PipeChat Digest #2133 - Wednesday, May 30, 2001
 
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: piano technique
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: piano technique VS Tracker
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Fw: piano vs. organ technique
  by "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net>
for sale (cross-posted)
  by <Victorgan@aol.com>
Re: Choir Size
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Venice
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Venice
  by "Charles Harder" <Charder@ties.k12.mn.us>
Re: piano technique
  by "Marilyn Oakes" <marilynoakes@yahoo.com>
music search
  by "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net>
ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Fingering Frolics
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by <JamesM8336@aol.com>
Re: Fingering Frolics
  by <JFHoppeNO@aol.com>
Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other  Dilemmas
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:08:52 -0700 (PDT)   Well, I disagree,plain and simple. I think piano IS a must for an organist. if you have to play it in a chpor rehearsal, in church, wherever, than you should learn to play it beautifully....and like a good pianist. It also DOES make you a better organist.   --- Carlo Pietroniro <organist@total.net> wrote: > maybe the reason for Diane saying that > was...........it's true. Don't > forget, at the time, I was already an accomplished > organist. The year I > spent with her was not during my formative years as > an organist. It wasn't > up to her to go back in time and un-do something, if > there was anything TO > un-do. > > Piano is NOT a must when taking organ. If it works > for one person, then > great. However, that rule should not be applied to > everyone. If it helps > some people, that doesn't mean everyone needs it. > > Carlo > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: piano technique From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT)   The Sandor method is one of many techniques. I do know a Sandor student who studied with him at Indiana for many years. She produced a VERY harsh sound. It probably just didn't work for her as well as others. There are many other methods. Different strokes for different folks.   --- Marilyn Oakes <marilynoakes@yahoo.com> wrote: > Listmates - <sound produced by wrists and hands> > Anybody else on the board study Sandor technique > besides me?? Please speak up!! > > In the Sandor piano method, sound is produced by > grasping the keys in a microscopic motion, like > taking > hold of an orange. It follows the natural physiology > of the hand - the thumb & pinkie grasp inward and > down. Pinkie is very weak on its so, so stays > straight > to compensate, not even uncommon to use 4 & 5 as a > single unit for certain passages. Even though Sandor > represented a complete technical change for me, it > took only about two weeks to completely incorporate > Sandor techniques because it's so physiologically > natural. It cooperates with how God engineered the > human body to work. > > Harsh sounds are produced when pianists strike the > keys straight down, and it has little to do with > where > the sound originates. Using the Sandor technique, > the > motion originates in the big muscles in the back, > the > arm functions as a single unit (think hollow tube) > and > can produce a VERY big sound on the piano without a > single harsh note. In fact, my teacher, Dr. Stark, > was > known for his shimmering, silvery touch. (After one > particularly strident pianist played, Dr. Stark > walked > up to the piano on stage, played a few silvery > chords, > and remarked to no one in particular, "Well, no > permanent damage done!" and walked off. I was > standing > near the stage with another music student and we > heard his remark. We were startled, because Dr. > Stark > is the quintessential gentleman.) > > The concept of grasping a note instead of striking > it > is one that even very young students can understand. > I > have one 7 yo piano student who can hear how > different > his piano sounds depending on his technique. > > How the concept of grasping and use of the whole arm > > translates to the organ is CONTROL, phrasing, and > articulation. The hitch is that, because of the > pedal > board, I have to sit a little too close to the > keyboards for my optimum physiologic comfort. I have > little room to adjust. I adjust, anyway. Sometimes > the > difference is leaning back a fraction. I can't play > the 2nd variation in the Durufle Veni Creator (the > music box variation) if I'm sitting too close but > there is no pedal line, so I can lean back as far as > I > need to do. If I'm having technical trouble with a > passage, 99 times out of 100, it is some combination > of muscle tension, hand position, or perfecting my > lean.<g> > > One's approach to the keyboard is very subjective. > Sam > Batt used to say (tongue in cheek) that a good > fingering works as well as a bad fingering, if you > practice long enough. The same is true of technical > systems. However, it seems to me that technical > systems that cooperate with science and nature are > more efficient and require less time to manage than > an > unnatural system. At least, that has been my > experience and observation. > > And I have also observed that the organists who so > strongly object to piano facility as a requirement > for > organ performance usually have little background in > piano or technical facility. I'm waiting for an > exception to that observation to present itself. I > TEACH piano for a college conservatory division, and > I'm very partial to piano.<g> > > Citing JSB is a waggish answer to the challenge to > name a top organist without strong piano background. > I'm still waiting to hear the names of all the > CURRENT > organists who play the great technical master works > without strong piano background. (Technical master > works =3D Dupre Preludes & Fugues, Durufle Suite or > Veni > Creator, Reubke 94th Psalm, Vierne & Widor organ > symphonies, Reger fantasies, etc.) > > The ability to think logically and critically when > examining subjective matters is a useful skill in > any > profession. Just a thought. > > Marilyn T. Oakes > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Marilyn T. Oakes, CRC, LPC, CLCP, Certified Pain > Practitioner > Rehabilitation Consultants, Inc. > P.O. Box 43254 > Birmingham, Alabama USA 35243-0254 > Web Site: www.oakes.org, email: marilyn@oakes.org > -or- marilynoakes@yahoo.com > Life Care Planning, Pediatric Life Care Planning, > Vocational Assessment, Chronic Pain Research & > Consultation > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great > prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: piano technique VS Tracker From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 03:18:37 -0700 (PDT)   Sorry Ron, but I completely disagree with you here. here. The piano does not emphasis a completely different set of anything. Speak to a great organist about the importance of the piano in organ technique. Virgil Fox spoke about it in a lengthy two-part interview in TAO (then know as MUSIC magazine). He said he practiced Czerny exercises and scales everyday before touching the organ. Friends of his have told me that he loved playing opera scores and piano repertoire on the piano as well. And remember Gillian Weir? She used to be completely a pianist before taking up the organ. She was playing Rachmaninoff concertos. Ask her sometime about the importance of the piano to the organist.   --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > Hi Neil: > > I think you will agree that the tracker reed or pipe > organ can do > more toward a good organ technique. The fingers are > strengthened > and all the necessary pathways are emphasized. I > practiced on > an Estey Reed Organ 2M and Ped for over 20 years. I > believe that > was most beneficial. The legato touch gained thereby > has sustained > my technique to this very day. The keys were a bit > stiffer when more > stops were drawn with couplers. It was a terrific > practice organ. > > The piano emphasises a different set of actions from > organ playing. > Infact the only thing both instruments have in > common is the keyboard. > > Ron Severin > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Fw: piano vs. organ technique From: "VEAGUE" <dutchorgan@svs.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 05:21:07 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>     > Along with that Marilyn, I have always wanted to track all the various brain > functions going on when someone is singing in a choir. Just thinking about > all the various components boggles my mind. > > Neil B     .....yeah, like trying to remember if you turned-off the bath tub water upstairs and if you locked the front door when you left.   Rick    
(back) Subject: for sale (cross-posted) From: <Victorgan@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:51:01 EDT   Anyone interested?   I have 4 OSI primaries, built as replacements for MPM chests (diatonic): = 3) 61 note, 1) 73 note. Less than 10 years old, excellent condition, with = spare magnets. $500 for all 4.   Vic  
(back) Subject: Re: Choir Size From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:10:20 +0800   Advanced age John? How advanced? Bob E.   > jdoney wrote: >. Now (at > my advanced age) I am content to play the organ ( 4 manual = Rodgers),    
(back) Subject: Venice From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:21:19 -0400   I believe the small organ, brought into San Marco by E. Power Biggs, for his recording, was a 1969 Rieger Orgelbau tracker of 2M. 14R. which now exists in the chapel at St. Joseph Trappist Abbey in Spencer MA, USA.   Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:19:13 +0800   I don't think anyone is arguing against the claim that plenty of piano practice may make you a better organist. Any kind of keyboard practice could achieve that. It is the "must" that worries me. I just don't agree. If you follow that line of thinking there were no good organists before the invention of the modern piano, and that is an absurdity. Bach and his contemporaries would certainly have played harpsichord or similar as well as the organ but the touch of the harpsichord is much like the touch of a good tracker organ and nothing like the touch of a piano. Sorry, Jackson, I don't agree and neither does history. Bob E.   "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > Well, I disagree,plain and simple. I think piano IS a > must for an organist.    
(back) Subject: Re: Venice From: "Charles Harder" <Charder@ties.k12.mn.us> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:12:19 -0600   The organ used in the recording was lent by the Rieger Compnay of Austria. "It consists of 10 stops, voiced in the Italian manner, distributed over two manuals and pedals"   "Thre stops only - 8",4', and Mixture, supported by the pedal - provide the "tutti" heard in the Intonations. In""Deus qui Beatum Marcum" a portative by Ruffati is also heard."   Taken from the Record Jacket "The Glory of Gabrielli."   Charles Harder  
(back) Subject: Re: piano technique From: "Marilyn Oakes" <marilynoakes@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:30:57 -0700 (PDT)   Listmates - Lucien Stark was Chairman of Keyboard Studies at Peabody College (now part of Vanderbilt University) in Nashville, then moved to the same position at the University of Kentucky, from which he retired. He is the most gracious, elegant pianist I've ever heard, and a quintessential gentleman. I would have never graduated without him, and I probably should track him down and thank him again.   To Stephen Karr: Whew. Your teacher is doing it the hard way, playing all the pieces you cited without piano technique. As Sam Batt said, a good fingering works as well as a bad fingering, if one practices long enough. To paraphrase, the same is true of technical approaches.   I played the Durufle Requiem, with and without an orchestra, and it is nowhere near as difficult as the Veni Creator. I haven't played the Suite, but it sounds to me like the same level as the Veni Creator. The piece that stopped me dead in my tracks in graduate school was the Dupre g-minor Prelude & Fugue. Try as I might, I couldn't get the Prelude fast enough, until Dr. Stark straightened out my technique. My class was very social and we always invited the faculty. I was complaining about my technical difficulties, and after several drinks, Dr. Stark said, "You use yourself all wrong." I pressed him for an explanation, and then decided to register for coaching lessons as a keyboard elective. The great irony is that my organ teacher was a superlative pianist but never mentioned piano or piano technique as an option. Dr. Stark changed my musical life.   RE: historic trackers. In my very limited experience, piano technique works to the extent that the tracker touch is sensitive. If the tracker touch is extremely sensitive, then it doesn't work at all. The trackers at Canterbury Chapel at the University of Alabama, Canterbury UMC Chapel (Birmingham), and Our Lady of Sorrows in Birmingham all work fine with piano touch. The tracker in Robert Clark's studio at Arizona State is hyperhypersensitive and does not. The danged thing reduced me to tears. The slightest motion it didn't like would make it "chirp" which was not the correct sound. When I was out there (early 80s), Mr. Clark was on an early music toot, flat fingers, 2-3-4 fingering, and music in which I wasn't even remotely interested. After what I had been through already to straighten out my technique, more technical change was a very scary idea, so I didn't. Mr. Clark is an incredible player and I respect him a lot, but immersing myself in that period was not attractive to me.   I guess the perfect player is one who can do Sandor for the big pieces and flat-fingered 2-3-4 for the early pieces.<g>   Marilyn T. Oakes                                   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Marilyn T. Oakes, CRC, LPC, CLCP, Certified Pain Practitioner Rehabilitation Consultants, Inc. P.O. Box 43254 Birmingham, Alabama USA 35243-0254 Web Site: www.oakes.org, email: marilyn@oakes.org -or- = marilynoakes@yahoo.com Life Care Planning, Pediatric Life Care Planning, Vocational Assessment, Chronic Pain Research & Consultation   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: music search From: "Robert Eversman" <highnote@mhtc.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:58:33 -0500   I have back ordered 2 copies of Flor Peeters vocal solo setting of The Lord's Prayer LOW VOICE Peters Ed 6201C. They will not arrive for 3 weeks and I want to perform this a week from Sunday. Does anyone have this in their collection ? I need a copy faxed to me and will destroy it as soon as the music arrives from the publisher. I will NOT cancel the order upon receipt. Please e mail me privately at highnote@mhtc.net so as not to interupt the flow of normal pipechating. Thanks, Robert      
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:32:49 -0700 (PDT)   Bob,again, you need to read my letter which regards current technical demands as growing out of 19th century piano repertoire and the fact that all organ composers of that period were also wonderful pianists.   So yes, an organist of the 20TH CENTURY must be able to negotiate the technical demands of repertoire composed in the past 150 years. We are not and have not been discussing Bach or his contemporaries. We have been discussing organ playing of our time.   So yes, history does bear it out. A firm technical background in piano is essential and every great organist of our time will be in agreement. Want proof? Call David Higgs, Larry Smith, Marilyn Keiser, Alexander Frey, Gillian Weir, Robert Glasgow, Marilyn Mason, Richard Morris etc. They all practice piano and Frey has a full time career on both as do a few others. Mason once told me she practices piano every day and Higgs makes his students do the same. You can't practice scales successfully on an organ as you can a piano. There is much more to it than simply pushing down keys. It does separate those of the highest level.   --- Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> wrote: > I don't think anyone is arguing against the claim > that plenty of piano > practice may make you a better organist. Any kind of > keyboard practice > could achieve that. It is the "must" that worries > me. I just don't > agree. If you follow that line of thinking there > were no good organists > before the invention of the modern piano, and that > is an absurdity. > Bach and his contemporaries would certainly have > played harpsichord or > similar as well as the organ but the touch of the > harpsichord is much > like the touch of a good tracker organ and nothing > like the touch of a > piano. > Sorry, Jackson, I don't agree and neither does > history. > Bob E. > > "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > > > Well, I disagree,plain and simple. I think piano > IS a > > must for an organist. > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Carlo Pietroniro" <organist@total.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:37:43 -0400   we have a piano here in our home, and I play it every so often, mostly for family gatherings and parties though. When it comes to playing the piano, = I like ragtime/honky-tonk music. I just love bouncing all over the keyboard. It's such fun <G>.   Carlo    
(back) Subject: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:20:03 -0500   Folks   Although this thread has been interesting we seem to be getting to the point of no return on it. Each of us have our own opinions about the necessity of piano technique and/or piano practice and i don't think anyone's mind is going to be changed by these postings. i would suggest that we drop this as a list topic unless someone has something to add that doesn't have to do with the necessity or lack thereof of piano. Some of you may wish to carry it one however via private emails.   Happy PipeChatting   David   -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Fingering Frolics From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:28:19 EDT   David (Adm) writes:   > i >would suggest that we drop this as a list topic unless someone has >something to add that doesn't have to do with the necessity or lack >thereof of piano. Some of you may wish to carry it one however via >private emails.<<     Thank you, David. My delete button was overheating.   Regards, Jim P.          
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: <JamesM8336@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:27:21 EDT     --part1_111.475dcd.2846a399_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In piano technic, whether you use mainly "fingers" or use the wieght of = the body, depends on the particular music you are performing - period, = compose, etc.   --part1_111.475dcd.2846a399_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In piano technic, = whether you use mainly "fingers" or use the wieght of the <BR>body, depends on the particular music you are performing - period, = compose, <BR>etc.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_111.475dcd.2846a399_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Fingering Frolics From: <JFHoppeNO@aol.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:32:22 EDT     --part1_75.157f4a14.2846c0e6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Thank you David. I too am tired of this topic!   Joe H.   --part1_75.157f4a14.2846c0e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thank you David. = &nbsp;I too am tired of this topic! <BR> <BR>Joe H.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_75.157f4a14.2846c0e6_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:17:02 -0700 (PDT)   Actually, I think this was one of the most stimulating and interesting threads that has been on this list for a long time. Everybody learned something new (I know I did).   --- Administrator <admin@pipechat.org> wrote: > Folks > > Although this thread has been interesting we seem to > be getting to > the point of no return on it. Each of us have our > own opinions about > the necessity of piano technique and/or piano > practice and i don't > think anyone's mind is going to be changed by these > postings. i > would suggest that we drop this as a list topic > unless someone has > something to add that doesn't have to do with the > necessity or lack > thereof of piano. Some of you may wish to carry it > one however via > private emails. > > Happy PipeChatting > > David > > -- > **************************************** > David Scribner > Owner / Co-Administrator > PipeChat > > http://www.pipechat.org > mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:25 -0400   Maybe there's a Wurlitzer in your future Carlo, heaven forbid. :-) = Mike   Carlo Pietroniro wrote:   > we have a piano here in our home, and I play it every so often, mostly = for > family gatherings and parties though. When it comes to playing the = piano, I > like ragtime/honky-tonk music. I just love bouncing all over the = keyboard. > It's such fun <G>. > > Carlo > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:35:35 -0500   At 12:20 PM 5/30/01 -0500, David wrote:   >Although this thread has been interesting ...... <snip>   >I would suggest that we drop this as a list topic unless ...... <snip>     Tim, the Co-Admin, adds:   "Or, at *least* change the subject line to something a wee bit more accurate.....!" <grin>   Happy Pipechatting...!   Tim Bovard Pipechat Co-Administrator <admin@pipechat.org> <tmbovard@arkansas.net>