PipeChat Digest #1926 - Monday, March 19, 2001
 
Re: Tracker Theatre Organs
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
enclosed chamades
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: enclosed chamades
  by "Thomas H. Cotner" <cotnerpo@brightok.net>
Re: enclosed chamades
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Tracker Theatre Organs
  by "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org>
Re: enclosed chamades
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
useful BIG reeds
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC
  by <ManderUSA@aol.com>
Re: Bach hymn - I forgot . . .
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Tracker Theatre Organs
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: Expression Pedal Order
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Technic to Learn ....Twiddling my Thumbs!
  by "Cindy Adams" <piperheaven@yahoo.com>
Re: enclosed chamades
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: useful BIG reeds
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Old Saint Patrick's Cathedral, NYC, ERBEN
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Tracker Theatre Organs
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Bach hymn -
  by "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Tracker Theatre Organs From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 06:52:17 -0500   Having never seen a tracker theatre organ, I'm wondering: How is the instrument laid out? I assume it is self-contained with the keydesk built in the case? Is it installed on one side of the procineum?   I could be smart-alecky and ask " where's the xylophone? " <G>   Thanks,   Rick    
(back) Subject: enclosed chamades From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:49:47 EST   <Should ChamadeTrumpets also be put in a box to increase their = expressiveness ?   Antoni raised an interesting point. The Ruffatti at 1st Pres., Berkley, = CA, has a chamade enclosed in the choir chamber. It's no different that = having any other big solo reed enclosed, say, like a Tuba, or Harmonic Trumpet. However, the beauty of a chamade is visual as well as aural, and to me it defeats the purpose if a chamade is hidden. Just put the big hooded = trumpet or tuba in the box, and leave the chamade out on display.   Monty  
(back) Subject: Re: enclosed chamades From: "Thomas H. Cotner" <cotnerpo@brightok.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:45:20 -0600   So does the Ruffatti at Baylor, University, Waco, Texas. Most convenient!   Tom Cotner   RMB10@aol.com wrote:   > <Should ChamadeTrumpets also be put in a box to increase their = expressiveness > ? > > Antoni raised an interesting point. The Ruffatti at 1st Pres., = Berkley, CA, > has a chamade enclosed in the choir chamber.    
(back) Subject: Re: enclosed chamades From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 10:29:52 EST   HI Monty:   En Chamade reeds as we display them, is Spanish. They were much softer in intonation and tone than the French version installed within the organ case itself. Some are even hooded in the English tradition. The Frence versions were much louder, but installing them inside the case took some of the sting of full prominence out of the tone, and made them more useful.   Our philosophy is more is better! French style en Chamades installed in the Spanish fashion. Unless the separation in the building, for = instance Crystal Cathedral or St. JTD, they probably are too loud. A vast worship space absorbs a lot of the sting, smaller spaces can't adequately handle. Installing in the case would be a much better choice for usefulness. The en Chamade is a very expensive stop, and if it must be displayed outside the case, should be softer for smaller worship spaces. It should be telling, but not blow people away. I think that is the major complaint. Not every church or cathedral is of the dimentions of CC or SJTD.   Regards,   Ron Severin   PS The above for your consideration!  
