PipeChat Digest #1899 - Friday, March 16, 2001
 
Re: Organ Voicing
  by "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Philip Moore Workshops & Evensong
  by <AMADPoet@aol.com>
Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Widor was Re: toward a theology of organ recitals
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Information on organ at Calvary Church?
  by "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com>
Re: toward a theology of organ recitals
  by <AMADPoet@aol.com>
Re: playing by ear
  by "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com>
Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue
  by "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com>
Re: Organ Voicing
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Philip Moore Workshops & Evensong
  by "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Tocatta and Fugue
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: playing by ear
  by "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue
  by "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Speaking up
  by "DP" <dpitzer@sonic.net>
Re: playing by ear
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: Speaking up
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Organ Voicing From: "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:20:57 -0500   Replace "paperwork" to read "PIPEWORK in last post----sorry---Mike   mike wrote:   > Hi Ron, > > I believe the Voicer is the most talented musician in the organic > scheme of things. His decisions determine how close an instrument comes = to > sounding as designed, or duplicates a chosen style. It is upon his ear > that falls the responsibility for a successful sounding instrument. But = it > is upon his engineering skill that the paperwork will be left in a = tunable > state when he is finished. The need for the organ to come on to optimum > voice and pitch yet still be close to median adjustment settings is > imperative, requiring careful pre-planning from the producing stage. > Yes sir, I believe the Voicer rules as the ultimate technical = position > on the organ builder's staff, and I am sure he would not waste his time > teaching a student who doesn't know all the basics of organ building, so = I > return to my copy of--The Contemporary American Organ--and study, study, > study---for I too want to be a voicer one day. > > Mike Gettelman > > RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > > Hi Mike: > > > > Voicing is an art! The Barnes book is certainly a good start. Voicing > > can be only really learned by working in the voicing shop with a > > master voicer. There is a rank to rank relationship that develops. > > Salicional 8' and 4' sounds like a brighter string. Put a soft > > open flute or gedackt 8' with the 4' Salicional and you have a > > beautiful soft principal chorus. My question why is this most > > useful combination only available on small unit organs. Salicional 8' > > and a Bourdon 16' in the pedal, beautiful! Voicers make these > > wonderful surprises happen, they are not an accident. Need a > > Quintadena 8' draw a Salicional 8' and a soft fluty Nasard, this is > > surprisingly good, perfect NOT, but in a pinch good enough. > > Good registrations don't require a lot of stops, just a few good > > contrasting ones that blend and somehow become something else. > > > > Ron Severin > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Philip Moore Workshops & Evensong From: <AMADPoet@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:24:13 EST   << Do any of you call this music masculine? Is it gender specific? I think = the singer's comment is sexist rubbish. I'm interested in your thoughts. >>   George-   I've never personally thought of any music as being "masculine" or = "feminine" though these words are used as metaphors for most things in life nowadays. =   Ironically, Clara Schumann's music was often impetuous and driving, just = as much of Marcel Dupre's was lyrical and gentle. I don't know what context = your soprano was speaking in, but perhaps she simply meant that the music had a =   sort of forceful, earthy feel to it, and had no other way to describe it. = Of course, if she was complaining about the fact that all of the composers in =   the program were male, then she needs to either find another profession or =   limit her repertoire, so take heart.   I like the writer Madeleine L'Engle's take on art in general: all art = comes from the divine, and is therefore genderless and universal. Perhaps a bit idealistic, but nice all the same. :>)   Mandy  
(back) Subject: Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:09:14 -0800   At 01:47 AM 3/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >....like the Widor Toccata, Vierne's 1st Symphony finale, Guilmant's 1st >Sonata finale......or something slower like Carillon de = Westminster?<snip>   Carlo...that's not even funny.   dB    
(back) Subject: Re: Widor was Re: toward a theology of organ recitals From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:22:17 -0800   At 01:54 AM 3/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >It seems as if organists choose a tempo according to personal taste more >than other instrumentalists do.<snip>   If there's one thing I'll always berate Virgil Fox for, it's this issue. Some of his ridiculous renderings, notably of Widor's Fifth at double time, were sometimes a really bad joke. Of course, Fox was a ham = of the choicest grade, too, and knew full well the value of spectacle. I've never thought, however, that the music at hand should be as butchered as, in some cases, like Fox did to it. At least SOME of the composer's intent =   should be taken into account! However, at many (most?) other times, he could be simply brilliant.   There's no doubt that Fox was indeed one of the greatest performers on the =   organ in the 20th century. But, at times, what he'd do in the name of "showmanship" would just make me shuffle my feet, look at the floor and shake my head. His numerous vocal barbs aimed at E. Power Biggs during = his "Heavy Organ" conflagrations were in poor taste, also. At least Biggs, when asked of Fox, would respond in polite English manner by simply = rolling his eyes skyward, give a forced little grin, and not say a word.   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: Information on organ at Calvary Church? From: "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:28:18 -0800 (PST)     --- Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> wrote: > At 09:00 PM 3/15/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >Maybe the person who told me about the organ at > >Memorial Pres. can tell me what kind of organ there > >is in Calvary Church in Charlotte, NC?<snip> > > That's the "MegaM=F6ller" 205 ranks, HUGE organ with > everything from 64' > resultants to tibias. M=F6ller's last hurrah before > folding for good. It's > a monumental organ, for certain, but not recorded > enough...yet. > Bob.. thanks for the details on the Calvary organ.   > >There is supposed to be a recital there soon with 4 > organs being > >played. No other details on the recital.<snip> > > Well, three must be e-orgs, then! How tacky. > > >> >He laid a good foundation!!:-)<snip> > > Yup...one huge "God factory" indeed.   Bob--your reply seems a little mean-spirited to me. It was not my dad's intention to build a "God factory" He was and still is not impressed by numbers. I would hope he laid a good Biblical foundation instead of a foundation for a "God factory".       I wish their > musical program was a > little more "open".   In what ways, exactly?     Place seems spookily foreboding > in attitude...but then > again, this is the state of Jesse Helms!   Oh now that is a put-down. Have you ever lived in North Carolina? WHAT does the "spokily foreboding attitude" have to do with Jesse Helms.   I promise I won't put down your state if you don't put down mine. (Not originally from NC but it's a nice place to live.) > > DeserTBoB > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cindy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: toward a theology of organ recitals From: <AMADPoet@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:30:32 EST   In a message dated 3/16/01 1:23:37 AM Central Standard Time, desertbob@rglobal.net writes:   << "dummm de DUM dum! dummm de DUM dum DAAAAAH!" >>   How STRANGE! My sister heard the S.G. Toccata playing on my radio the = other day and said "so THAT'S where that theme comes from!" I gave her a wild = look, shame on me for having no imagination.  
(back) Subject: Re: playing by ear From: "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:32:22 -0800 (PST)   Bob,   I have never heard this explained this way! It makes sense...since I am easily distracted. (ADD)   I guess I will forgive you for putting down NC since you have such a good explanation of this! :-)   So, should I discourage my little students (a few big ones too) from looking at their hands in case something happens in their little brains during the recital?   > ". > Certainly, watching what > the fingers are doing increases distractibility from > the mainly > thought/aural process of "ear" playing or > improvising. To me, it's a good > sign that you've disassociated sight of keys going > down with tone coming > out, which is a good thing. Many youngster (I was >   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cindy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue From: "Cindy Adams" <clavinova98@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:33:53 -0800 (PST)   Carlo...   Are you making fun of me? You know I don't know these pieces!!!   You all get evil after l:00a.m.!!   --- Bob Scarborough <desertbob@rglobal.net> wrote: > At 01:47 AM 3/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >....like the Widor Toccata, Vierne's 1st Symphony > finale, Guilmant's 1st > >Sonata finale......or something slower like > Carillon de Westminster?<snip> > > Carlo...that's not even funny. > > dB > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cindy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Voicing From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:37:27 EST   Hi Mike:   I'd like to encourage you to lay your hands on every book about organs you can. The Barnes book was my first also. it's a little worn, but I refer to it all the time. You have a fire in your belly I don't ever want = to see go out! I think if you follow your goal, you'll make a fine voicer, or = what ever you want to do with organs.   There is a story about the Great Arp Schnitger while he was voicing one of his master works. A mural painter was putting the finishing touches on his work over 100 feet away. The brush strokes of his soft brush so unnerved Arp that he had to stomp out in disgust. It was enough of a distraction that he had to give up working that day. He was in a word a perfectionist, and nothing but perfect would do. Now that's a pipe organ voicer if I ever heard of one!   Regards,   Ron Severin    
(back) Subject: Re: Philip Moore Workshops & Evensong From: "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:39:01 -0500   Cindy, The List is addictive for sure. PIPORG-L started me out last October with "no post" status because I am a rookie. I cannot reply to posts on that list directly, so must either reply privately to individuals, or submit my post to the administrators of the list, who then decide whether it can be forwarded to all list members. I need to write to the administrators of PIPORG to see if I can now have my status upgraded. Fortunately, many PIPORG members are also PIPECHAT members, so cross posting lets me in, so to speak.   As to the feminine music issue, I think it is a minefield I would just as soon not step in. I think I should just listen with open mind.<grin>   Cindy Adams wrote:   > Mike, > > you seem sort of upset about this...was this comment > made about something you had arranged? I sort of > forgot > the specifics of this post but remember the soprano's > comments. > > As a woman, let me tell you I never heard of pieces > being too "masculine". I think that is sort of > humorous. Maybe she is referring to great, massive > arrangements or something. Now I would consider "A > Mighty Fortress is our God" as a great dynamic piece > but masculine?? > > Maybe she prefers quiet arrangements. This is a > mystery > to me. I am not an authority on the selections > mentioned but wonder what others think about this > statement. > > They wont let you put this comment on the other list? > Why? > > Cindy, who is up wayyyy too late and will be yawning > during piano lessons tomorrow! This list is better > than > sleeping! > > > They won't let me at PIPORG-L. I > > guess I would like to see a program of music the > > below mentioned soprano selected > > as "feminine" literature. Could she mean that > > literature which more frequently > > features the soprano voice? Could there be other > > issues that render musical > > scores gender specific? And here I thought I had > > plenty to think about already. > > > > Cheers > > Mike Gettelman > > > > Cpmnhartus@aol.com wrote: > > > > > 15 March 2001 > > > > > > Fellow Listers, your opinion, please. > > > > > > Last weekend, Philip Moore, Organist and Master of > > the Music at York Minster, > > > led two workshops and a service of Choral Evensong > > at my church, St. Peter's > > > Episcopal Church in Lewes, Delaware. The Friday > > evening workshop for > > > organists and choir directors and the all day > > Saturday choir workshop was > > > followed by a service of Choral Evensong on > > Sunday. It was an extraordinary > > > event and Philip Moore was an inspiration for all > > the musicians. > > > > > > One of the choir workshop participants, a soprano, > > commented that the music > > > for Evensong was "masculine". Somehow, I never > > thought of most church music > > > as being gender specific, certainly not the music > > we sang. Here it is. Your > > > thoughtful comments are welcome. > > > > > > Sunday afternoon, 11th March at 4.00 o'clock. > > > Philip Moore, Conductor of the Workshop Choir of > > 50 voices > > > George Bayley, Organist and Accompanist > > > > > > Voluntary "Carillon" > > Leo Sowerby > > > (played by George Bayley) > > > Hymn "How Firm a Foundation" > > Tune by J. M. Haydn > > > Hymn "O Gracious Light" > > Tallis' Canon > > > Magnificat and Nunc Dimittis in D Minor T. A. > > Walmisley > > > He That Is Down Needs Fear No Fall Philip > > Moore > > > Like As the Hart Desireth the Waterbrooks > > Herbert Howells > > > Organ Selection "Piece Heroique" > > Cesar Franck > > > (played by Philip Moore) > > > Hymn "The Day Thou Gavest, Lord, Is Ended" Tune > > St. Clement > > > > > > All responses, the Apostle's Creed and the Lord's > > Prayer sung. > > > > > > Do any of you call this music masculine? Is it > > gender specific? I think the > > > singer's comment is sexist rubbish. I'm interested > > in your thoughts. > > > > > > George > > > > > > George W. Bayley > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Cindy > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Tocatta and Fugue From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:36:17 -0800   At 11:10 PM 3/15/2001 -0800, you wrote: >How old were You when you had your first recital?<snip>   7. My teacher even made me wear a suit!   >Was it an organ recital?<snip>   Yes. Pedalling wasn't easy. Neither was a fourth manual! But, by golly, =   we had electric blowers and action by then!   >Did most of you start lessons as a child?<snip>   Piano at 5, organ and 7. I got "pushed" into piano, so I "pushed back" into organ. I remember an average 3 manual console back at my first organ =   lessons as being a HORRENDOUSLY intimidating chunk of wood! If I had it = to do over, or to start of my own kids, I would have waited a couple of years. Organ (with pedalling) at 7 was a daunting task, and as I'd grow, the "feel" of the console would change a lot. Not so the piano, which = just became more comfortable. I never really started feeling "comfy" with a standard console until about 11.   dB    
(back) Subject: Re: playing by ear From: "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 02:51:04 -0500   How about "Ride of the Valkaries" and Hitler, or "Bolero" and Beau Derek.   Mike   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 11:44 PM 3/15/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >"tu es petra" by Mulet<snip> > > The "Rocky Toccata". I play it and I see Stallone. However, when I pl= ay > the B=F6ellmann "Dragnet", I see Jack Webb. Skeery stuff! > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue From: "mike" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 03:02:16 -0500   Hi Bob, What would you name the Gm Fantasia? Mike   Bob Scarborough wrote:   > At 09:18 PM 3/15/2001 -0800, you wrote: > >Hi- > > > >I like a challenge and my goal is to learn "Toccata > >and Fugue in D Minor. i have had one lesson! Am I crazy or > >what?<snip> > > You're a ways off from that just yet, but I did it in my first year = recital > as a little shaver. It was horrendously overplayed from the '40s onward > and I now consider it a "dead" piece. Many of Bach's Preludes and Fugue > bear names, such as "The St. Anne", "The Wedge", and so on. I've = entitied > the d minor "The Ubiquitous", or the "The Overworked". > > DeserTBoB > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Speaking up From: "DP" <dpitzer@sonic.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:56:39 -0800   I recently heard a recording of the [new?] Fisk instrument in Ben????? = Hall in Seattle. In the past I have generally been favorably impressed with = Fisk instruments but this one sounded ---well, less than impressive. It sounded =   rather "leathery" (??) Was it the acoustics of the hall or the voicing -- or both? But I find this to be true of most "concert hall" instruments vs "church" instruments. Acoustics?? It really sounded quite horrible, = frankly.   