PipeChat Digest #2158 - Saturday, June 16, 2001
 
Re: french composer anecdotes wanted
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: french composer anecdotes wanted
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Mendelssohn Sonata III
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: Mendelssohn Sonata III
  by "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net>
Toccatas at St-Sulpice
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org>
Toccatas at Saint-Sulpice, Paris
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org>
Re: Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post)
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post)
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
harpsichord donation (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: french composer anecdotes wanted From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:29:12 +0800   Well this man was not a Frenchman but he was a cathedral organist. The priest was tone deaf but did not realize it and the organist got so frustrated at giving a note and having the priest start a tone and a half flat, that one Sunday he gave the note --- on the Tuba. The story goes that he got the sack. Bob E.     > >No concert pianist of violinist would > >ever think of resorting to such antics during a > >recital. Neither should the organist. It's about > >time we take our art seriously and leave the > >foolishness at home. > >    
(back) Subject: Re: french composer anecdotes wanted From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:41:51 -0500   Not French either, but.........the organ builders in Bach's day would = sweat whenever he walked in to try-out a newly-made instrument.   Rick    
(back) Subject: Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:50:13 EDT     --part1_ca.168eb57d.285bcf05_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   I am curious as how you all might interpret the 3rd Sonata in A Major = of=3D20 Felix Mendelssohn. While written/printed as two movements (Con Moto = Maestos=3D o=3D20 and Andante Tranquillo) the first movement definitely has three = distinct=3D20 sections before returning to the initial theme. =3D20   As my score is at the Shrine I will do the best I can from memory here = at=3D20 home. Con Moto Maestoso is rather self explanatory and most seem to take = that=3D20 section at a "basic" standard tempo. =3D20   The second section breaks into a dotted almost march-like motif. I = myself=3D20 play this roughly at the same tempo as the first, perhaps ever so = slightly=3D20 faster. Thomas Murray takes it definitely a little quicker while John = Scott=3D =3D20 maintains the original quarter note beat it seems.   The third section breaks into running sixteenth note passages. It is = this=3D20 section that I am so curious about. There is a definite tempo indication = bu=3D t=3D20 it slips my mind at the moment, as previously stated. One local = organist=3D20 insisted that it should be taken very quickly, almost as quickly as one = can=3D20 play the notes, to the point that when he demonstrated to me I said "no = way-=3D =3D20 it even sounds too frantic and harried." Another local organist also said = t=3D o=3D20 take it very quickly. Then I hear John Scott play it at almost the = same=3D20 tempo as the previous two sections with perhaps just a slight hint of=3D20 accelerando. Thomas Murray takes the first four measures of this section = as=3D =3D20 a gradual accelerando and, yes, does play it rather briskly.   Personally I hear a VERY gradual accelerando with each progressing = section,=3D20 but NOT to the point of being so frantic and vivace. I hear this sonata = as=3D20 rather grand and broad and elegant. I realize that individual = instruments=3D20 and acoustics also play a major role in the interpretation and what might = be=3D =3D20 correct.   I am also curious as to how others interpret the Manual I/Manual II = contrast=3D ..=3D20 I like using a rather substantial, quasi full organ chorus for Manual I = and=3D =3D20 then a big reed fanfare for Manual II. How might others feel about this = as=3D20 well?   I fully realize that I am merely asking a tempo interpretation question = here=3D =3D20 and don't know how I got into this quandary but- there you have it. I = look=3D20 forward to the inputs of others.   SCOTT F. FOPPIANO, Principal Organist and Director of Music and Liturgy THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI (Geo. Kilgen & Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) =3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat dicens, fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D     --part1_ca.168eb57d.285bcf05_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en   <HTML><FONT FACE=3D3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D3D2 = FAMILY=3D =3D3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D3D"0">I am curious as how = you all mi=3D ght interpret the 3rd Sonata in A Major of=3D20 <BR>Felix Mendelssohn. &nbsp;While written/printed as two movements (Con = Mot=3D o Maestoso=3D20 <BR>and Andante Tranquillo) the first movement definitely has three = distinct=3D =3D20 <BR>sections before returning to the initial theme. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>As my score is at the Shrine I will do the best I can from memory here = a=3D t=3D20 <BR>home. <BR>Con Moto Maestoso is rather self explanatory and most seem to take = that=3D20 <BR>section at a "basic" standard tempo. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>The second section breaks into a dotted almost march-like motif. = &nbsp;I=3D myself=3D20 <BR>play this roughly at the same tempo as the first, perhaps ever so = slight=3D ly=3D20 <BR>faster. &nbsp;Thomas Murray takes it definitely a little quicker while = J=3D ohn Scott=3D20 <BR>maintains the original quarter note beat it seems. <BR> <BR>The third section breaks into running sixteenth note passages. = &nbsp;It=3D20=3D is this=3D20 <BR>section that I am so curious about. &nbsp;There is a definite tempo = indi=3D cation but=3D20 <BR>it slips my mind at the moment, as previously stated. &nbsp;One local = or=3D ganist=3D20 <BR>insisted that it should be taken very quickly, almost as quickly as = one=3D20=3D can=3D20 <BR>play the notes, to the point that when he demonstrated to me I said = "no=3D20=3D way-=3D20 <BR>it even sounds too frantic and harried." &nbsp;Another local organist = al=3D so said to=3D20 <BR>take it very quickly. &nbsp;Then I hear John Scott play it at almost = the=3D same=3D20 <BR>tempo as the previous two sections with perhaps just a slight hint = of=3D20 <BR>accelerando. &nbsp;Thomas Murray takes the first four measures of this = s=3D ection as=3D20 <BR>a gradual accelerando and, yes, does play it rather briskly. <BR> <BR>Personally I hear a VERY gradual accelerando with each progressing = secti=3D on,=3D20 <BR>but NOT to the point of being so frantic and vivace. &nbsp;I hear this = s=3D onata as=3D20 <BR>rather grand and broad and elegant. &nbsp;I realize that individual = inst=3D ruments=3D20 <BR>and acoustics also play a major role in the interpretation and what = migh=3D t be=3D20 <BR>correct. <BR> <BR>I am also curious as to how others interpret the Manual I/Manual II = cont=3D rast.=3D20 <BR>&nbsp;I like using a rather substantial, quasi full organ chorus for = Man=3D ual I and=3D20 <BR>then a big reed fanfare for Manual II. &nbsp;How might others feel = about=3D this as=3D20 <BR>well? <BR> <BR>I fully realize that I am merely asking a tempo interpretation = question=3D20=3D here=3D20 <BR>and don't know how I got into this quandary but- there you have it. = &nbs=3D p;I look=3D20 <BR>forward to the inputs of others. <BR> <BR><B>SCOTT F. FOPPIANO</B>, Principal Organist and Director of Music and = L=3D iturgy <BR>THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, MI <BR>(Geo. Kilgen &amp; Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) <BR><I>=3DE2=3D80=3D9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat = dicens, <BR>fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=3DE2=3D80=3D9D</I> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_ca.168eb57d.285bcf05_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Mendelssohn Sonata III From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 14:48:18 -0700   The Henle urtext, which is based on a comparison of the first English edition (Novello) and the first German edition (B & H) has "Con moto maestoso M.M. quarter note equals 72" at the head. The M.M.s are original with Mendelssohn.   There is no change of tempo at the fugue, but the indication "Un poco meno forte".   When the 16th notes begin, there is the indication "Da questa parte fino al Maggiore poco a poco piu animato e piu forte (sino al MM. quarter note equals 100)".   At the third measure of the pedal solo which modulates back to A Major, there is the indication "ritard.(ando?) al tempo primo".   At the return to the first theme in A Major, once again there is the indication M.M. quarter note equals 72.   The second movement has quarter note equals 76.   That said, I'D say the determining factor is this: taking into consideration the action of one's particular organ and the acoustics of one's particular church, the sixteenth-note section should be played NO FASTER than M.M. quarter note equals 100, and SLOWER if the sixteenth notes blur together and/or sound rushed.   M.M. 72 sounds a BIT slow on first hearing ... it would require thinking LONG phrase-lines and pretty close legato ... likewise in the fugue; M.M. 100 at the sixteenth note section is a PRETTY good clip, particularly when the pedal enters in sixteenth notes ... THAT'S probably the determining factor right there: IF one's Pedal Organ speaks quickly and cleanly enough, then M.M. 100 is probably the TOP speed; if not, slower.   There are NO indications of stop changes or dynamics in the movement, other than "FF" at the beginning, which Mendelssohn defines in the preface as "Full Organ", the "Un poco meno forte" at the beginning of the fugue, which, according to the preface, would probably mean the plenum of the uncoupled Great Organ; and a return to "FF" when the first theme returns in A Major. There is NO change of stops or dynamics when the sixteenth notes enter, but rather " poco a poco piu animato e piu forte", which would seem to indicate a GRADUAL build-up back to full organ. Thematically there are opportunities for that at measures 80, 85, 89, 92, 97, the pedal entry at measure 101, and the final pedal solo at measure 109.   The Andante has simply "piano e dolce".   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach    
(back) Subject: RE: Mendelssohn Sonata III From: "Mike Swaldo" <mswal@adelphia.net> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:14:46 -0400   This Sonata is an expansion/revision of a wedding march Mendelssohn wrote for his sister. How about a stately, processional tempo.   Mike      
(back) Subject: Toccatas at St-Sulpice From: "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:25:44 -0400   "Toccatas at Saint-Sulpice, Paris" is a brand new, low-priced, promotional CD from the Ligia label (based in Vichy, France, it contains a catalog of the label's CDs) featuring virtuoso Olivier Vernet playing 19th-and-early-20th-century French toccatas by Gigout, Dubois, = Bo=EBllmann, Widor, Guilmant, and Vierne on the organ completed in 1862 by Aristide Cavaill=E9-Coll.   Bill    
(back) Subject: Toccatas at Saint-Sulpice, Paris From: "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 19:27:41 -0400   Oops! Forgot to mention the point that the "Toccatas at Saint-Sulpice, Paris" CD is on the opening page at http://www.ohscatalog.org   "Toccatas at Saint-Sulpice, Paris" is a brand new, low-priced, promotional CD from the Ligia label (based in Vichy, France, it contains a catalog of the label's CDs) featuring virtuoso Olivier Vernet playing 19th-and-early-20th-century French toccatas by Gigout, Dubois, = Bo=EBllmann, Widor, Guilmant, and Vierne on the organ completed in 1862 by Aristide Cavaill=E9-Coll.        
(back) Subject: Re: Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post) From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:02:50 -0700 (PDT)   Play it any way you want. Who cares how John Scott or Tom Murray does it. Play it the way that feels natural to you.   --- ScottFop@aol.com wrote: > I am curious as how you all might interpret the 3rd > Sonata in A Major of > Felix Mendelssohn. While written/printed as two > movements (Con Moto Maestoso > and Andante Tranquillo) the first movement > definitely has three distinct > sections before returning to the initial theme. > > As my score is at the Shrine I will do the best I > can from memory here at > home. > Con Moto Maestoso is rather self explanatory and > most seem to take that > section at a "basic" standard tempo. > > The second section breaks into a dotted almost > march-like motif. I myself > play this roughly at the same tempo as the first, > perhaps ever so slightly > faster. Thomas Murray takes it definitely a little > quicker while John Scott > maintains the original quarter note beat it seems. > > The third section breaks into running sixteenth note > passages. It is this > section that I am so curious about. There is a > definite tempo indication but > it slips my mind at the moment, as previously > stated. One local organist > insisted that it should be taken very quickly, > almost as quickly as one can > play the notes, to the point that when he > demonstrated to me I said "no way- > it even sounds too frantic and harried." Another > local organist also said to > take it very quickly. Then I hear John Scott play > it at almost the same > tempo as the previous two sections with perhaps just > a slight hint of > accelerando. Thomas Murray takes the first four > measures of this section as > a gradual accelerando and, yes, does play it rather > briskly. > > Personally I hear a VERY gradual accelerando with > each progressing section, > but NOT to the point of being so frantic and vivace. > I hear this sonata as > rather grand and broad and elegant. I realize that > individual instruments > and acoustics also play a major role in the > interpretation and what might be > correct. > > I am also curious as to how others interpret the > Manual I/Manual II contrast. > I like using a rather substantial, quasi full organ > chorus for Manual I and > then a big reed fanfare for Manual II. How might > others feel about this as > well? > > I fully realize that I am merely asking a tempo > interpretation question here > and don't know how I got into this quandary but- > there you have it. I look > forward to the inputs of others. > > SCOTT F. FOPPIANO, Principal Organist and Director > of Music and Liturgy > THE NATIONAL SHRINE OF THE LITTLE FLOWER, Royal Oak, > MI > (Geo. Kilgen & Son, St. Louis, MO, Opus 5180, 1933) > =E2=80=9CCantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat > dicens, > fiat cor meum immaculatum ut non confundar.=E2=80=9D > >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Tempi in Mendelssohn Sonata III (x post) From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 20:10:32 EDT     --part1_f6.b696134.285bfdf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Scott Foppiano < ScottFop@aol.com > wrote:   <<I am curious as how you all might interpret the 3rd Sonata in A Major of =   Felix Mendelssohn. While written/printed as two movements (Con Moto = Maestoso and Andante Tranquillo) the first movement definitely has three distinct sections before returning to the initial theme. >>   I agree with Scott on moving the second section (fuge) forward with a bit more excitement than the opening section. I usually begin at about 66/quarter note, and accellerating after measure 9. I think the fugue = could be ponderous if not pushed a little in tempo to about 76/qtr or so. The third section needs a very forward-moving tempo, but this needs to be governed primarily by two things: the clarity/weight of the organ and the =   acoustics of the room. The sixteenth notes need to be clear and phrased = in a way to indicate pulse and response to form, and at a tempo that will allow =   for articulation and breathing, rather than being played in a way similar = to rolling a ball down a hill. I think there really needs to be some give = and take in this section to keep the listener from being at first overwhelmed with the excitement and then irritated with the force of motion. I would really avoid playing this section at virtuoso break-neck speed. The = harmonic structure is typical Mendelssohn elegance and is lost in a rush. At the conclusion of the third section, at the pedal solo, the ritard should be carefully planned so that the tempo I is not reached too soon. I do not = slow this more than the tempo I. The repeat of the opening section I do at = the indicated 72/q (which is a bit faster than I began, but the tempo at which = I concluded the first section).   The Andante tranquillo I play a bit slower than indicated, preferring a = more tranquil 66/q than the indicated 76/q which I consider to be more = dance-like, and hardly tranquil. It's a very beautiful conclusion and I don't think = it should be rushed. Registration here varies greatly from celestes, to = unison strings and octave flutes, to my favorite, an 8' Principal with tremolo.   Again, I'm with Scott in hearing this piece as "grand, broad and elegant'. = Any hurrying of this piece greatly compromises this excuisite elegance.   This is one place where I like to use a very large solo reed. After all, this piece was originally conceived as a wedding march. The opening = section I play on straight plenum. After the solo beginning at measure 8, I like = to add Swell reeds with the box closed, gradually opening the box for the subsequent 7 measures and then adding the Swell mixture. For the fugue section, I retire the Swell mixture and sub and octave reeds, and closing = the Swell box. Depending upon the strength of the Great, I use the mixture, = but prefer to omit it until the 16th notes begin at section 3. Sub and octave =   reeds are added in the course of that section, adding the pedal reeds 14 measures before the conclusion of that section, and the Great reeds and = Great to Pedal 4 measures before the conclusion of the section (at the pedal = solo). At the beginning of the return to the beginning statement, I retire the Great reeds. Either moving to the Swell or closing the Swell box are options for the indicated manual change to Clavier II. I bring the Great =   reeds back on for the concluding 5-1/2 measures. The ritard at this point = is a grand one and is accented by emphasizing the antiphonal style phrasing = of the upper vs lower voices.       Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_f6.b696134.285bfdf8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0">Scott Foppiano &lt; = ScottFop@aol.com &gt; wrote: <BR> <BR>&lt;&lt;I am curious as how you all might interpret the 3rd Sonata in = A Major of <BR>Felix Mendelssohn. &nbsp;While written/printed as two movements (Con = Moto Maestoso <BR>and Andante Tranquillo) the first movement definitely has three = distinct <BR>sections before returning to the initial theme. &nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; <BR> <BR>I agree with Scott on moving the second section (fuge) forward with a = bit <BR>more excitement than the opening section. &nbsp;I usually begin at = about <BR>66/quarter note, and accellerating after measure 9. &nbsp;&nbsp;I = think the fugue could <BR>be ponderous if not pushed a little in tempo to about 76/qtr or so. = &nbsp;&nbsp;The <BR>third section needs a very forward-moving tempo, but this needs to be <BR>governed primarily by two things: &nbsp;the clarity/weight of the = organ and the <BR>acoustics of the room. &nbsp;The sixteenth notes need to be clear and = phrased in a <BR>way to indicate pulse and response to form, and at a tempo that will = allow <BR>for articulation and breathing, rather than being played in a way = similar to <BR>rolling a ball down a hill. &nbsp;&nbsp;I think there really needs to = be some give and <BR>take in this section to keep the listener from being at first = overwhelmed <BR>with the excitement and then irritated with the force of motion. = &nbsp;I would <BR>really avoid playing this section at virtuoso break-neck speed. = &nbsp;The harmonic <BR>structure is typical Mendelssohn elegance and is lost in a rush. = &nbsp;At the <BR>conclusion of the third section, at the pedal solo, the ritard should = be <BR>carefully planned so that the tempo I is not reached too soon. &nbsp;I = do not slow <BR>this more than the tempo I. &nbsp;&nbsp;The repeat of the opening = section I do at the <BR>indicated 72/q (which is a bit faster than I began, but the tempo at = which I <BR>concluded the first section). <BR> <BR>The Andante tranquillo I play a bit slower than indicated, preferring = a more <BR>tranquil 66/q than the indicated 76/q which I consider to be more = dance-like, <BR>and hardly tranquil. &nbsp;&nbsp;It's a very beautiful conclusion and = I don't think it <BR>should be rushed. &nbsp;&nbsp;Registration here varies greatly from = celestes, to unison <BR>strings and octave flutes, to my favorite, an 8' Principal with = tremolo. <BR> <BR>Again, I'm with Scott in hearing this piece as "grand, broad and = elegant'. &nbsp; <BR>Any hurrying of this piece greatly compromises this excuisite = elegance. <BR> <BR>This is one place where I like to use a very large solo reed. = &nbsp;After all, <BR>this piece was originally conceived as a wedding march. = &nbsp;&nbsp;The opening section <BR>I play on straight plenum. &nbsp;&nbsp;After the solo beginning at = measure 8, I like to <BR>add Swell reeds with the box closed, gradually opening the box for the =   <BR>subsequent 7 measures and then adding the Swell mixture. = &nbsp;&nbsp;For the fugue <BR>section, I retire the Swell mixture and sub and octave reeds, and = closing the <BR>Swell box. &nbsp;&nbsp;Depending upon the strength of the Great, I use = the mixture, but <BR>prefer to omit it until the 16th notes begin at section 3. &nbsp;Sub = and octave <BR>reeds are added in the course of that section, adding the pedal reeds = 14 <BR>measures before the conclusion of that section, and the Great reeds = and Great <BR>to Pedal 4 measures before the conclusion of the section (at the pedal = solo). <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;At the beginning of the return to the beginning statement, = I retire the <BR>Great reeds. &nbsp;&nbsp;Either moving to the Swell or closing the = Swell box are <BR>options for the indicated manual change to Clavier II. &nbsp;&nbsp;I = bring the Great <BR>reeds back on for the concluding 5-1/2 measures. &nbsp;The ritard at = this point is <BR>a grand one and is accented by emphasizing the antiphonal style = phrasing of <BR>the upper vs lower voices. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SCRIPT" FACE=3D"Comic Sans MS" LANG=3D"0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_f6.b696134.285bfdf8_boundary--  
(back) Subject: harpsichord donation (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:58:33 -0700   I found out tonight at the church barbeque that I have a donor for a harpsichord.   Now, I've been out of the harpsichord circuit since the 1970s, so I don't know who's building, and/or what.   I want a fairly aggressive German-type instrument, mostly for continuo, 2-manual, 16-8 on the bottom and 8-4 on the top, probably with foot stops and coupler (purists, don't gag) (grin). What I PRINCIPALLY want is the most STABLE instrument that will require the least tuning, quilling and general maintenance, as I'm no longer able to do it myself.   Suggestions? Comments?   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach