PipeChat Digest #2089 - Monday, May 7, 2001
 
Re: flamboyant gift for myself
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
what's in a name?
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: organ specifications
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: flamboyant gift for myself
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: what's in a name?
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: what's in a name?
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: organ specifications
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: what's in a name?
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: what's in a name?
  by "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net>
Re: what's in a name?
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: what's in a name?
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Marcel Dupre
  by "Charles Harder" <charder@mail.ties.k12.mn.us>
1-manual organ
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Rhosymedre...
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: sluggish electric pulldowns
  by "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net>
Re: 1-manual organ
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re:Hyfrodol
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: 1-manual organ
  by "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com>
Re: 1-manual organ
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: Hyfrydol
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Wonderful Choral Concert
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: what's in a name?
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
Re: Winds of War(X-Posted)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: flamboyant gift for myself
  by "Cindy Adams" <piperheaven@yahoo.com>
Re: flamboyant gift for myself
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
Re: flamboyant gift for myself
  by <AMADPoet@aol.com>
Stewart Wayne Foster
  by <AMADPoet@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: flamboyant gift for myself From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:08:42 -0700   At 18:26 5/6/2001 -0400, you wrote: >a bellowing organ in a public library is illegal? Annoying maybe, but >illegal? Besides, it won't be played during open hours..........<snip>   Gee....THAT makes sense...   dB    
(back) Subject: what's in a name? From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:17:38 -0700   I'm not sure I understand your meaning here, Carlo.   "Positif" and "Positiv" are the French and German spellings, respectively, for the same thing: the first subsidiary division (at least in baroque organs), usually placed on the gallery rail.   "Choir" is a corruption of the old English "chaire", which meant the same thing as the German "Positiv im stuhl", as the organist's seat was often attached to the back of the Rueckpositiv case.   Enclosed "Choir" organs are a product of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and bear little resemblance to any of the above.   As to the order of manuals, I'd be VERY surprised if there weren't at = least SOME early Casavants (particularly in French-speaking Canada) that had the French romantic disposition of the manuals:   Recit - top Positif - middle Grand Orgue - bottom   I don't know quite how the very inconvenient English/American order of manuals came to be the norm for a French Canadian builder (grin).   I DO know of cases where Casavant built BOTH an unenclosed Positif/Positiv/Positive organ (pick a spelling ... they used all three) = AND an enclosed Choir organ, mostly in Anglican churches that just couldn't = give up their Choir organs for accompanimental purposes (supposedly). If I'm = not mistaken, All Saints' Chapel, University of the South, Sewanee, Tennessee, USA, has both.   Sometimes they planted both on the same keyboard with some sort of toggle control; sometimes the Choir became a "Choir/Bombarde" on the fourth (top) manual; sometimes the Choir was a floating division WITHOUT a home manual.   But I don't know of any FUNCTIONAL distinction between "Positif" and "Positiv" (or "Positive", for that matter) ... on organs with = French-language stop names, they spelled it "Positif"; on Germanic organs, they spelled it "Positiv"; on Anglican organs where the organist insisted on "English" English nomenclature, they spelled it "Positive" (when actually it should have been "Chaire" or "Chair", to be consistent by FUNCTION, at least if = it was on the rail).   Cheers,   Bud   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > remember that 'positif' is NOT to be confused with 'positiv'. The = positif > division on a Casavant corresponds to the 'choir; division.........the > bottom manual > > c.p. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: organ specifications From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:13:28 -0400   Bruce,   who said that was aimed at you?!? There are other people on this list to, = ya know <G>   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: flamboyant gift for myself From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:20:17 -0400   Well Bob............unless I sneak up there and play the lowest pedal note on the contre bombarde 32. Oh boy, wouldn't I be a real stinker if I did that?!?   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:24:26 -0400   well, let's take the 117-rank Ruffatti at Coral Ridge. The manuals, from = top to bottom are....   antiphonal positive swell great choir   Now, if this were a 5-manual Casavant, wouldn't the bottom manual be = called "positif"? I've played 4-manual Casavants from the 1920's to the 1950's, = and the names are, from top to bottom...   solo recit grand orgue positif   I've never seen a 5-manual Casavant, so I don't know what the 5th manual would be.   Carlo    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:26:52 -0400   the 5-manual Rudolph Von Beckerath organ here in Montreal, has manual = names like this, from top to bottom....   echo recit bombarde grand orgue positif   and that's built in Germany, in 1960....   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: organ specifications From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 21:31:17 -0500   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > remember that 'positif' is NOT to be confused with 'positiv'. The = positif > division on a Casavant corresponds to the 'choir; division.........the > bottom manual   Eh? Now you've got me totally confused. Now in one sense a Positive = (Ger. Positiv; Fr. Positif) organ is a small FIXED organ as contrasted with a MOVEABLE, or Portative (Ger. Portativ; Fr. Portatif) instrument. In = another sense a Positive (Ger. Positive; Fr. Positif) organ is a soewhat faddish phenomenon of the 1960's, voiced in such a way as to overcome the lack of consonants in choral music as sung by many choirs. In another sense the German Positiv and French Positif are the English equivalent of the Choir Organ in both Classical and Romantic organs. Whatever the Positif organ = on your instrument is, it -- and indeed much of the rest of the instrument -- look from the specification as if they were fairly heavily revised in the 1960's or 1970's. This may in some ways have been a good thing, but I = think it is inescapable that it is the case, and that you are dealing with something that is far from being a pristine Casavant .   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:38:46 -0700   But that's a germanic organ with French nomenclature (grin). German organs = with a Rueckpositiv ALWAYS put it on the bottom manual, even on a two-manual = organ, which results in the Hauptwerk being the TOP manual. The Casavant tracker = in Our Lady of Sorrows (?) in Toronto is like that.   Cheers,   Bud   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > the 5-manual Rudolph Von Beckerath organ here in Montreal, has manual = names > like this, from top to bottom.... > > echo > recit > bombarde > grand orgue > positif > > and that's built in Germany, in 1960.... > > c.p. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: "Bob Scarborough" <desertbob@rglobal.net> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:40:14 -0700   At 22:26 5/6/2001 -0400, you wrote: >the 5-manual Rudolph Von Beckerath organ here in Montreal<snip>   ARTHUR LAMIRANDE.....PAGING MR. ARTHUR LAMIRANDE...   hehehehehe!    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:42:44 -0400   Bob..........how would you like a slap?!? *LOL*   okay........I'll be nice.......scout's honor!!! *fingers crossed behind back*   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 19:52:25 -0700       Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > well, let's take the 117-rank Ruffatti at Coral Ridge. The manuals, from = top > to bottom are.... > > antiphonal > positive > swell > great > choir   With respect, I wouldn't try to extrapolate ANYTHING about traditional/historical organ-building from ANY Ruffati organ (grin).   > Now, if this were a 5-manual Casavant, wouldn't the bottom manual be = called > "positif"?   Depends on the period and the country. I think you're trying to defend = something that simply isn't defensible ... nor does it MATTER a whole lot (grin).   > I've played 4-manual Casavants from the 1920's to the 1950's, and > the names are, from top to bottom... > > solo > recit > grand orgue > positif   "Solo" is in and of itself an anomaly, though for some unknown reason the Bombarde division at St. Sulpice in Paris WAS renamed "Solo" when the = order of manuals was altered. The original was:   5 - Recit 4 - Positif 3 - Bombarde 2 - Grand Orgue 1 - Grand Choeur   which is logical ... softest to loudest. Unfortunately it put the Recit on = the top manual where nobody could reach it (grin), so C-C altered it to:   5 - Solo (Bombarde, renamed) 4 - Recit 3 - Positif 2 - Grand Orgue 1 - Grand Choeur   > I've never seen a 5-manual Casavant, so I don't know what the 5th manual > would be.   