(back) Subject: Re: Tracker Theatre Organs From: "Jon C. Habermaas" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:38:19 -0600   At 06:52 AM 3/19/01 -0500, you wrote: >Having never seen a tracker theatre organ, I'm wondering: How is the >instrument laid out? I assume it is self-contained with the keydesk = built >in the case? Is it installed on one side of the procineum? > >I could be smart-alecky and ask " where's the xylophone? " <G>   Who needs a Xylophone....just listen to the "Trackers Clack"   (sorry....couldn't resist)   jch   PS...any Tracker Theatre Organs...were Tracker organs in theatres...not Tracker Theatre Organs..as I can't picture a "Tracker Unit Orchestra"    
(back) Subject: Re: enclosed chamades From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 07:58:43 -0800   The horizontal Tuba at Sacre Coeur in Paris is enclosed ... and it's STILL earth-shattering (grin).   After fifty years in this business, I've concluded that almost NOBODY = likes unenclosed chamade reeds EXCEPT organists ... I've come across MANY = chamades that were either disconnected, and/or the organist was FORBIDDEN to use them.   Yet organists still insist on having them built ... I guess as a prestige = item ... how many times have you heard someone ask, "does YOUR organ have a 'party = horn'?" (grin)   Cheers,   Bud   "Thomas H. Cotner" wrote:   > So does the Ruffatti at Baylor, University, Waco, Texas. Most = convenient! > > Tom Cotner > > RMB10@aol.com wrote: > > > <Should ChamadeTrumpets also be put in a box to increase their = expressiveness > > ? > > > > Antoni raised an interesting point. The Ruffatti at 1st Pres., = Berkley, CA, > > has a chamade enclosed in the choir chamber. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: useful BIG reeds From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:14:13 -0800 (PST)     someone wrote: > > > Antoni raised an interesting point. The Ruffatti at 1st Pres., = Berkley, > CA, > > > has a chamade enclosed in the choir chamber.     Chamades are wonderful in large organs - what makes them affective is not = so much the volume, Wurli style resonators, etc., it is the room.   The Wicks I played had a mid 80's add-on Chamade voiced in the english = style. The installer had done a marvelous job in assuring it would stay put = during an earthquake, the thing was on 6-1/2" wind with its own blower, etc....   However, it was very objectionable in that it was only a few feet above = the top rows of the choir. It was also objectionable in the room at least close = to the organ. Now on the other side of the room it was fine. Why do organists = insist on chamades in small churches with low ceiling height?   I've played a number of 1950's and 60's organs with big Bombardes either = in the solo or choir departments that did the required tasks of trumpet tunes, fanfares, climax stops, and they did not make you wish you had ear plugs. = At Christ church the choir had a supply of ear plugs for hymns so when the = mixture came on it would not kill them. Yet they NEEDED the mixture in the room.   My favorite chamades are always located in large organs and mounted HIGH = in the case. I don't care whether a big reed is enclosed or not - however, why = chamade something enclosed - it should be HOODED.     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Randy Terry Minister of Music, Organist & Choirmaster The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:15:49 EST   Hi List:   In the Organist's Book of Days George Jardine placed his en Chamades on display, but they were angled up and to the side, not directly at the congregation. The Great Flues were out in the open rather in a later Holtkamp fashion, mixtures too. It makes for a rather busy display, considering the time it was built. I wonder if these reeds were as wearing on the listener as our modern party horns. This organ was built in 1880, and probably caused quite a stir when it was first played for the public. Does anyone know if this organ still exists in NYC?   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC From: <ManderUSA@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:26:44 EST     --part1_90.11ade4d1.27e78d44_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/19/2001 11:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, RonSeverin@aol.com writes:     > This organ > was built in 1880, and probably caused quite a stir when it was first > played for the public. Does anyone know if this organ still exists in = NYC? >   I was in there a few years ago, and don't recall seeing anything so spectacular. Another lost Jardine, similarly wild looking, was the organ = at St. George's, NY, with the trumpets fanning out the same way. It is a = truly amazing display, but gone forever, replaced by an Ernest White Moller, the =   organ upon which Power Biggs recorded his oft-discussed Romantic Organ = Music LP all those years ago. There is a good picture of the St. George's instrument in the Blanton book.   Cheers,   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   --part1_90.11ade4d1.27e78d44_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2>In a message dated 3/19/2001 11:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, <BR>RonSeverin@aol.