PipeChat Digest #2124 - Monday, May 28, 2001
 
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Latin vs. translations?
  by "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com>
Re: information needed about Midmer organ
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: information needed about Midmer organ
  by <PEsch8@aol.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Easy Bach, The Modern Piano, an American invention.
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: The Severance Chamber
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by <AMADPoet@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:32:49 -0700   Bach reportedly played a very early piano-forte, and was said to remark = that it would never be suitable for anything but "light" music. So much for playing Bach on the piano (grin).   Remember that the piano went through quite an evolution from those early square grands to the modern concert grand with cast-iron sounding-board. There was a movement awhile back to play and record Mozart, Haydn, and = even early Beethoven on copies of the earlier instruments, with suitably = reduced orchestral forces and "period" orchestral instruments for the concerti.   I don't think it much matters whether one gains facility by practicing the harpsichord or the piano. In earlier times, using the harpsichord or clavichord as a practice instrument was a necessity, as churches were unheated and bellows-boys couldn't be got to pump the organs for endless hours of practice, a luxury we enjoy today with modern electric blowers.   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach   Bob Elms wrote:   > Jackson, No. You name the great organists who did study the piano. Don't > list Bach, Buxtehude, etc. That would be just too easy. Who played the > FIRST pianos? Do we know that? > > "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > > > Oh yeah, Carlo? Which great organists never studied > > the piano? Go ahead..name them. > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Latin vs. translations? From: "WDBabcock" <WDBabcock@email.msn.com> Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 21:25:18 -0500   I TOLD my Latin teacher that! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Latin vs. translations?     > > > In response to a question from Neil about translating a phrase from > English into Latin, I cited a website about which I wrote, in part: > > > I admit that I have used it only to translate Latin to English > > At the time I posted, this, the host server was unavailable, and going > to it for something else, I discover that the reason I have not used it > to translate English to Latin is because it doesn't seem possible. > > ns > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: information needed about Midmer organ From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:37:23 -0700     --------------42501357915409489FB8691E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Don't know how much help this might be, but there was a five-manual Midmer (Losh?) in the Jesuit Church (St. Francis Xavier) on the west side of Cleveland. It was replaced in the 1950s or 1960s by a three-manual Schantz, so Schantz might have some record of it. I imagine it was broken up, but I don't know.   There is a three or four-manual Midmer in old First Baptist Church downtown in Tampa FL ... I played that organ in high school in the 1950s .... I mentioned it on one of the lists not too long ago, and somebody in Florida told me it is still there, and being used regularly.   Those are the only two I know of ...   Cheers,   Bud-By-The-Beach   PEsch8@aol.com wrote:   > Dear pipe chat: > I am doing research about Rueben Midmer pipe organs. The OHS has a > partial > list but any information and or stop lists would be most helpful. > Thanks in advance. > Paul Eschenauer   --------------42501357915409489FB8691E Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Don't know how much help this might be, but there was a five-manual Midmer (Losh?) in the Jesuit Church (St. Francis Xavier) on the west side of = Cleveland. It was replaced in the 1950s or 1960s by a three-manual Schantz, so = Schantz might have some record of it. I imagine it was broken up, but I don't = know. <p>There is a three or four-manual Midmer in old First Baptist Church = downtown in Tampa FL ... I played that organ in high school in the 1950s ... I = mentioned it on one of the lists not too long ago, and somebody in Florida told me it is still there, and being used regularly. <p>Those are the only two I know of ... <p>Cheers, <p>Bud-By-The-Beach <p>PEsch8@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><font face=3D"Franklin Gothic Book"><font = color=3D"#0000A0"><font size=3D+0>Dear pipe chat:</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Franklin Gothic Book"><font color=3D"#0000A0"><font = size=3D+0>I am doing research about Rueben Midmer pipe organs.&nbsp; The OHS has a partial</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Franklin Gothic Book"><font color=3D"#0000A0"><font = size=3D+0>list but any information and or stop lists would be most = helpful.</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Franklin Gothic Book"><font color=3D"#0000A0"><font = size=3D+0>Thanks in advance.</font></font></font> <br><font face=3D"Franklin Gothic Book"><font color=3D"#0000A0"><font = size=3D+0>Paul Eschenauer</font></font></font></blockquote> </html>   --------------42501357915409489FB8691E--    
(back) Subject: Re: information needed about Midmer organ From: <PEsch8@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:41:14 EDT     --part1_3a.159f961a.2842f8aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Thanks for this information. Paul   --part1_3a.159f961a.2842f8aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000a0" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Franklin Gothic Book" LANG=3D"0">Thanks for = this information. <BR>Paul</FONT></HTML>   --part1_3a.159f961a.2842f8aa_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 08:37:54 +0800   And Buxtehude, and Pachelbel - the list is endless. Bob E.   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Jack: > > I can name the most prominent organist in this whole discussion > who never ever so much as touched a piano, are you ready for this > J.S. BACH. It wasn't invented yet! > > Ron Severin > > PS Beethoven did, but was never ever considered an organist, he > was a pianist and composer. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE: http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:06:17 EDT   Hi Bob:   I hope you are refering to Glenn Gould. As far as his Bach playing is concerned, he played about as authentically as Elvis was able to sing! Both followed their own drummer. I guess that would make Elvis a classical artist and musician.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:17:52 EDT   Dear Great Bud by the Expressway,   Mozart did write out his organ music for a musical clock, that had pipes. Grand it was too. As for Beethoven, the organ was such a small part of his career, it is never mentioned in most of his biographies. Let's say he touched an organ on occasion, but the piano was his instrument.   I believe the present discussion revolves around the fact or fiction that unless a person possesses a piano background, he is a lousy organist. I say balderdash!   Glenn Gould was a stacatto piano player, nothing else and in my book very un-Bach-like, and quite unmusical. It was all 50's 60's schtick as far as music is concerned. More of the Emperors new clothes.   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:17:15 -0500   If you saw this on PIPORG-L, please hit your delete button. This is = mainly for Bud's benefit, to thank him and find out what I did wrong!   Glenda Sutton     Order of Service Solemnization of Matrimony Deirdre and Andrew Miller Saturday, May 26, 2001 Church of the Resurrection (UECNA) Shalimar, Florida   Service: Willan [sans Gloria - Old Scottish Chant - a blast from the past for me!]   Prelude music: Jesu, joy of man's desiring - Bach Rhosymedre - Vaughan Williams Melodia serena - Handel Callahan's setting of Come down, O Love Divine (Down Ampney) plus text   Processional: Overture from The Royal Fireworks - Handel   Service - solemnization of matrimony - p. 300 Seating of bride and groom - Callahan's setting of Veni, Creator Spiritus Holy Communion - p. 67 Summary of the Law Three-Fold Kyrie Hymn 709 Versicles Collect Epistle Gradual Hymn 214 - O perfect love Gloria Tibi, Hymn 730 Gospel Gloria Tibi, Hymn 730 Nicene Creed - said Prayers for the State of Christ's Church General Confession Absolution Comfortable Words Sursum Corda - said Sanctus Hymn 711 Prayer of Consecration The Lord's Prayer Prayer of Humble Access Agnus Dei Hymn 712 Communion - soft music: Ubi caritas - Durufle Love divine, all loves excelling (Hyfrydol) Praise, my soul, the King of heaven (Lauda anima) My song is love unknown (Love unknown)   Post-Communion Prayer Gloria - Hymnal 739 Blessing Recessional/postlude - Joyful, joyful, we adore thee (Hymn to Joy) Toccata in G - Dubois   I chose fairly simple fare, in order to concentrate on getting the Hammond gizmos right and make it smooth and meaningful for the bride. The music = was largely from her list of favorites - she grew up an acolyte at my church.   All went smoothly, except for two small problems. In the middle of the Rhosymedre a sudden draught grabbed and took off some of the music. = Someone finally retrieved the pages, but I had to pretend I had this music = memorized and keep going. Secondly, when I played the Veni Creator Spiritus = suddenly all the vibrato, tremulo and awful Hammondy stuff came on by itself. I didn't know where it came from or how to stop it (thank God it was only a few seconds of music). How did I do that? I had the volume pedal at halfway point, and don't think I touched any of alleged thingies on either side of the pedal. Cutting the volume pedal all the way down did not mitigate the damage. I had the setting I had practiced over and over. It sounded like I had decided to strike up "Take me out to the ball game". I actually cut the machine off afterward, and back on, praying that when we got to the Kyrie all would be well. No other problems occurred.   