If you had the money for a five-manual Casavant, I'd imagine you could = call the fifth manual whatever you jolly well pleased (grin).   Maybe somebody could look up the spec of the Royal York Hotel organ ... or = was that only four manuals? The other "biggest" Casavant is the derelict one = in that Episcopal church in Boston (I can NEVER remember the name), but I don't = remember whether it was four or five manuals.   "Echo" was the most common fifth manual in the U.S., at least with = Skinner; I have seen Steere organs (and others) who omitted the Solo organ and put = the Echo on the 4th manual; other builders CALLED the Choir organ "Solo" on = three-manual organs, but put the typical turn-of-the-century Choir stops on it.   Standardization (in the U.S., at least) didn't come until the A.G.O. = standards in the 1930s, which were mostly extrapolated from the practices of E.M. = Skinner. And then standardization promptly broke down again with the introduction = of organs modeled after historical instruments of ALL periods and countries.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Marcel Dupre From: "Charles Harder" <charder@mail.ties.k12.mn.us> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 21:50:53 -0500 (CDT)   Does anyone know whose edition of music the young Dupre used when he was learning and memorizing the complete works of J. S. Bach?   Charles Harder      
(back) Subject: 1-manual organ From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:49:36 -0400   we have here in Montreal, a one-manual tracker-action organ, built by the Francois Caron firm, it's their first instrument (opus 1), built in 1986. = It has a 56-note manual (reversed colors), and a 30-note pedalboard. The = stops are as follows........   MANUAL gedeckt 8 koppelflote 4 prinzipal 4 oktav 2 mixtur III 1   PEDAL subbass 16 manual to pedal   would the manual be a positif, or a great?   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: Rhosymedre... From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:48:09 +0800   I didn't use the word "limited" nor did I intend to imply that it was "limited" to any one group.I was talking about the origin of the tume. Bob Elms.   Bob Conway wrote: > > I would like a "tanner" for every time I have sung Hyfrydol in my High > Anglican church back home in London. > I don't think that this hymn is limited to Welsh Methodists at all! > Bob Conway >    
(back) Subject: Re: sluggish electric pulldowns From: "Panning" <jpanning@cal-net.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 21:57:03 -0500   >> Forgive my ignorance, but why are they sluggish? > >They just don't magnetize fast enough to pull open large valves, > so you tend to get rather poor note repetition.   There is a non-leather solution to this. In addition to the pallet magnet, several builders add an EM valve at the opposite end of the channel to break the pluck for the pallet. This idea grew out of research that Dick Houghton and Jan Rowland did some years ago.   It's important that the pallet spring in this arrangement be fairly stiff, so that it snaps shut when the key is released. The EM valve will still permit it to open, since there will be substantially reduced pluck.   If well regulated, the repetition is really quite excellent. It would be interesting to compare the playing characterisitics of identical slider chests fitted with different actions: one with the Blackinton system, and one with the EM system I've described here.   John      
(back) Subject: Re: 1-manual organ From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:01:26 EDT   In a message dated 5/6/01 10:52:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, organist@total.net writes:   << would the manual be a positif, or a great? >>   It is simply the manual. The whole organ is a positiv. By the way, I thing = it is simply wonderful that your big Casavant is going to stay in it's = original home and serve as a public concert organ. Kudos to Carlo.   Cheers:   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re:Hyfrodol From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:03:42 EDT     --part1_2d.b504ba2.28276a8e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Still one of my favorite tunes.   Neil B   --part1_2d.b504ba2.28276a8e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Still one of my = favorite tunes. <BR> <BR>Neil B</FONT></HTML>   --part1_2d.b504ba2.28276a8e_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: 1-manual organ From: "V. David Barton" <vdbarton@erols.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:05:06 -0400   > would the manual be a positif, or a great?   Good question.   My guess would be that it would simply be called "the organ." After all, the different manuals are given names to distinguish them one from the other. If there's only one, there's no such need. Right?    
(back) Subject: Re: 1-manual organ From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:05:42 -0400   the names of these stops are the same as stops found in 'positiv' = divisions of large organs I've seen and played.........   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: Hyfrydol From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:08:22 EDT     --part1_d6.63df2f7.28276ba6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I don't care who sings it, I get choked up everytime I play it. I love = it.   Neil B   --part1_d6.63df2f7.28276ba6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't care who sings = it, I get choked up everytime I play it. &nbsp;I love it. <BR> <BR>Neil B</FONT></HTML>   --part1_d6.63df2f7.28276ba6_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Wonderful Choral Concert From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:13:09 EDT     --part1_74.a530837.28276cc5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Because, Roy, we want God's house to be comfortable like our own <grin>.   Neil B   --part1_74.a530837.28276cc5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Because, Roy, we want = God's house to be comfortable like our own &lt;grin&gt;. <BR> <BR>Neil B</FONT></HTML>   --part1_74.a530837.28276cc5_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: what's in a name? From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:20:40 EDT   Carlo, as money is no object and you are confused about Positiv, Positif, Positive, Choir, Chair, I say add one of each as well as a Kronpositiv, Oberpositiv, Antiphonal, Echo, Celestial, Stentor and a 100 rank string division. You could follow in the steps of Rodman Wanamaker. I'll build an = 8 manual console for you. Wish I were in your shoes.   No such thing as too much organ:   Alan B  
(back) Subject: Re: Winds of War(X-Posted) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 00:48:56 EDT   Hi Tim and List:   Early attempts at E-orgs imitation of pipe organs created a tremendous gulf between the real thing (Pipes) and the imitation. As the decades wear on however the gap has dramatically closed.   Having said that, IMHO will the gap be closed entirely? The answer is no. But I do think an entirely new instrument is emerging. International music is very close to introducing a completely modeled organ. At NAMM this year the DB-25 was introduced. It was an exercise to prove that this is indeed on the way, and may be accomplished in a year or two, to emulate all the characteristics, and inherently charming defects for want of a better term in the real thing. Acoustical enhansements, and a great variety of historical temperments will be available in a = single instrument that can be scaled, and set stop by stop note by note in any environment. Flue and reed tone will be voiceable as every pipe organ using digital controls, rather than cones, cut up knives etc. I believe what we will have here is a completely new instrument. Will it ever replace pipes? I don't ever think so, but I also don't think it will have to. Sampling and other methods are just steps along the way to something that will stand up in it's own right.   I guess my anology is this, Clavichords, and Harpsichords, Early = Piano/Fortes and Modern Pianos stand on their own. Each is different, but similar. = Music written for the early Clavichords and Harpsichords can be played on the Modern Piano, but not necessarily the reverse. Temperments of the earlier instruments will be lost on the M/P(Modern Piano). The same is true for early pipe organs verses modern pipe organs and Equal Temperment, also Live old buildings and many dead new ones. Music has been narrowed and chocked down by so-called perfect but dead accoustics. The new instruments will not be so handicaped, and carry foreward all or most of the desireable characteristics dropped by fashion and accoustics. It will be possible then to recreate an instrument from any era in sound and temperment in a split second. And there the two instruments begin to part ways each to it's own perfection, and imitation will cease.   Regards,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: flamboyant gift for myself From: "Cindy Adams" <piperheaven@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:07:25 -0700 (PDT)   Carlo,   Just curious...if you own the organ, who is responsible if the instrument is damaged in any way? Will you have a contract with the person who owns the building? insurance?   Seems like you would need something drawn up by a lawyer so all of the bases are covered since you are the owner and different situations could come up having it in a place owned by someone else. Do you plan to do something like this?   Cindy   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: flamboyant gift for myself From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 02:07:40 -0400   I own the organ, but the city owns the building, so they're responsible = for the insurance.   c.p.    
(back) Subject: Re: flamboyant gift for myself From: <AMADPoet@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 02:30:48 EDT   In a message dated 5/6/01 5:00:17 PM Central Daylight Time, organist@total.net writes:   << The organ will stay right where it is. It turns out that he'll be turning it into a public library for the city. >>   An organ in a library?? That's my idea of heaven! And what a wonderful = place to have an organ- you can play concerts for all age ranges, have instant advertising right there in the library. You can do a world of good for the =   community!   Mandy <---book worm  
(back) Subject: Stewart Wayne Foster From: <AMADPoet@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 02:44:34 EDT   Hello listers:   On May 14th at 8:00 PM the Dallas International Organ Competition Annual Recital Series presents: Stewart Wayne Foster at the Meyerson. Tickets = $5.00 for any seating choice.   box office: 214-692-0203   Come hear the Lay Family Organ (CB Fisk, as I'm sure everyone knows) and = show support for organ recitals in Dallas!   Everyone have a great week, Mandy