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This organ <BR>was built in 1880, and probably caused quite a stir when it was first <BR>played for the public. Does anyone know if this organ still exists in = NYC? <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>I was in there a few years ago, and don't recall seeing anything so <BR>spectacular. Another lost Jardine, similarly wild looking, was the = organ at <BR>St. George's, NY, with the trumpets fanning out the same way. It is a = truly <BR>amazing display, but gone forever, replaced by an Ernest White Moller, = the <BR>organ upon which Power Biggs recorded his oft-discussed Romantic Organ = Music <BR>LP all those years ago. There is a good picture of the St. George's <BR>instrument in the Blanton book. <BR> <BR>Cheers, <BR> <BR>Malcolm Wechsler <BR>www.mander-organs.com</FONT></HTML>   --part1_90.11ade4d1.27e78d44_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach hymn - I forgot . . . From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:39:23 -0500   > From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> > Subject: Bach hymn - I forgot . . . > > to make myself clear. Let me add that I am asking for the purpose of > finishing with a CONGREGATIONAL hymn. We already have a program full of > Bach ready to go. > Glenda: Considering it's Lent and all, how about Freu dich sehr as = abridged and harmonized by JSB; it appears with one-stanza text in 1958 Service = Book and Hymnal (ELCA), at #71.   Or the Passion Chorale (O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden and other names)--O Sacred Head. Adapted and harmonized by JSB. In the same book, which any ELCA church can lend you if you don't have it.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: unenclosed chamades Jardine 1880 Old St. Pat's NYC From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:47:22 -0800     --------------52A7D0D42CD54995FEB64DF3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Then what IS the organ in Old St. Patrick's? As I recall (from a Tracker of some years ago) it's a three-manual tracker, but if the Jardine was installed in 1880, would it have been replaced with ANOTHER tracker so soon?   Cheers,   Bud   ManderUSA@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 3/19/2001 11:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, > RonSeverin@aol.com writes: > > > >> This organ >> was built in 1880, and probably caused quite a stir when it was >> first >> played for the public. Does anyone know if this organ still exists >> in NYC? > > I was in there a few years ago, and don't recall seeing anything so > spectacular. Another lost Jardine, similarly wild looking, was the > organ at > St. George's, NY, with the trumpets fanning out the same way. It is a > truly > amazing display, but gone forever, replaced by an Ernest White Moller, > the > organ upon which Power Biggs recorded his oft-discussed Romantic Organ > Music > LP all those years ago. There is a good picture of the St. George's > instrument in the Blanton book. > > Cheers, > > Malcolm Wechsler > www.mander-organs.com   --------------52A7D0D42CD54995FEB64DF3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> Then what IS the organ in Old St. Patrick's? As I recall (from a Tracker of some years ago) it's a three-manual tracker, but if the Jardine was installed in 1880, would it have been replaced with ANOTHER tracker so soon? <p>Cheers, <p>Bud <p>ManderUSA@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>In = a message dated 3/19/2001 11:17:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>RonSeverin@aol.com = writes:</font></font> <br>&nbsp; <br>&nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font = face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>This organ</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>was built in 1880, and = probably caused quite a stir when it was first</font></font> <br><font face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font size=3D-1>played for the public. = Does anyone know if this organ still exists in NYC?</font></font></blockquote>   <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>I was in = there a few years ago, and don't recall seeing anything so</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>spectacular. Another lost Jardine, similarly wild looking, was the organ = at</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>St. = George's, NY, with the trumpets fanning out the same way. It is a = truly</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>amazing = display, but gone forever, replaced by an Ernest White Moller, = the</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>organ = upon which Power Biggs recorded his oft-discussed Romantic Organ = Music</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>LP all = those years ago. There is a good picture of the St. = George's</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>instrument in the Blanton book.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>Cheers,</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Malcolm = Wechsler</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>www.mander-organs.com</font></font></font></blockquote>   </body> </html>   --------------52A7D0D42CD54995FEB64DF3--    
(back) Subject: Re: Tracker Theatre Organs From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:01:11 -0500       Sand Lawn wrote: > > The Mabel Tainter Theatre in Wisconsin.. (I cannot think of the exact > town) ... Menomie, possibly... has a Steere & Turner tracker organ... = if > it were not so late I would actually go look it up ... built in 1890... >   Thanks, Sand - There are some good web sites for this theatre. The link below has some interesting information regarding this organ which is credited for saving the building from demolition!   http://lorenzo.uwstout.edu/mabel/theater.html   The Official Site is: http://www.mabeltainter.com/   Stan Lowkis  
(back) Subject: Re: Expression Pedal Order From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:09:11 EST   We have just completed the engineering drawings for the new console for = the IV/135 under construction for Temple Emanu-El in NYC. The order of the six balanced pedals is as follows, from left to right:   Echo and Echo Pedal (Southwest Tower) Orchestral String Ensemble (above the Great Arch) Choir (North Triforium) Swell (Upper East Tribune, north) Solo/Bombarde (above the Great Arch) Crescendo (programmable)   The unenclosed divisions are: Great (Lower East Tribune, north) Pedal (East Tribune, south) Tuba (at the spring of the Great Arch, north side, above the Celesta)   N.B.: the Tuba division floats as a division, but is really only two = sets of pipes, a 16'-8'-4' hooded reed on 25" wind, and the middle octave of a = 4' Principal (labeled "Tuning Reference" on the knob), also on 25" wind, = which will be used as a universal tuning reference for the entire organ. It = will be audible all the way at the west end for tuning both the Chapel and = Tower organs. Other religious institutions in the city may be able to hear it = as well...   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City     The original mechanism in the old organ, used for switching any set of shutters to any pedal, was disconnected nearly half a century ago, and destoryed. It was decided in committee not to replace this mechanism with =   some kind of solid state circuitry, as its use was limited, and they had = done with out it for so long, it seemed to make no difference to them. The remaining  
(back) Subject: Technic to Learn ....Twiddling my Thumbs! From: "Cindy Adams" <piperheaven@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:34:44 -0800 (PST)   What pieces or selections can I practice while impatiently waiting for my next organ lesson? (on piano..I don't really have anything to practice on organ yet)   Someone suggested Hanon, others Bach Fugues...what else????   Cindy   (I'm not really sitting around twidding my thumbs..I have a piano recital coming up with 32 students but I would rather be practicing!!!)   --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > HI Monty: > > En Chamade reeds as we display them, is Spanish. > They were much > softer in intonation and tone than the French > version installed within > the organ case itself. Some are even hooded in the > English tradition. > The Frence versions were much louder, but installing > them inside the > case took some of the sting of full prominence out > of the tone, and > made them more useful. > > Our philosophy is more is better! French style en > Chamades installed > in the Spanish fashion. Unless the separation in the > building, for instance > Crystal Cathedral or St. JTD, they probably are too > loud. A vast worship > space absorbs a lot of the sting, smaller spaces > can't adequately handle. > Installing in the case would be a much better choice > for usefulness. > The en Chamade is a very expensive stop, and if it > must be displayed > outside the case, should be softer for smaller > worship spaces. It should > be telling, but not blow people away. I think that > is the major complaint. > Not every church or cathedral is of the dimentions > of CC or SJTD. > > Regards, > > Ron Severin > > PS The above for your consideration! > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: enclosed chamades From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:58:41 -0800   At 10:29 AM 3/19/2001 -0500, you wrote: >The Frence versions were much louder, but installing them inside the >case took some of the sting of full prominence out of the tone, and >made them more useful.<snip>   Actually, some of the exposed examples I've suffered with are useful to hang out freshly washed laundry, and that's about it! Musically, many are =   worthless.   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Re: useful BIG reeds From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:03:49 -0800   At 08:14 AM 3/19/2001 -0800, you wrote: >I don't care whether a big reed is enclosed or not - however, why chamade >something enclosed - it should be HOODED.<snip>   The large Skinner at UCLA's Royce Hall has such a Hooded Trumpet that is quite effective. I'd take it over those ridiculous Spanish party horns = any day. Needless to say, the Spanish have VERY little to contribute in the field of organ building and repertoire over the ages, as with most other things. Biggs' infatuation with Solar and Spanish organs showed up in his =   1956 Columbia release. The music is typically crude, as are the organs!   DeserTBoB    
(back) Subject: Old Saint Patrick's Cathedral, NYC, ERBEN From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:22:53 EST   Dear Pipe Chatters:   The organ in Old Saint Patrick's Cathedral in New York City is a = three-manual 1866-68 Henry Erben of about fifty ranks, mechanical action. All but four = of its ranks appear to be original, although the pipework is filthy and extensively damaged, and there is some splitting in the Great soundboard table.   Among its tonal features are a remarkable 16' Pedal Trombone, so thrilling =   and brilliant that one things of a Willis ophicleide. Also notable, the = 16' Bell Gamba in the pedal, the only one I have ever seen. Yet another VERY unusual original feature for the period is the 4' open wood flute in the Pedal...   The console may have been moved out of its en fenetre position in the = 1870s, and the action is quite stiff. This may also have been when the = mechanical combination action, in wood and iron, was fitted up. The action stiffness =   may also be due to the fact that the action was very poorly rebuilt and = the keyboards badly rebuilt in the early 1970s.   