Everyone there was surprised that I knew the service and the settings, but it all came back to me from my college days while filling in at St. Agatha's. During this experience I realized that I had been nursing some resentment that all my life my gigs were the small time jobs no one else wanted, on run-down instruments in little churches. But I realized that = is exactly what God called me to do, and what my father's dream was - that I would be a church musician and help others in need. The congregation was = so appreciative - their elderly organist was out due to some major surgery, = and the substitute is also elderly. Several told me they had never heard such beautiful music or the instrument sound so good. No, I won't ever play Carnegie Hall, but seeing that little girl, now all grown up, off in style was as great an experience, I guess. She was a gorgeous bride.   Thanks so much, Bud and others, for the step-by-step instructions and registration suggestions. Hope I will never need them again!   Glenda Sutton          
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, The Modern Piano, an American invention. From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 21:32:36 EDT   Dear Bud,   In 1709 Bartolommeo Cristofiori invented a hammered harpsichord known as a gravicembalo col piano e forte, which means a harpsichord with soft and loud.   In 1821, a very long time later, Sebastian Erard improved the action.   In 1825 Alpheus Babcock invented a large cast iron frame making it possible for multiple strings. Babcock was an American.   In 1855 Henry Steinway moved to the US from Germany and combined all the previous elements into the piano we know today. Horray for the USA. That's a long time after Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.   I wonder how all those organists from Bach to Franch coped without a real Piano until it was finally made manifest on American soil.   You all have a great day!   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:16:06 -0700       Glenda wrote:   > If you saw this on PIPORG-L, please hit your delete button. This is = mainly > for Bud's benefit, to thank him and find out what I did wrong! > > Glenda Sutton > > when I played the Veni Creator Spiritus suddenly > all the vibrato, tremulo and awful Hammondy stuff came on by itself. I > didn't know where it came from or how to stop it (thank God it was only = a > few seconds of music). How did I do that? I had the volume pedal at > halfway point, and don't think I touched any of alleged thingies on = either > side of the pedal. Cutting the volume pedal all the way down did not > mitigate the damage. I had the setting I had practiced over and over. = It > sounded like I had decided to strike up "Take me out to the ball game". = I > actually cut the machine off afterward, and back on, praying that when = we > got to the Kyrie all would be well. No other problems occurred. >   I can't imagine, unless that model DOES have a "Vibrato On Frenzy" or = "Leslie To Music Rack" switch on the left-hand side of the expression pedal ... my = Hamzuki did ... various Hammonds had various switches attached to the expression = pedal that did various things ... I forgot to warn you about that ... I had mine disconnected (grin). If it DID have such a switch, it doesn't take much to = set it off, and you wouldn't necessarily feel it. Sorry about that (grin) ... = OTOH, it could have been simply gremlins ... but I've never had a Hammond go to = V-3 by ITSELF (grin).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:12:23 +0800   Hi Ron. I have never heard Glenn Gould. All I know about him is what I have read in this list. Bob E.   RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Bob: > > I hope you are refering to Glenn Gould. As far as his Bach playing > is concerned, he played about as authentically as Elvis was able > to sing! Both followed their own drummer. I guess that would make > Elvis a classical artist and musician. > > Ron Severin > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE: http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: The Severance Chamber From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:38:11 -0400   On Wed. 5/23/01 I posted the following announcement: ---------------------------------------------------- On Thursday, May 31, I will have the honor and privilege to attend a performance of the Cleveland Orchestra and the Norton Memorial Organ in performance of Saint-Saens "Organ Symphony" and Jongen "Symphonie Concertante.   The unique aspect of this concert experience is I have been invited to attend from behind the facade, in the pipe chamber. Frankly, I get shiver chills just thinking about feeling the sound waves. To view the inner workings of the instrument during the dynamics of performance will   be an awesome experience. ---------------------------------------------------   Due to many the replies to this post expressing concern for my hearing, and suggesting ear protection be worn, I thought perhaps some clarification was indicated. Although I will have the chance to visit the entire organ prior to the concert, my position during the performance places me between the pipe chamber and behind the orchestra, not actually inside the chamber, hence "behind the facade". I will be positioned outside the swell enclosures and experience sound levels no higher than the orchestra members encounter whenever playing in concerti with the organ. My host for this organ adventure is Mr. Ken List of the Schantz Organ Company who is the Tonal Director for the restoration work done by Schantz on this magnificent E.M. Skinner instrument. He has attended every concert since the completion of the restoration, from the same position behind the facade that I will be placed for the concert. I have every confidence that Mr. List would never expose his own most valuable hearing to sound levels that are at all dangerous. Another point that seems to have been overlooked is, the music reaches fortissimo levels for short periods only. I will not be exposed to the kind of sustained high db levels that damage hearing. I look most forward to hearing the more soft stops of Mr. Skinner's design in such close proximity. So, thank you to all who were concerned for my hearing, and I look forward to giving you a detailed report after the concert. To keep from boring those who think this adventure is a waste of time, I will be simply posting a website link that interested parties can visit, complete with pictures. I thank Mr. Ken List and the Schantz Organ Company for giving me this educational experience from such a unique perspective. I think it will be the best seat in the house.   Cheers Mike Gettelman    
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:56:23 -0400   Although I am not a Canadian, I live in Canada, and my sense is that Glenn =   Gould was, and still is, hyped up by Canadian Nationalistic Pride. = Whoever said that his playing of Bach was superb, is totally out of touch with the =   performance of Bach.   Having said that, I remember that at the Radio Station where I did a = weekly organ programme there was an LP of Glenn Gould playing Bach on the organ, = - and it was aired quite a lot in the 15 years of my programme.   Partly because I had to play the legally required 10% Canadian Content, which helped out the filling in of the log sheets, and partly because I = was always so amazed that Glenn Gould played an organ far better than he ever played a piano! I suspect that he didn't have his nose only a few inches above the keyboard either!   Any one who hasn't heard Glenn Gould hasn't missed much, - other than this =   LP that we had.   Just my two penn'orth!   Bob Conway     At 10:12 AM 5/28/01 +0800, you wrote: >Hi Ron. I have never heard Glenn Gould. All I know about him is what I >have read in this list. >Bob E. > >RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > > > > Hi Bob: > > > > I hope you are refering to Glenn Gould. As far as his Bach playing > > is concerned, he played about as authentically as Elvis was able > > to sing! Both followed their own drummer. I guess that would make > > Elvis a classical artist and musician. > > > > Ron Severin > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Cross-posted - The Hammond Wedding From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:11:44 -0500   The father of my godchildren was sitting on the back pew, and turned = around and looked at me as if to say, "That's not a very funny joke." I just shrugged my shoulders in despair.   If anyone else noticed it (it seemed awfully noticeable to me - I was cringing), he/she/they was/were generous enough not to mention it. The = lay reader had wanted me to play "Twist and Shout" - I guess he got the Pentecostal version!   The handbook for this model (I think the book called it a Concorde 2300, circa 1970s) alluded to some little switches on the sides of the = expression pedal, but I didn't see them or manage to activate anything in rehearsal, = so concluded (probably wrongly) that they weren't there or had been deactivated.   Oh, well, that's why one always needs the gin stop, even on a Hammond!   Glenda (who has been rediscovering good bourbon lately)      
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: <AMADPoet@aol.com> Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 02:50:38 EDT   In a message dated 5/27/01 5:52:25 PM Central Daylight Time, jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com writes:   << I've never seen any of them throw their bodies at the piano. In fact, I've seen absolute control and economy of motion. >>   Have you ever watched Ivo Pogorelich? He tries to control himself, but he still looks like he's going to put his head through the soundboard. I = think the original poster was trying to say that a pianist plays with his/her entire body because he/she is playing a percussion instrument. Indeed the pianist HAS to play this way to avoid seriously injuring their hands and wrists. An organist obviously does not play a percussion instrument, and therefore uses his/her body in a different manner; i.e., we're too busy running our feet up and down the pedals and changing manuals or couplers = to put any energy into the remainder of our torso. HEEHEE   Mandy