If I may add a second topic (I don't contribute that often.) I recently played my old 33&1/3 "LPs" of Marcel Dupre playing Bach on "his" Caville-Coll instrument at St. Sulpice in Paris. It has been quite a while =   since I heard these recordings (collector's items now, I understand) and I =   was supervised at how "refreshing" they sounded. -- that is, the organ, = the acoustic and Dupre's style of playing Bach. What a beautiful instrument! These (Mercury label) recordings must be from the late 50's and I bought them soon after their first release. The sound is gorgeous (even with the tape hiss). Is this instrument still in top-notch shape?   The sound of (what I assume to be) the 8' Montre is -- played alone in one =   of two cuts -- just plain beautiful! And although I may quibble with Dupre's idea of Bach in one or two instances, (tempi, fingering, registration) the overall effect is marvelous. Bach with a definite French =   accent but oh, so nice.   I purchased these records when I was a freshman in college (1961) and they =   then represented a substantial amount of my "pocket money." I used to listen to them over rather inexpensive headphones (thanks to an intolerant =   roommate) and they brought me hours of pleasure. Perhaps some of their appeal today is the happy memories they bring back. (There is one cut = where two stops are so out of tune with each other that is "quaint"!) Are there any current recordings of this instrument available -- preferably playing Bach, but French masters will do as well?   Thus ends my quarterly post to this fine group.   Dave Pitzer California   Dave Pitzer    
(back) Subject: Re: playing by ear From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:08:15 -0800   At 02:51 AM 3/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >How about "Ride of the Valkaries" and Hitler, or "Bolero" and Beau >Derek.<snip>   Nope. Ben Stein and George Wright, respectively.   dB    
(back) Subject: Re: Setting Goals-Toccata and Fugue From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:10:51 -0800   At 03:02 AM 3/16/2001 -0500, you wrote: >What would you name the Gm Fantasia?<snip>   "The Unmemorizable"??   dB    
(back) Subject: Re: Speaking up From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 01:33:16 -0800   At 12:56 AM 3/16/2001 -0800, you wrote: >I recently heard a recording of the [new?] Fisk instrument in Ben?????=20 >Hall in Seattle.<snip>   Benaroya? Ben-annoying? Bossa-nova?   >e past I have generally been favorably impressed with Fisk instruments but= =20 >this one sounded ---well, less than impressive. <snip>It really sounded=20 >quite horrible, frankly.<snip>   Locals in Seattle that I've conferred with say it's pretty awful. The=20 lofty cost of the thing, what with its overrated tracker action an all, has= =20 started some finger pointing among some of the musically aware...not organ= =20 people, I might add. Of course, there seems to be unlimited quantities of= =20 "Microsoft Money" for such extravagances up there, unsuccessful as some of= =20 them might be. With orchestra, these same folks term the hall's acoustics= =20 to be "neutral" to "dry".   >These (Mercury label) recordings must be from the late 50's and I bought=20 >them soon after their first release. The sound is gorgeous (even with the= =20 >tape hiss).<snip>   This, and some other Dupr=E9 recordings on Mercury, are quite good indeed,= =20 and are definitely keepers. Far less fortunate, of course, was Mercury's=20 Elmore recording of the Midmer-Losh at Atlantic City Conventional=20 Hall. One doesn't hear the organ proper, per se, as much as they do a=20 tsunami of reverberation from the huge barn. The organ was pretty badly=20 out of tune at the time, which didn't help matter much, either, but can be= =20 expected, what with temperature variations among chambers being what they'd= =20 be. Alas, that's about all that's ever been recorded of this organ in any= =20 sort of working condition, except for ACCHOS' recent CD, and that's only=20 with one chamber working.   >And although I may quibble with Dupre's idea of Bach in one or two=20 >instances, (tempi, fingering, registration) the overall effect is=20 >marvelous. Bach with a definite French accent but oh, so nice.<snip>   Dupr=E9's Bach editions sparked controversy back when they were published,= =20 indeed. It seems the anglophone nations went with Schweitzer-Widor,=20 whereas the francophones went with the Dupr=E9. I find Dupr=E9's fingering,= =20 derived from the Lemmens school as it was, to be somewhat absurd in places.   >(There is one cut where two stops are so out of tune with each other that= =20 >is "quaint"!)<snip>   Rule of thumb for French organs: NEVER in tune! However, the C-C in=20 Toulouse, as I heard on Diane Bish's weekly show two weeks ago, was in a=20 beautiful state of tune, and in impressive condition! As for Ste. Sulpice,= =20 I'll leave that to the list's followers of the C-C legacy.   DeserTBoB