PipeChat Digest #2165 - Friday, June 22, 2001
 
Hello and question
  by "BridgewaterUMC Director of Music" <bridgewatermusic@hotmail.c
Re: Hello and question
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Hello and question
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Hello and question
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
in praise of small organs and Organ Historical Society (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Organ MIDIfication, Saint Sulpice and Virgil Fox
  by "Matt Steinkraus" <hat77@operamail.com>
in fairness to Ahlborn/Galanti
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Pipes for sale
  by "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net>
Re: in praise of small organs and OHS
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: in praise of small organs and OHS
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
DOING YOUR HOMEWORK (was -- Re: in praise of small organs and OHS)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: DOING YOUR HOMEWORK and History as a perspective!
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: DOING YOUR HOMEWORK and History as a perspective!
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
another aspect of completion bonds
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
new Rodgers organ
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Hello and question
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
 

(back) Subject: Hello and question From: "BridgewaterUMC Director of Music" <bridgewatermusic@hotmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:48:10 -0400   Greetings to all on the list. As a way of introduction, I am the newly appointed Organist and Director of Music at Bridgewater United Methodist Church, Bridgewater NJ. Its a fine church with a wonderful history of = fine music making.   Im facing my first crisis, and need some information. The church = purchased a Ahlborn Galanti Organ from another church about 8 years ago. It appears =   to be about 15 years in age. Id appreciate anyone sharing their experince =   with this make of organ from this generation. Its a Preluadium III I believe. It has begun to fail tonally and has a multitude of mechanical problems. Im trying to determine what the lifespan of these organs are = for an organ committee. Any information you can provide will be of help.   Thanks much   Craig Kesner   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Hello and question From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:54:35 EDT   Hello Craig:   The instrument is obviously in this condition from lack of maintenence. A Preludium III with care should last many years, Pipe organs need attention often, so also your Ahlborn/Galanti. Service personell need to be called when things go wrong right away. When problems multiply and go unserviced it'd not time to kick the console, it's time to get things fixed. All organs digital, pipe need to be fixed from time to time, no matter what the salesman told the church.   Key contacts cleaned, blown bulbs changed, clean the dust out of the console, remove paper clips wedged in strange places. Paper clips are wonderful things, but they don't need to become part of your organ, they cause shorts, and other possible damage such as runs. A run is for example play F# and G plays with it. A paper clip has worked it's way onto a key contact. Amps. need to be serviced as components decay. For all the hype about digital samples, the wave form still needs to be transformed to analog.   I hope this helps,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Hello and question From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:59:17 EDT   How long did your last clock radio last?  
(back) Subject: Re: Hello and question From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:38:16 -0700   It's headed for the last round-up ... their electronic components are = NOTORIOUS bottom-feeders ... or at least they WERE when that organ was made. Back = then, twenty years' lifespan was the mountains of the moon for MOST electronic organs.   If there's space for a pipe organ, "experienced" pipe organs can be had = from Organ Clearing House   http://www.organclearinghouse.com/   for a fraction of the cost of a new one, and you're in the part of the = country where the majority of them are located. They have organs of all kinds ... tracker, electric, neo-baroque, American Classic, romantic, etc. etc. etc.   If there ISN'T room for a pipe organ, Allen, Rodgers, Britson, Makin, = Johannus, Baldwin, etc. ALL have a pretty decent SOUND. Allen has the best service network and parts support, in my opinion. THEY still support Allens built = in the 1940s (!).   I'D look at Copeman Hart from England:   http://www.copemanhart.co.uk/   The American rep is:   COPEMAN HART - America Senior Consultant: George W Bayley Tel Toll Free 1800 773 4858 Fax Toll Free 1800 773 4858 Email CopemanHartUS@aol.com   They don't have a lot of instruments in this country yet, but I think = there's a pipe/digital combo someplace near you.   IF you get an electronic organ, spend your money on speakers and amps ... double, triple or even quadruple the complement that "comes with" from the factory. Chamber 'em if possible; make SURE none are aimed DIRECTLY at the congregation; antiphonal speakers help spread the sound around and reduce = the "blast effect" from having ALL the sound come from ONE place.   Good luck!   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach     BridgewaterUMC Director of Music wrote:   > Greetings to all on the list. As a way of introduction, I am the newly > appointed Organist and Director of Music at Bridgewater United Methodist > Church, Bridgewater NJ. Its a fine church with a wonderful history of = fine > music making. > > Im facing my first crisis, and need some information. The church = purchased > a Ahlborn Galanti Organ from another church about 8 years ago. It = appears > to be about 15 years in age. Id appreciate anyone sharing their = experince > with this make of organ from this generation. Its a Preluadium III I > believe. It has begun to fail tonally and has a multitude of mechanical > problems. Im trying to determine what the lifespan of these organs are = for > an organ committee. Any information you can provide will be of help. > > Thanks much > > Craig Kesner > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: in praise of small organs and Organ Historical Society (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:05:28 -0700   If you're NOT a member of the Organ Historical Society, now would be a good time to join ... they're about to commence their annual convention in North Carolina ... they will be seeing some STUNNING organs, and they ALWAYS put out a SUPER convention book (many pics and stoplists), which goes to all the members.   http://www.organsociety.org/html/site/site_frame.html   I can't get to the convention this year, but I've heard many 19th century organs in my wanderings, and what ALWAYS strikes me is the VERSATILITY of even the SMALLEST *good* ones (and the *bad* ones usually have been tinkered with).   They have many things going for them, of course ... placement, encasement, tracker action, slider windchests, low wind-pressure, etc. etc. etc., but the main thing is VOICING ... single 8' stops RICH in harmonic development and color ... most 19th century flutes are a REVELATION to hear; principal choruses consisting of 8-4-2, or even just 8-4 that DON'T require a mixture for brilliance, etc.   Their sister organization, Organ Clearing House   http://www.organclearinghouse.com/   has many such instruments available for recycling at a fraction of the cost of a new instrument, particularly if you're located in the East or Midwest, though many New England organs have travelled to the Seattle area and elsewhere.   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach      
(back) Subject: Organ MIDIfication, Saint Sulpice and Virgil Fox From: "Matt Steinkraus" <hat77@operamail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:21:28 -0400   Okay, I just got back from europe. I saw St. Sulpice and Notre Dame = amongst other things. Very impressive, makes me want to play the organ more than ever. Thanks for all the suggestions on the "Historical Fingerings" and = easy bach thread, they were helpful. I just got the new book "Virgil Fox: The Dish" in the mail and read it. It's a decent piece of work for any Fox = fans (people seem to be at the fringes on that issue). Anyway, my primary = question is about making a MIDI addition to my organ. I have a Conn two manual = right now, which I would consider midifying, but I'm also interested in buying = an old unused pipe console and midifying that. Anyway, I looked into this a couple of months ago, and found two companies that do it, one that sends people to your home to do a consultation, and another that sold = do-it-yourself parts. I'm primarily interested in the latter, as I'm pretty handy with electronic stuff and have a very tight budget. Anyway, if anyone could provide me with some information or links about this kind of stuff, I = would be much obliged.   Thanks, Matt   ------------------------------------------- The Fastest Browser on Earth now for FREE!! Download Opera 5 for Windows now! Get it at http://www.opera.com/download/ -------------------------------------------    
(back) Subject: in fairness to Ahlborn/Galanti From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:36:14 -0700   Friend Ron has a VERY credible NEWER Ahlborn/Galanti sound module attached to his very modest pipe organ at St. Mary's-By-The-Sea RC Church in Huntington Beach, CA; and they were MOST helpful to me when I thought the only way to get a new organ was going to be to put new electronics into my old Hammond/Suzuki console shell (to keep the donor of the Hammond happy).   What Ron says about older electronic organs is true, as far as it goes; and I've revived some real BEASTS over the years (including a Minshall-Estey to use as a small choir organ for chant accompaniments), BUT ... there has to be something THERE to revive in the FIRST place, AND parts become a REAL issue as various models go out of production ... it's my understanding that seven years' parts support is industry standard, EXCEPT for Allen, because of the inventory tax.   Matt, that might answer your question as well, as far as new innards for your Conn.   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach    
(back) Subject: Pipes for sale From: "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:43:16 -0500   Sorry for the cross posting,   just to let you know that I have just put a beautiful stopped diap. rank = up for sale on Ebay. If you want to consider bidding it is listed as:   4' Stopped Diapason - 49 pipes   the listing will probably not show up until tonight or tomorrow   seller is "highnote@mhtc.net"   thanks Robert    
(back) Subject: Re: in praise of small organs and OHS From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:51:01 EDT   Remember, also, that some of the better pipe organ builders also serve as brokers for fine nineteenth and twentieth century vintage pipe organs. Builders who specialize in the conservation of pipe organs as significant works of art are often excellent sources of redundant pipe organs, and = work with both the client and the church without incurring storage and = middleman fees.   Investigating ALL options is the answer here. Take your blinders, off, folks, and look around you, ask questions, contact reputable builders, and =   seek multiple opinions before proceeding. Intelligent questions will separate the good practitioners from the bad, if you are persistent = enough. Every month, politics and closed minds contribute to the destruction of historic organs in America. If we are serious, it is within our power to = do something about it.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: in praise of small organs and OHS From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:02:51 EDT   Hi List:   Does anyone know what happened to the four manual E.M. Skinner in St. John's Episcopal Church, Roanoke, VA. I played it in 1985, and I understand they replaced it with a new organ (Tracker). This was a fun organ to play, and perfect for an Anglican service, or anyother for that matter.   This was a significant organ!   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: DOING YOUR HOMEWORK (was -- Re: in praise of small organs and OHS) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:22:51 -0700   Hurray (as usual) for Sebastian!   *I* thought *I* knew what *I* was doing (after fifty years and dozens of consultations, rescues and restorations), and *I* very nearly got nipped = in the posterior at the start of *my* current project.   Here's an aspect that some may not have thought of: most good small shops = today are built around one person: the master builder/voicer. If something = happens to HIM, completion of the projects at hand might be in serious jeopardy, = and/or be tied up in wills, probates, liens, etc. for a very long time.   I'm just now beginning to sort through the tangle of completion bonds, = escrow accounts, etc., but the AIO article that David Scribner sent me had a = novel idea (to me, anyway) ... have the CHURCH take out a TERM life (and disability) insurance policy on the master builder, enough to cover the cost of having = the organ completed by someone else if the master builder should fall ill or = die.   The article also advised the church to track all payments to suppliers, = and ascertain that goods are actually delivered (and paid for) ... THAT'S a = tall order, particularly if the builder isn't local ... and to have written = into the contract that the work and goods to date become the property of the church = if the builder defaults for any reason.   Anybody have any thoughts?   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > Remember, also, that some of the better pipe organ builders also serve = as > brokers for fine nineteenth and twentieth century vintage pipe organs. > Builders who specialize in the conservation of pipe organs as = significant > works of art are often excellent sources of redundant pipe organs, and = work > with both the client and the church without incurring storage and = middleman > fees. > > Investigating ALL options is the answer here. Take your blinders, off, > folks, and look around you, ask questions, contact reputable builders, = and > seek multiple opinions before proceeding. Intelligent questions will > separate the good practitioners from the bad, if you are persistent = enough. > Every month, politics and closed minds contribute to the destruction of > historic organs in America. If we are serious, it is within our power = to do > something about it. > > Sebastian Matthaus Gluck > New York City > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: DOING YOUR HOMEWORK and History as a perspective! From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:32:31 EDT   Hi Bud:   What you have said looks good on paper, completion bonds, insurance policies etc. The only thing is builders big and small have a tendency to shy away form this for this reason: It adds to the cost of the total contract. Completion bonds can run easily to $30,000 or more.   Several builders have defaulted recently, and other builders by arrangement have picked up that contract to complete the work as far as the residual money goes. Defaults occur usually to under bidding to get work in the first place. Midmer-Losch and the Atlantic City Auditorium come to mind, Murray Harris and the Wanamacker core organ also. It happened to Aeolian Skinner and GDH, and later in the closing of the factory forever during the Sipe insident. Moller's 205 rank Baptist organ. The list is endless. There are some builders still marginally in business, who have closed their doors a few times to go chapter 11.   I suppose under bidding is an ego thing, the church loves it until it becomes impossible to deliver the organ as contracted for without making cuts. GDH under bid the Salt Lake organ according to the Charles Callahan book The American Classic Organ a History in Letters, by $20,000. He bid according to accounts in the letters $90,000 in 1947. He had to go begging for the rest just to cover costs. Completion bonds just add fuel to the fire. In GDH's case there was absolutely no profit, and could have been a big loss. You don't stay in business long doing things like that. E.M. Skinner also was stung several times doing the same thing. These are big, well known, and alas Companies no longer in business. Others have of necessity used refurbished chests and pipes in order to save their skin. Bottom line nobody is getting rich, and some barely make enough profit to live.   The smart ones who want to stay in business, often walk away, and starve knowing that the under bidders will have a backlog of work, and they can guarantee fairly rapid delivery so they get the next job at a small profit. The old habit of builders bad mouthing each other didn't help the situation either. It has a tendency to backfire in purchaser confidence. The worse the situation got the backstabbing intensified. This is one business where there just aren't any cheap bargains, and when that's realized, things will go much smoother.   From my long term observations,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: DOING YOUR HOMEWORK and History as a perspective! From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:56:42 -0700       RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:   > Hi Bud: > > What you have said looks good on paper, completion bonds, > insurance policies etc. The only thing is builders big and small > have a tendency to shy away form this for this reason: It adds > to the cost of the total contract. Completion bonds can run easily > to $30,000 or more. >   $30K doesn't strike me as unreasonable ... we spent that much in construction change orders for the organ-loft (since we acquired the original Moller AFTER the blueprints had already gone out for construction bids), the organ-builder's billable consultation hours with the architect = to develop the revised plans, and the architect's billable hours to do the revised drawings.   It would be FAR better to spend $30K for a completion bond (even if the CHURCH has to buy it), and/or whatever a short-term life/disability insurance policy on the master builder for the total amount of the = contract would cost, rather than to lose even a portion of $250K (the approximate cost of our organ) ... MOST contracts are for considerably MORE ... a million dollars and UP ... not to mention the aggravation of having to = start over again from square one, if indeed (in our case) one could recover the Moller pipes and console, and whatever new work had been completed from a defaulting builder.   The Notre Dame Sisters in Mankato come to mind ... they lost MOST of their organ funds when Moller went under ... LUCKILY, they were able to acquire = a FAR BETTER organ (the Johnson) relatively cheaply. Some churches weren't = so lucky ...   I would think the Moller and Aeolian-Skinner debacles would ENCOURAGE = *some* kind of insurance, rather than the other way around.   Reuter's alliance with Allen makes ONE good point: pipe organ builders = need an aggressive SALES FORCE (grin), and SOME way to rein in costs, but = that's another topic (grin).   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach    
(back) Subject: another aspect of completion bonds From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 14:03:02 -0700   One thing I didn't mention that was in the article: completion bonds ARE a problem as presently written, because the INSURANCE COMPANY, not the CHURCH makes the decision as to HOW the organ is to be completed, and by WHOM, if there's a default.   That means that a pencil-pusher could accept the low bid from Joe Schmoe the Organ Cobbler with absolutely NO knowledge of the real consequences, and the church would be stuck with the results.   I like the idea of life and disability insurance better, but of course that doesn't cover OTHER eventualities like fire, flood, other acts of God, or bankruptcy.   Question: don't the BUILDERS carry insurance for some of the above?   It just puts my knickers ALL in a twist to ask the church (MY church) to put that much money on the line without some REAL surety in return, 'cause it's MY decision to make regarding the choice of builders, and guess who it's gonna come back on if it turns out to be a disaster (grin)?   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach    
