south, where churches were longer established you would tend to find more "organs". In the midwest (Iowa, Minnesota, Nebraska, etc.. ) you would have = found few in the small town protestant churches. These churches tended to be independant, and not centrally linked or strongly affiliated to any denomination (hence fewer guidlines). These independant churches also tended to be smaller - some meeting in houses, not "churches". As the churches got larger, they organized their ministries along the lines of the larger churches they were familiar with. My great grandfather was a Congregational minister, that basically was paid week to week by his congregations (in the late 19th and early 20th century this was common). In a number of cases the hammond solo vox (attatched to the piano) was the first "organ" the churches had. After WWII they added the regular = organ to the service. Jeff Korns http://members.home.net/jakorns/     > I REALLY don't think it's possible to generalize. > Cheers, > > Bud > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >