PipeChat Digest #1882 - Tuesday, March 13, 2001
 
Re: mixtures
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
exchangeable pedal-boards
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: mixtures
  by "Thomas H. Cotner" <cotnerpo@brightok.net>
Re: mixtures
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: exchangeable pedal-boards
  by <support@opensystemsorgans.com>
RE: mixtures
  by "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk>
Octaves Graves
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #1881 - 03/12/01
  by <ALamirande@aol.com>
Murray Harris pipes
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
Re: mixtures
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Reginald Foort on TOT
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: mixtures
  by "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net>
Re: mixtures
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: mixtures
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: mixtures
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: mixtures
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: A question of priorities
  by <DRAWKNOB@aol.com>
Re: mixtures
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: A question of priorities
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: mixtures
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:41:57 -0800       Karl Moyer wrote:   > We should not forget how wonderful and successful the mid-century = Hook > mixtures were -- are!! -- when related to the nature of 8', 4' and 2' = tone. > > Successful mixtures make unnecessary and even foolish that horrible > error of so much organ design, the use of super couplers to create > brilliance artificially. Organs without super couplers can then be = scaled > and voiced so as to make the top registers clear, incisive and = BEAUTIFUL, > all the while avoiding the schrieking sounds we got in America in the = 1960's > et al.   Sub and super couplers are needed in small electric action organs for flexibility in accompanying, at least in the kind of service *I* play. No = organ can be made totally foolproof, but it IS possible with electric action to exclude the mixtures from the super couplers. No, they SHOULDN'T be used = INSTEAD of building 2' stops and a mixture.   > Caville-Coll knew that; so did Walcker and Sauer; and so did the > Hooks.   I don't see a functional difference (for the sake of argument) between = calling for the Octaves Graves and playing at the top of the keyboard (as so many = French composers do), and staying down in the middle of the keyboard and drawing = the super coupler.   Yes, I know the INTENTION was different ... drawing the Octaves Graves and playing at the upper end when the manual 16's were already drawn allowed = there to be 16' tone in the ensemble in the top of the keyboard, much the same = as a manual 32' stop on large organs, which is supposed to serve the same = purpose.   > So do a number of modern Ameircan tracker builders whose tone is > bright, lively, clear and still beautiful. > > Thus, I am always thankful for HIGH-pitched mixtures that, however, > blend well with lower pitches on the manual in question. I find it of > doubtful value to put great store in mixtures that soon break back into = the > pitch range already covered by the 2' and soon even the 4' principal = ranks. > The money and the voicing work can be put to much better use with = mixutres > of higher pitch; yet they need not shriek!!!   I disagree. The purpose of mixtures breaking back to the 2 - 4 - 8 pitch = in the top was to strength the fundamental up there, which tends to fade out and = get thin unless the principals are built as I-II rank stops, which John = Brombaugh successfully revived in this country.   I personally think it's not terribly practical to build a pipe above the = top C of a 2' rank. In the discussion about what to do with our Moller rebuild = (which now will be essentially a new organ with revoiced/recycled pipes from the Moller) one builder suggested the alternative of having the 19th, 22nd, = and possibly one or two higher pitches on separate sliders, breaking back at = 2' C, rather than a mixture on one slide. It should be pointed out that's = EXACTLY what Italian organs do, resulting in a MASS of 8' and 4' pipes sounding in the = top of the keyboard. And French mixtures sometimes break back to the 16' harmonic series.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: exchangeable pedal-boards From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:49:43 -0800   I've heard of a few tracker organs built this way ... I'm told it makes the pedal mechanism (and particularly the pedal couplers) unduly complicated. I'm told that in most cases, one pedal-board or the other triumphs, and the other sits in the corner.   Of course, with electric action, it would be easier, but who wants to fool with changing pedal-boards? ... it's enough of a chore to take ours up once a year during Holy Week to CLEAN (grin).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Thomas H. Cotner" <cotnerpo@brightok.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:37:55 -0600       Bob Scarborough wrote:   > > G. Donald Harrison was all too aware of this abuse, and purposely = "dulled" > his principal choruses on the Great to prevent his organs from being > "shrieky" when the supercoupler was in use. This was probably a large > error on his part, and should have been taken care of by proper = "retraining".   Well, he may have on some organs on the east and west coasts, of which I = am not aware, but as to the ones in Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana, on which I worked = with Jimmy Williams and Roy Perry, if there was a Great super coupler (rare) it = was on a "cutout", which turned it (as well as the tremulant, if present) off = whenever the Great mixture was drawn. I cannot think of a single organ which had = "dulled" principal choruses among the ones we did -- and that covers some 15 to 20 instruments.   I still, to this day, install "cutouts" so that ill-trained organists are = unable to ruin an otherwise beautiful chorus with couplers. Bob is absolutely = right in describing the use of couplers for raising or lowering off unison stops so = that they may be used as solo (unison) stops. There are few other uses for = them in a well designed organ with sufficient resources for a particular setting.   Smaller instruments, with incomplete choruses, are another matter = entirely.   Tom Cotner Cotner - Pipe Organs, Martha, Oklahoma    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:59:34 -0400   >Bud wrote:     > >I don't see a functional difference (for the sake of argument) between = calling >for the Octaves Graves and playing at the top of the keyboard (as so >many French >composers do), and staying down in the middle of the keyboard and drawing = the >super coupler. > >Yes, I know the INTENTION was different ... drawing the Octaves Graves = and >playing at the upper end when the manual 16's were already drawn allowed = there >to be 16' tone in the ensemble in the top of the keyboard, much the same = as a >manual 32' stop on large organs, which is supposed to serve the same = purpose.   Huh? This is all new to me. Can you cite some instances where French composers call for the Octaves Graves and playing an octave higher? Apart, that is, from music for the French harmonium.   Randy Runyon organist, Immanuel Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati runyonr@muohio.edu  
(back) Subject: Re: exchangeable pedal-boards From: <support@opensystemsorgans.com> Date: 12 Mar 2001 12:16:27 -0800   On Mon, 12 March 2001, quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:     > Of course, with electric action, it would be easier, but who wants to > fool with changing pedal-boards? ... it's enough of a chore to take ours > up once a year during Holy Week to CLEAN (grin). >   Oh, I agree completely. That's why I suggested it for pedagogical organs = only. Anywhere else, I'd just go, go, go with AGO.   Dick      
(back) Subject: RE: mixtures From: "Andrew Caskie" <caskie@totalise.co.uk> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:25:55 -0000   Yes, some think that they were designed to be used as a "bridge" between = the principal chorus and smooth tromba reeds, but Arthur Harrison always maintained that they were part of an effective chorus. 2 that I can immediately think of are in the Royal Albert Hall, London (1924), and the Caird Hall, Dundee (1923 - H&H's 1st concert organ). The latter certainly = is very effective. The scaling of the flat 21st is slightly smaller than the other ranks.   Regards   Andrew Caskie   At 12:48 AM 3/12/2001 +0000, you wrote: >Harrison & Harrison included in a good number of their organs in the = first >half of the 20th century, a Harmonics stop - normally 17:19:b21:22<snip>   >An example of English logic...line up the harmonics, all in a tidy >row. Fifth, sixth, seventh (!) and eighth. The difference here is that = it >winds up not sounding as a mixture at all, but more (as I think H&H >intended) a bouquet of ranks equally supporting the partials of the >unison. I've only heard one example of this exact stop, and it imparted = a >very "reedy" effect to the flue ensemble, almost making a fine synthetic >trompette. Successful? I'd say so, but it sure was NOT a "mixture", in >the classic sense!    
(back) Subject: Octaves Graves From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:36:01 -0800   I misspoke, slightly ... they don't CALL for playing an octave higher than = WRITTEN, per se ... they just WRITE in the top of the keyboard with the Octaves = Graves drawn (Franck, end of Grand Piece Symphonique, the Widor Toccata, etc.). Mostly = happens at climaxes and/or at the ends of things.   Cheers,   Bud   Randolph Runyon wrote:   > >Bud wrote: > > > > >I don't see a functional difference (for the sake of argument) between = calling > >for the Octaves Graves and playing at the top of the keyboard (as so > >many French > >composers do), and staying down in the middle of the keyboard and = drawing the > >super coupler. > > > >Yes, I know the INTENTION was different ... drawing the Octaves Graves = and > >playing at the upper end when the manual 16's were already drawn = allowed there > >to be 16' tone in the ensemble in the top of the keyboard, much the = same as a > >manual 32' stop on large organs, which is supposed to serve the same = purpose. > > Huh? This is all new to me. Can you cite some instances where > French composers call for the Octaves Graves and playing an octave > higher? Apart, that is, from music for the French harmonium. > > Randy Runyon > organist, Immanuel Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati > runyonr@muohio.edu > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #1881 - 03/12/01 From: <ALamirande@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:50:34 EST     --part1_f6.80e5709.27de9eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   The review of the performance last Thursday by the Cleveland Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, and a crew of top-flight operatic soloists, of Franz =   Schmidt's "Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln" (The Book with Seven Seals) can be =   accessed at:   http://www.cleveland.com/eventsguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/pd/e09orch.ht= ml   A pre-performance analysis of the work and commentary on the composer was published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on March 4th, written by its principal music critic, Donals Rosenberg. This can be accessed at:   http://www.cleveland.com/eventsguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/pd/e04seals.h= tml   Arthur LaMirande   http://mp3.com/arthurlamirande http://www.musicbase.org/D/LAM001.html     --part1_f6.80e5709.27de9eaa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>The review of the = performance last Thursday by the Cleveland Symphony <BR>Orchestra and Chorus, and a crew of top-flight operatic soloists, of = Franz <BR>Schmidt's "Das Buch mit sieben Siegeln" (The Book with Seven Seals) = can be <BR>accessed at: <BR> <BR>http://www.cleveland.com/eventsguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/pd/e09orc= h.html <BR> <BR>A pre-performance analysis of the work and commentary on the composer = was <BR>published in the Cleveland Plain Dealer on March 4th, written by its <BR>principal music critic, Donals Rosenberg. &nbsp;This can be accessed = at: <BR> <BR>http://www.cleveland.com/eventsguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/pd/e04sea= ls.html <BR> <BR>Arthur LaMirande <BR> <BR>http://mp3.com/arthurlamirande <BR>http://www.musicbase.org/D/LAM001.html <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_f6.80e5709.27de9eaa_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Murray Harris pipes From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:56:43 -0600   Do any of you know of an available Murray Harris 8' Diapason from tenor f? We need to replace missing pipes at Tougaloo College in Jackson Miss. It would be great if we could find originals. Roy Redman    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:47:10 +0800   Since when was a 17th a fifth? Bob E.   Bob Scarborough wrote: > > At 12:48 AM 3/12/2001 +0000, you wrote: > >Harrison & Harrison included in a good number of their organs in the = first half of the 20th century, a Harmonics stop - normally = 17:19:b21:22<snip> > An example of English logic...line up the harmonics, all in a tidy > row. Fifth, sixth, seventh (!) and eighth.  
(back) Subject: Reginald Foort on TOT From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:57:11 -0600   Hi all,   Last Friday during Theatre Organ Time there was a Reginald Foort selection =   which was identified as having been played on the Moller in the Pasadena Civic Center. Most of us thought this was an error as we were not really sure whether Reggie ever had a chance to play the organ after in left the Pizza Parlour. Leslie and Gary confirmed that it was an error and that the =   recording was actually an early recording done in the late '30s...which = has now been re-released on CD.   Jon    
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Paul Opel" <popel@sover.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:10:37 -0400   When it is the fifth harmonic, not a 2:3 ratio. Nor has a 19th ever been a sixth of any other kind- the 7th is accidental, that the seventh harmonic makes a musical seventh.   P   >Since when was a 17th a fifth? >Bob E. > >Bob Scarborough wrote: >> >> At 12:48 AM 3/12/2001 +0000, you wrote: >> >Harrison & Harrison included in a good number of their organs in the >>first half of the 20th century, a Harmonics stop - normally >>17:19:b21:22<snip> >> An example of English logic...line up the harmonics, all in a tidy >> row. Fifth, sixth, seventh (!) and eighth. > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org     http://www.sover.net/~popel      
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:22:32 EST     --part1_97.1269c2b6.27dede68_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/12/01 8:08:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, runyonr@muohio.edu =   writes:     > Yes, I know the INTENTION was different ... drawing the Octaves Graves = and > >playing at the upper end when the manual 16's were already drawn = allowed > there > >to be 16' tone in the ensemble in the top of the keyboard, much the = same > as a > >manual 32' stop on large organs, which is supposed to serve the same > purpose. >   I have used an opposite maneuver for playing French music on a non-French designed organ, for instance at the conclusion of the a-minor Franck = chorale or Piece Heroique. I draw the mixtures and the play an octave lower. = It gives a very rich and full result.     Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_97.1269c2b6.27dede68_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/12/01 8:08:59 PM !!!First Boot!!!, runyonr@muohio.edu <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Yes, I know the = INTENTION was different ... drawing the Octaves Graves and <BR>&gt;playing at the upper end when the manual 16's were already drawn = allowed <BR>there <BR>&gt;to be 16' tone in the ensemble in the top of the keyboard, much = the same <BR>as a <BR>&gt;manual 32' stop on large organs, which is supposed to serve the = same <BR>purpose. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>I have used an opposite maneuver for playing French music on a = non-French <BR>designed organ, for instance at the conclusion of the a-minor Franck = chorale <BR>or Piece Heroique. &nbsp;&nbsp;I draw the mixtures and the play an = octave lower. &nbsp;&nbsp;It <BR>gives a very rich and full result. <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_97.1269c2b6.27dede68_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:47:02 -0800 (PST)   You guys are on a somewhat esoteric subject. I have a Swain & Kates = (mostly) unit organ, that along with other stops the Mixture, which repeats more = than normal, is playble (if bottom 1-1/3' *C* is 8') at 8' in the great and = pedal, 4' in the swell, and in addition to 8', it is also playable at 2' in the = great - called Cymbal and totally useless as it screams.   But in our situation, the concept made sense. The swell, really a quasi-positiv, worked (only one octave above unison,) and the mixture, = being enclosed in the chamber adds a wonderful sheen (when played at regular = pitch) to the ensemble. In the rebuild there will be less unification of the = flutes, mutations, etc., but we only have the one mixture. We don't need another = as I rarely see the need for another one. I am getting rid of all mixture unification, except in the great, where rather than have a super coupler, = the "Octave Mixture" stop will substitute.   I really love the freedom I feel as we approach the installation. = Everything is finished except voicing the Tom Anderson Principal, which will be = prevoiced in the builder's shop, but much of the voicing will happen on sight. We will regulate the Mixture and Nasard (a flute/principal hybrid) to this. This instrument in these acoustics will be one of the better ones on the SF Peninsula, which doesn't say much. There are several large Schantz organs, = all nice, but not much personality. After seeing the additions come together, = I'm not sure at all about refining the stoplist till everything is in and we = can see what will be best......But since the organ was nothing special = (although it sounds darn good!) I don't feel that I have to worry about a prior = builder's artictic integrity. If it was the 3/15 1925 Skinner I grew up on, I would = feel obbligated to seek a builder who specialized in Skinner restoration, and = would have access to real Skinner ranks for any additions, or could build a = Skinner 4' Octave, Twelfth, Fifteenth, and V Chorus Mixture. Here it is a work in progress!   Our Oboe goes in before Sunday!!!!   Randy   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Randy Terry Minister of Music, Organist & Choirmaster The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:28:18 EST     --part1_26.1272dec5.27deedd2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Randy, Please let us know when you return to earth after hearing the Tom Anderson =   Principal for the first time. He does wonderful work.   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_26.1272dec5.27deedd2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Randy, <BR>Please let us know when you return to earth after hearing the Tom = Anderson <BR>Principal for the first time. &nbsp;&nbsp;He does wonderful work. <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_26.1272dec5.27deedd2_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:29:02 EST     --part1_21.8a5b6be.27deedfe_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   BTW...   What is your stoplist?   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_21.8a5b6be.27deedfe_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>BTW... <BR> <BR>What is your stoplist? <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_21.8a5b6be.27deedfe_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities From: <DRAWKNOB@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:10:18 EST   In a message dated 3/12/01 1:11:48 PM Central Standard Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << Fortunately, the Southern Baptists just lost Texas...this can ONLY be "a good thing"! >>   Amen Brother!  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:09:36 -0500     >> I don't see a functional difference (for the sake of argument) between >> calling for the Octaves Graves and playing at the top of the keyboard = (as so >> many French composers do), and staying down in the middle of the = keyboard and drawing the super coupler.   There's a big difference! Organ builders fear organists who mis-use super couplers and therefore "cut down" the intensity of tone at the upper end of the manuals. The problem becomes far worse if super couplers are included with 61-note chests or even 68-note chests. Furthermore, the "supers" added above the 61-note top end of the manuals only pertain to 8' and 4' stops, as you can hardly make a pipe much higher than the top pipe = of a 2' stop at top c''''. So super couplers cause builders to taper off = the top of the sound.   How many of us have played Franck's Chorale in a, only to get to the very last note, high c#''', and hear the clarity of the melody disappear because the super coupler does not provide the same sounds on that last melody note as all the other melody notes leading to the climax. Thus, = the climax is ruined because the builder counted on super-couplers for brilliance instead of doing it the right way with pipes.   Sub couplers do not present that problem, thus enabling a builder to scale and voice to the top of the manual the way the great builders have done: Cavaille-Coll, Walcker, Sauer, Ladegast, Willis, mid-century Hooks, etc. What's more, most organists will not abuse sub-couplers nearly so = bad as they do super-couplers.   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: A question of priorities From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:30:03 EST   DesertBob writes:     << Fortunately, the Southern Baptists just lost Texas...this can ONLY be "a good thing"! >>   Not actually, no. The relationship between the Southern Baptist = Convention and Baptist General Convention of Texas has been strained for years. At central issue is the strict fundamentalist stance of the National organization as compared with the more moderate position held by Texas Baptists. There has been no severing of ties with the national = organization but a mini-revolt in terms of money allocations. Texas Baptists chose to divert huge sums of money to Texas Baptist seminaries rather than send it = to Nashville through the Baptist's Cooperative Program.   There have been new Baptist "fellowships" established and some churches = (only a few) have withdrawn from fellowship with the Southern Baptist = Convention. Texas Baptists are sensitive to Baylor University, its crown jewel, and resisted takeover attempts by the national group. Baylor unilaterally restructured its Board of Trustees which literally blocked the national = group from having major influence on the school. But Texas is still within the = SBC fold, uh, today. <g>   There may be Republican's, Democrat's, Tory's and Whig's, but nothing is = more entertaining - and more vicious - than religious politics.   Jim  
(back) Subject: Re: mixtures From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:15:09 -0800   At 07:47 AM 3/13/2001 +0800, you wrote: >Since when was a 17th a fifth?<snip>   It's the fifth harmonic of the unison. It sounds (approximately) two octaves and a third above the fundamental.   DeserTBoB