(back) Subject: new Rodgers organ From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:06:02 -0400   a local parish just finalized their order for a new organ. The organist = gave me the specs, and I thought you'd all like to see this. What an organ!!!   Rodgers 4-manual Organ 1095 Specification Custom Design Series 105 Speaking Stops 139 Ranks 2 Percussions   GREAT (Manual II) Sub Principal 16 Diapason 8 Principal 8 Flute Harmonique 8 Rohrflote 8 Gemshorn 8 Octave 4 Spitzflote 4 Quinte 2 2/3 Super Octave 2 Waldflote 2 Terz 1 3/5 Fourniture IV Scharf IV Double Trumpet 16 Trumpet 8 Clairon 4 Great 16 Great Unison Off Great 4 Tremulant   SWELL (Manual III) Bourdon Doux 16 Geigen Principal 8 Bourdon 8 Viole de Gambe 8 Gambe Celeste 8 Muted Viols II 8 Flute Celeste II 8 Octave 4 Unda Maris II 4 Nazard 2 2/3 Flute a Bec 2 Tierce 1 3/5 Plein Jeu IV Cymbale IV Contra Basson 16 Trompette 8 Hautbois 8 Voix Humaine 8 (mezzo-piano) Voix Humaine 8 (mezzo-forte) Clairon 4 Swell 16 Swell Unison Off Swell 4 Tremulant   CHOIR (Manual I) Quintade 16 Concert Flute 8 Viola Pomposa 8 Viola Celeste 8 Erzahler Celeste II 8 Fugara 4 Lieblichflote 4 Sesquialtera II 2 2/3 Flautino 2 Rauschquinte IV Rankett 16 Krummhorn 8 Musette 4 Choir 16 Choir Unison Off Choir 4 Harp Tremulant   POSITIV (Manual I) Prestant 8 Holzgedackt 8 Prinzipal 4 Koppelflote 4 Oktav 2 Quintflote 1 1/3 Sifflote 1 Zimbel IV Positiv 16 Positiv Unison Off Positiv 4 Tremulant   SOLO (Manual IV) Doppelflote 8 Violoncello 8 Cello Celeste 8 Orchestral Flute 4 Cornet V Grand Jeu VII Bombarde 16 Corno di Bassetto 16 Tuba Mirabilis 8 Trompette Harmonique 8 French Horn 8 English Horn 8 Clairon Harmonique 4 Solo 16 Solo Unison Off Solo 4 Chimes Tremulant   ECHO (Antiphonal, Manual IV) Cor de Nuit 8 Voix Seraphique II 8 Voix des Anges II 8 Vox Humana 8 Major Trumpet 8 Echo 16 Echo Unison Off Echo 4 Tremulant Echo on III Echo on II Echo on I   PEDAL Contra Principal 32 Contre Violone 32 Contre Bourdon 32 Major Bass 16 Principal 16 Subbass 16 Violone 16 Erzahler 16 Bourdon Doux 16 Octave 8 Violoncello 8 Gedackt 8 Stillflote 8 Choralbass 4 Nachthorn 4 Rohrpfeife 2 Mixture V Grande Cornet V 32 Contre Bombarde 32 Contre Basson 32 Bombarde 16 Pasaune 16 Basson 16 Trompette 8 Clairon 4 Rohrschalmei 4   Great to Pedal 8-4 Swell to Pedal 8-4 Choir to Pedal 8-4 Positiv to Pedal 8-4 Solo to Pedal 8-4 Echo to Pedal 8-4   Swell to Great 16-8-4 Choir to Great 16-8-4 Positiv to Great 16-8-4 Solo to Great 16-8-4   Swell to Choir 16-8-4 Positiv Off Choir 16-8-4 Solo to Choir 16-8-4   Choir to Swell 16-8-4 Solo to Swell 16-8-4   Positiv to Solo 16-8-4   THUMB PISTONS Generals 1-14 Great Divisionals 1-6 Swell Divisionals 1-6 Choir Divisionals 1-6 Solo Divisionals 1-6 Echo Divisionals 1-4 General Cancel Memory Levels M1-M6 Set Tutti I Tutti II Great to Pedal Reversible Swell to Pedal Reversible Choir to Pedal Reversible Positiv to Pedal Reversible Solo to Pedal Reversible Swell to Great Reversible Choir to Great Reversible Solo to Great Reversible Positiv to Great Reversible Solo to Swell Reversible Choir/Great Transfer MIDI/Great A MIDI/Great B MIDI/Swell A MIDI/Swell B MIDI/Choir MIDI/Solo MIDI/Pedal Melody from Swell Melody from Solo Bass Great/Pedal Enclosed (with Choir) Positiv Enclosed (with Choir) Major Trumpet Enclosed (with Solo) Choir to Swell Expression Echo to Swell Expression All Swells to Swell Expression Zimbelstern Orchestral Crescendo Flute Tremulant II   TOE PISTONS Generals 1-14 Pedal Divisionals 1-6 Tutti I Tutti II Contra Principal 32 Reversible Contre Bombarde 32 Reversible Contre Violone 32 Reversible Contre Bourdon 32 Reversible Contre Basson 32 Reversible Great to Pedal Swell to Pedal Choir to Pedal Zimberstern   MANUALS 61 note x 4,Ivora naturals with Ebony sharps 32-note Pedal Clavier to AGO specifications   CONSOLE ACCESSORIES Swell Expression Pedal Choir Expression Pedal with MIDI Sustain Switch Solo/Echo Expression Pedal Register Crescendo Pedal Transposer (+/- 4 semitone) Master Tuning Control (+/- 1/2 semitone) Temperamant Selector (8 temperaments) Personal Memory Card Combination Memory Enhancement System Wind Stabilizer Control Console Menu Display with Select and Adjust Controls MIDI In/Out/Thru MIDI Sequencer In/Out Stereo Auxiliary Audio Inputs Lighted Acrylic Music Desk Pedal Lamps Console Lamp Dimmer Locking Rolltop Lift-Lid Bench 36 Audio Channels   DIMENSIONS AND WEIGHT 57" height 74" width 47" depth without pedals, 64" deep with AGO pedalboard Console weight: 1000 Lbs, maximum (lighted) 1100 Lbs, maximum (moving)           OrganChat, the Friendly List ---   For moderator service, mailto:organchat-owner@yahoogroups.com   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/          
(back) Subject: Re: Hello and question From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 07:58:24 +0800   Thirty years and still going strong. B.E.   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > > How long did your last clock radio last? >