The wind supply has been drastically altered, but a recent archaeological expedition has uncovered ALL of the material necessary to rebuild the triple-feeder, hand-cranked winding mechanisms. The organ also sports triple-rise reservoirs, although they have been butchered and had their = folds reduced. Pressures have bee altered considerably, although the voicing = was not touched, with the exception of some damaged reeds, and the two replacement stops (8' Great Viola da Gamba and Mixture III).   The Cathedral is currently under the care of a conservation firm which is planning extensive historical research before any attempt to actually = RESTORE this Civil War instrument commences. Within recent decades ALL of the = files on the organ were either stolen or discarded, and the process of studying Erben documents, both written ones and musical instruments, is under way = to make sure that THIS restoration is the real thing. A good deal of = previous work will have to be UNdone, but in general, this organ is VERY much in = tact, and VERY important.   Among the parishioners at the time was Lorenzo da Ponte, Mozart's = librettist, who was also the first professor of Italian at Columbia University.   If anybody on the list has any access to Erben organs or documents, please =   Email me privately. Thank you.   Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: Tracker Theatre Organs From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:29:07 EST     --part1_88.3e8c284.27e79be3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 3/19/01 11:56:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, = dutchorgan@svs.net writes:     > I could be smart-alecky and ask " where's the xylophone? " <G> > It is possible. I have some wonderful CDs of old Italian tracker organs = with tuned bells of full compass. They're wonderful (and possible).   Bruce ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   --part1_88.3e8c284.27e79be3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 3/19/01 11:56:02 AM !!!First Boot!!!, dutchorgan@svs.net <BR>writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I could be = smart-alecky and ask " where's the xylophone? " &nbsp;&lt;G&gt; <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">It is possible. &nbsp;I have some wonderful CDs = of old Italian tracker organs with <BR>tuned bells of full compass. &nbsp;&nbsp;They're wonderful (and = possible). <BR> <BR>Bruce &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/</FONT></HTML>   --part1_88.3e8c284.27e79be3_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Bach hymn - From: "Karl E. Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 12:31:46 -0500 (EST)     If we are faithful to Bach's attitude and productivity, crediting Bach with congregational hymns is risky busines. First of all, Bach suffered a real case of burn-out at Leipzig, retreated to his ivory tower, so to speak, and often could care less about the people's congregational singing. So while we have every reason to be grateful for Bach's many strong and valuable contributions to our lives and current practice, congreational song is *not* one of them.   We must remember that Bach chorales such as one sees in the "complete" collection of the 371 Bach chorales were written as choral/orchestra fare, NOT as congregational music. The rhythmic chorales of the 16th and 17th centuries got ironed-out, relatively deadened rhythmic life at Bach's hands in what we often now call isometric chorale versions, and this style is far less vibrant than the original rhythmic chorale versions. These isometric chorales, complete with Bach's wonderful harmonies and voice leadings, make terrific music when performed as Bach intended, but they do not make for strong congregational singing.   Some of this problem got filtered into America from both 19th-century Germany and, more especially, from 19th-century England, where THE CHOIR was the thing, even to the extent of J. Varley Roberts' famous signs in the pews requestiong that the congregation should NOT sing! To whatever extent 19th-century congregations did sing, especially in England, it was a tag-along-after-the-choir sort of proposition and attitude, and THAT does not make for good congregational singing, especially when the choir is "up there" somewhere -- or in England, even "over there" on the other side of the organ screen!!!!   Signing Bach harmonziations of chorales as congregational fare is a mistake, not matter how much people like it or find it personally satisfying. The far-stronger rhythms of the "rhythmic chorale" enliven worship, especially when the tempi go just fast enough to let those rhythmic patterns "jump" a bit. Then one can begin to make sense of Philipp Nicolai's line at the end of "Wie schoen leuchtet der Morgerstern,"   Singet! Springet! Sing Jump!   Can you imagine a Victorian Englishman proposing to jump in church?!!! Catherine Winkworth simply couldn't stand such ideas within the context she knew and robbed us of the real message of many a chorale in favor of an English Victorian/Oxford Movement attitude instead.   So it's risky business to associate Bach with congregational hymn singing. It's better just to forget the whole idea than to upset people in the congregation with facts of history such as I have hauled out. Indeed, I'm likely to have upset even a few readers of Pipechat!!   Cordially,   Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA