PipeChat Digest #1880 - Monday, March 12, 2001
 
Re: mixtures
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
RE: mixtures
  by "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk>
Re: mixtures
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: mixtures
  by <CdyVanpool@aol.com>
Re: mixtures
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: A question of priorities
  by <JKVDP@aol.com>
Irwin dictionary
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
Re: mixtures
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
New to List
  by "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com>
Re: A Question of Priorities
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: A question of priorities
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: A question of priorities?
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Abbreviations
  by "George Lawn" <sandlawn@bayou.com>
Re: A question of priorities
  by "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:47:30 EST     --part1_105.113b7a.27dd76a2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/12/01 12:24:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, ascott@epix.net writes:     > I couldn't disagree with you more. Mixtures ARE the organ. Whenever I > look at an organ specification, I look for the Mixtures first. Most > British and American organs up to recently were pretty dull sounding > organs, no matter how big or loud. I have made it a point to listen to a > lot of different organs in France and Holland. The Dutch are VERY big on > Mixtures in even their smallest organs. I was particularly interested in > Kampen, Bolsward and Gouda. Mixtures galore. The result is a wonderful > brilliance that crowns the Full organ with or without reeds. French > organs in the 18th and 19th Century as well as the new ones in Canada ( > not Casavant) and France have wonderful Mixtures. >   I think the examples you site are incongruous. Not only are the Dutch and =   French big on mixtures, but they are also big on great acoustics, which = makes a huge difference. You compare this to British and American organs (until =   recently) which is accurate, except that these organ were dull, but not because of their lack of mixtures. Many of these organs that did have mixtures remained dull. If you go back farther and hear some of the = smaller 19th century American instruments, dull does not describe them. As well, =   listen to some of the 19th century American instrument WITH mixtures and = you will find these instruments brilliant and very exciting, with our without their mixtures. These builders knew how to build mixtures for American acoustics.   The tide is now turning and many American builders have learned to build appropriate mixtures. Several builders who have adjusted well to = American rooms are Karl Wilhelm, Noack, Fowkes, Jaeckel, Pasi, Taylor & Boody, and Visser. My primary experience with the previously mentions is with = Wilhelm, Pasi and Visser, but mainly Visser. Each Sunday I am impressed with the =   balance and intensity of the three manual mixtures (V, V, and III) on Pieter's organ at Holy Trinity-Gainesville FL. They work wonderfully and = I have heard no negative remarks about them from parishioners (even the grey/blue or no-haired ones!). The organ is very full and broad, the = reeds are a bit louder than I prefer, but the mixtures fit perfectly. There = are other builders who have mastered the mixtures, but space and memory = prohibit mentioning all.   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_105.113b7a.27dd76a2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/12/01 12:24:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, ascott@epix.net <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I couldn't = disagree with you more. Mixtures ARE the organ. Whenever I <BR>look at an organ specification, I look for the Mixtures first. Most <BR>British and American organs up to recently were pretty dull sounding <BR>organs, no matter how big or loud. I have made it a point to listen to = a <BR>lot of different organs in France and Holland. The Dutch are VERY big = on <BR>Mixtures in even their smallest organs. I was particularly interested = in <BR>Kampen, Bolsward and Gouda. Mixtures galore. The result is a wonderful <BR>brilliance that crowns the Full organ with or without reeds. French <BR>organs in the 18th and 19th Century as well as the new ones in Canada = ( <BR>not Casavant) and France have wonderful Mixtures. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>I think the examples you site are incongruous. &nbsp;Not only are the = Dutch and <BR>French big on mixtures, but they are also big on great acoustics, = which makes <BR>a huge difference. &nbsp;You compare this to British and American organs (until <BR>recently) which is accurate, except that these organ were dull, but = not <BR>because of their lack of mixtures. &nbsp;Many of these organs that did = have <BR>mixtures remained dull. &nbsp;&nbsp;If you go back farther and hear = some of the smaller <BR>19th century American instruments, dull does not describe them. = &nbsp;&nbsp;As well, <BR>listen to some of the 19th century American instrument WITH mixtures = and you <BR>will find these instruments brilliant and very exciting, with our = without <BR>their mixtures. &nbsp;&nbsp;These builders knew how to build mixtures = for American <BR>acoustics. <BR> <BR>The tide is now turning and many American builders have learned to = build <BR>appropriate mixtures. &nbsp;&nbsp;Several builders who have adjusted = well to American <BR>rooms are Karl Wilhelm, Noack, Fowkes, Jaeckel, Pasi, Taylor &amp; = Boody, and <BR>Visser. &nbsp;&nbsp;My primary experience with the previously mentions = is with Wilhelm, <BR>Pasi and Visser, but mainly Visser. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Each Sunday I am = impressed with the <BR>balance and intensity of the three manual mixtures (V, V, and III) on <BR>Pieter's organ at Holy Trinity-Gainesville FL. &nbsp;&nbsp;They work = wonderfully and I <BR>have heard no negative remarks about them from parishioners (even the <BR>grey/blue or no-haired ones!). &nbsp;&nbsp;The organ is very full and = broad, the reeds <BR>are a bit louder than I prefer, but the mixtures fit perfectly. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;There are <BR>other builders who have mastered the mixtures, but space and memory = prohibit <BR>mentioning all. <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_105.113b7a.27dd76a2_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: mixtures From: "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:48:29 -0000   An interesting slant on the mixture debate -   Harrison & Harrison included in a good number of their organs in the first half of the 20th century, a Harmonics stop - normally 17:19:b21:22   Some work exceptionally well, others not so. Not many exist now, most = having been redistributed.   Regards   Andrew Caskie    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:23:10 -0800     --------------702DE956732669A873E615B7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit         > In a message dated 3/12/01 12:24:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, > ascott@epix.net > writes: > >> I couldn't disagree with you more. Mixtures ARE the organ. >   I think it's instructive that "stops" were INVENTED to STOP THE MIXTURES (grin), if you look at the history of the medieval Blokwerk and how it came to be divided when sliders were invented.   Oh, I'll admit I'm taking an extreme position just to play devil's advocate ... the Brombaugh in Toledo, OH has a WONDERFUL *ten* rank mixture on the Great of a small two-manual organ in a smallish church. But it enjoys good placement in what I recall was at least a decent room, if not terribly reverberant.   But Bruce is right again when he cites 19th century American builders .... THEY conquered how to voice in acoustically dry rooms, and it isn't rocket science: strengthen the bass and the 8's, and REIN IN THE TREBLES. If you look at the stoplists for stock model "catalog" organs, the mixture usually comes on the model AFTER the model with the Great Trumpet, not before it. And when it IS present, it's usually SOFTER than the Fifteenth, so that there's no great shock when it comes on.   There's simply no comparing most European churches with most American churches ... for instance, St. Sulpice in Paris is a PARISH CHURCH ... it's larger than most CATHEDRALS in this country. Nor do any of the historic churches have carpet or other sound-deadening materials. St. Mark's in Venice isn't large, by European standards, but it has FIVE seconds reverberation. St. Thomas in Leipzig is unusual in that it DOESN'T have particularly live OR particularly good acoustics, though we don't know if that was the case in Bach's time, since the west end has been rebuilt and changed.   So ... it doesn't make sense to transfer European mixture composition, scaling and voicing techniques (of WHATEVER country) to our smaller, acoustically dry churches. Nor does it WORK ... mixtures suffer from a tarnished reputation in the U.S. because some of the early Organ Reform Movement builders tried to do just that; and of course the European imports were built AS IF they were intended for European churches, for the most part ... at least until the more savvy builders caught on ... Walcker never did (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   --------------702DE956732669A873E615B7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> &nbsp; <br>&nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>In = a message dated 3/12/01 12:24:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, ascott@epix.net</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>writes:</font></font> <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font = face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>I couldn't disagree with you more. Mixtures ARE the = organ.</font></font></blockquote> </blockquote>   <p><br>I think it's instructive that "stops" were INVENTED to STOP THE MIXTURES (grin), if you look at the history of the medieval Blokwerk and how it came to be divided when sliders were invented. <p>Oh, I'll admit I'm taking an extreme position just to play devil's = advocate .... the Brombaugh in Toledo, OH has a WONDERFUL *ten* rank mixture on the Great of a small two-manual organ in a smallish church. But it enjoys good placement in what I recall was at least a decent room, if not terribly reverberant. <p>But Bruce is right again when he cites 19th century American builders .... THEY conquered how to voice in acoustically dry rooms, and it isn't rocket science: strengthen the bass and the 8's, and REIN IN THE TREBLES. If you look at the stoplists for stock model "catalog" organs, the mixture usually comes on the model AFTER the model with the Great Trumpet, not before it. And when it IS present, it's usually SOFTER than the Fifteenth, so that there's no great shock when it comes on. <p>There's simply no comparing most European churches with most American churches ... for instance, St. Sulpice in Paris is a PARISH CHURCH ... it's larger than most CATHEDRALS in this country. Nor do any of the = historic churches have carpet or other sound-deadening materials. St. Mark's in Venice isn't large, by European standards, but it has FIVE seconds = reverberation. St. Thomas in Leipzig is unusual in that it DOESN'T have particularly live OR particularly good acoustics, though we don't know if that was the case in Bach's time, since the west end has been rebuilt and changed. <p>So ... it doesn't make sense to transfer European mixture composition, scaling and voicing techniques (of WHATEVER country) to our smaller, = acoustically dry churches. Nor does it WORK ... mixtures suffer from a tarnished = reputation in the U.S. because some of the early Organ Reform Movement builders tried to do just that; and of course the European imports were built AS IF they were intended for European churches, for the most part ... at least until the more savvy builders caught on ... Walcker never did (grin). <p>Cheers, <p>Bud</html>   --------------702DE956732669A873E615B7--    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <CdyVanpool@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:52:33 EST   Mixtures, IMHO, are only to crown the Principal Chorus, not obliterate it. Mixtures refine the sound. If you want weight... use the reeds. Actually my 12th, on the Great, is enough mixture for hymns.   The church approved the moving of the console to the floor level of the = choir loft, directly in front of the choir. It is amazing how my registrations = have changed. I am using less stops and can really hear. It's like playing a tracker as far as the sound goes. The whole church can tell the difference = in my playing. I can too.   Van Vanpool, organist FUMC Bowie, Texas  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:59:20 -0500   I don't use mixtures very often when accompanying the choir. With an 80-voice SATB choir, plus the congregation singing, the organ somehow becomes lost <G>....which is the way it should be.....just enough to = support the singing.......   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities From: <JKVDP@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:44:16 EST   Jim wrote (Snip) << As organist for a not-so-large UME church >>   What is a UME church? I thought I knew most of the abbreviations, but not =   this one.   Jerry in Seattle  
(back) Subject: Irwin dictionary From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:45:25 -0500   Try Alibris.com.   They offer old, out-of-print books.   Rick    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:52:24 EST     --part1_50.128fd95c.27dd93e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/12/01 1:53:29 AM !!!First Boot!!!, CdyVanpool@aol.com =   writes:     > The church approved the moving of the console to the floor level of the > choir > loft, directly in front of the choir.   Congratulations. You can stop holding your breath now!!! ;-)   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_50.128fd95c.27dd93e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/12/01 1:53:29 AM !!!First Boot!!!, CdyVanpool@aol.com <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The church = approved the moving of the console to the floor level of the <BR>choir <BR>loft, directly in front of the choir. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Congratulations. &nbsp;&nbsp;You can stop holding your breath now!!! = &nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_50.128fd95c.27dd93e8_boundary--  
(back) Subject: New to List From: "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:47:23 -0800 (PST)   Hi-   I am new to this list. Don't know if you all allow beginners here!:-)   Last week I had a life-changing experience. My church organist asked me to help tune the hugh pipe organ in our church. When we were through (2 hours and 45 minutes later) I got to play the organ and the rest is history!   I have wanted to play that organ for a year since I joined this particular church and I got my wish. I commented to the organist that I could not believe it was me making that sound and he said maybe I should take lessons then!   He also told me that I could play the church's organ ANY TIME I WANTED TO. I will probably start lessons this week or next...so here I am!   The organ is a KEATES-Geissler (sp?) and is ll years old. It has five manuals and a GREAT sound!   I know I will have a lot of questions. Here is my first one:   Does anyone know where I can order the organ book, "Majesty and Praise" by John Innes? Thanks.   Looking forward to learning a lot on this list. I might add that I am a piano teacher of 20 plus years so it's not like I have to start at the very beginning!   Cindy   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cindy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: A Question of Priorities From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:23:42 EST   Cremona 502 writes 3/11/01:   >Shame on you! If you are going to be liturgical, at least FOLLOW the = dang >rules. Sundays ARE NOT part of Lent and are still to be celebrated as a =   >"Little Easter." <<   Feeling thoroughly admonished <g>, I reply:   Bruce, you are correct and generally I would agree except - my church has = a (how you say) "appliance" which has only one mixture and a unified chorus reed. My intentions are to scale back somewhat on registrations during = the Sundays in Lent so that there is something left to unbridle on Easter = Sunday. So, in keeping with my theory (although liturgically suspect) I will = reserve these stops until Easter.   Sorry to hear about your bad day. We had just the opposite and it was thrilling. Its the bad ones which make the good ones even more meaningful =   and remembered.   Best wishes,   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:38:08 EST   Jerry in Seattle inquires:     >What is a UME church? I thought I knew most of the abbreviations, but = not >this one.<<   Jerry, it should be UMe, not all upper case, and stands for United = Methodist. It is often seen as UMC. I am just the organist/choir director and not up =   much on Methodist history. In fact, I don't even know what they united = with <g>.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities? From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:43:38 EST     --part1_87.802943a.27ddadfa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/10/2001 7:26:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, caskie@totalise.co.uk writes:     > my own congregation love > (and thrive) on occasional verses completely unaccompanied -- there is = no > choir, yet they stay perfectly in tune and sing their hearts out. Is = this > musical   Dear List: John Bell (of Iona Community fame) has correctly observed that choirs go flat; congregations do not. We frequently have unaccompanied verses in = our rather dry acoustic, and the congregation sings quite well. We also take care to have what I hope are artistic interludes, which may or may not modulate. When I play, I'll take snippets of the hymn tune and weave them =   into the interlude, ALWAYS arriving at an unmistakable entry for the next verse. If the people want to sing, there's nothing I can do to stop them!   Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA   --part1_87.802943a.27ddadfa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/10/2001 7:26:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>caskie@totalise.co.uk writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">my own = congregation love <BR>(and thrive) on occasional verses completely unaccompanied -- there is = no <BR>choir, yet they stay perfectly in tune and sing their hearts out. Is = this <BR>musical</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Dear List: <BR>John Bell (of Iona Community fame) has correctly observed that choirs = go <BR>flat; congregations do not. &nbsp;We frequently have unaccompanied = verses in our <BR>rather dry acoustic, and the congregation sings quite well. &nbsp;We = also take <BR>care to have what I hope are artistic interludes, which may or may not =   <BR>modulate. &nbsp;When I play, I'll take snippets of the hymn tune and = weave them <BR>into the interlude, ALWAYS arriving at an unmistakable entry for the = next <BR>verse. &nbsp;If the people want to sing, there's nothing I can do to = stop them! <BR> <BR>Steven Skinner <BR>Minister of Music <BR>First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant <BR>Erie, PA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_87.802943a.27ddadfa_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Abbreviations From: "George Lawn" <sandlawn@bayou.com> Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:43:51 -0600   Wasn't it when the Methodist united with the United Brethren that formed = the UM church?   Sand   Wurlibird1@aol.com wrote:   > Jerry in Seattle inquires: > > >What is a UME church? I thought I knew most of the abbreviations, but = not > >this one.<< > > Jerry, it should be UMe, not all upper case, and stands for United = Methodist. > It is often seen as UMC. I am just the organist/choir director and not = up > much on Methodist history. In fact, I don't even know what they united = with > <g>. > > Jim > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities From: "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:55:05 -0500   "Mike Gettelman" wrote:   They united with the Congregationals in the late sixties, early = seventies as I recall.   Wurlibird1@aol.com wrote:   > Jerry in Seattle inquires: > > >What is a UME church? I thought I knew most of the abbreviations, but = not > >this one.<< > > Jerry, it should be UMe, not all upper case, and stands for United = Methodist. > It is often seen as UMC. I am just the organist/choir director and not = up > much on Methodist history. In fact, I don't even know what they united = with > <g>. > > Jim > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org