PipeChat Digest #2136 - Thursday, May 31, 2001
 
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and OtherDilemmas
  by "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com>
Re: Fw: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and OtherDilemmas
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas
  by "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au>
Re: Divided Choirs
  by "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:04:29 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Roberto, My point is that the two techniques have things that work well on both instruments. Good pianists use finger substitution and other prgan techniques. Not every pianist relies on smearingeverything with the sustaingin pedal --- Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> wrote: > Jackson, I think you are missing the point. Organ > playing embodies > techniques which do not exist in piano playing for > obvious reasons. Try > legato playing with ascending chords where it is > necessary to keep > changing fingers, an important art of organ playing > particularly in the > romantic repertoire. Piano technique will not help > there since a > sustaining pedal would be used on piano. I have had > several young organ > students some of whom had piano expertise to grade 5 > level and some who > had no piano technique at all. The most advanced of > these now, and a > fine young organist, never touched a piano until he > had passed several > grades of organ examinations. He was under no > disadvantage at all as far > as I could detect. > One of the first things I had to teach the pianists > was that organ > technique was vastly different in playing much of > the organ repertoire, > except period music such as contrapuntal works and > so on, where there > was no organ legato which required frequent finger > changing in order to > achieve a smooth legato. The lack of a sustaining > pedal also causes some > difficulty at first through the need to hold down > any note or chord that > has to be sustained. This technique is not often > used on piano. > There are other points too which have to be taught > for organ playing > which are little or never used on piano. > Now I repeat I am not saying that piano technique > does not assist in > achieving good organ technique. I am saying it is > not a "must". To say > that you would have to say that Bach, Buxtehude, > Pachelbel, and dozens > of organ-playing legends could not have good organ > technique since they > had no pianos. The period does not matter. In fact > with the romantic and > contemporary repertoire organ technique is sometimes > quite different > from that used in piano playing. > This discussion seems to have started on a > merry-go-round with much > repetition. I have had my say. It is my opinion and > I cannot see any > purpose in repeating again what I have said. Finis > for me. > Bob E. > > "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > > > Bob,again, you need to read my letter which > regards > > current technical demands as growing out of 19th > > century piano repertoire and the fact that all > organ > > composers of that period were also wonderful > pianists. > > > > So yes, an organist of the 20TH CENTURY must be > able > > to negotiate the technical demands of repertoire > > composed in the past 150 years. We are not and > have > > not been discussing Bach or his contemporaries. > We > > have been discussing organ playing of our time. > > > > So yes, history does bear it out. A firm > technical > > background in piano is essential and every great > > organist of our time will be in agreement. Want > > proof? Call David Higgs, Larry Smith, Marilyn > Keiser, > > Alexander Frey, Gillian Weir, Robert Glasgow, > Marilyn > > Mason, Richard Morris etc. They all practice > piano > > and Frey has a full time career on both as do a > few > > others. Mason once told me she practices piano > every > > day and Higgs makes his students do the same. You > > can't practice scales successfully on an organ as > you > > can a piano. There is much more to it than simply > > pushing down keys. It does separate those of the > > highest level. > > > > --- Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> wrote: > > > I don't think anyone is arguing against the > claim > > > that plenty of piano > > > practice may make you a better organist. Any > kind of > > > keyboard practice > > > could achieve that. It is the "must" that > worries > > > me. I just don't > > > agree. If you follow that line of thinking there > > > were no good organists > > > before the invention of the modern piano, and > that > > > is an absurdity. > > > Bach and his contemporaries would certainly have > > > played harpsichord or > > > similar as well as the organ but the touch of > the > > > harpsichord is much > > > like the touch of a good tracker organ and > nothing > > > like the touch of a > > > piano. > > > Sorry, Jackson, I don't agree and neither does > > > history. > > > Bob E. > > > > > > "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, I disagree,plain and simple. I think > piano > > > IS a > > > > must for an organist. > > > > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > > > organs & related topics > > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail > - only $35 > > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE: http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and OtherDilemmas From: "Jackson R. Williams II" <jackwilliams_1999@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:07:03 -0700 (PDT)   What do you mean you "interevened"? If you didn't like it, you could have addressed that to all of us rather than being so covert. Oh Stanley, I'm so dissapointed. And to think that we've come this far in your relationship! (lol)   --- Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > Bob Elms wrote: > > > > I have sinned! I wrote my last missive on piano > technique, or lack > > thereof, BEFORE I read the Administrator's > suggestion. My apologies, > > David. > > Bob Elms. > > Bob, > Fortunately, several of we, your list friends > intervened with the > list owners and they stopped the black helicopter > mission to Australia. > > So, be not afraid.. > > ..of course "Chopsticks" with exquisite sublety of > touch can be very > effective in piano recitals and is a > > <COPTER BLADES OVERHEAD> > > Aieeeee! > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: Fw: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 06:44:56 -0400       VEAGUE wrote:   > > Maybe there's a Wurlitzer in your future Carlo, heaven forbid. :-) > Mike > > > > > ......and what's wrong with WurliTzer? > > Rick > > > > Mike Writes   Nothing, it's one of my favorite instruments indeed Rick. I was wondering how Carlos might feel about it and perhaps had my tongue a bit too deep in the cheek. Mike      
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and OtherDilemmas From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:36:09 +0800   Oh! Then that was not the Admin 'copter??? I wonder who it was! Bob E.   Stanley Lowkis wrote: > Bob, > Fortunately, several of we, your list friends intervened with the > list owners and they stopped the black helicopter mission to Australia. > So, be not afraid..   > <COPTER BLADES OVERHEAD> > Aieeeee! >    
(back) Subject: Re: Easy Bach, Historical Fingering and Other Dilemmas From: "Bob Elms" <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:09:31 +0800   Wow Jackson! I had to print that out on a toilet roll!! To preserve the sanity of the readers I have deleted most of it!!! Bob E. "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > Dear Roberto, > My point is that the two techniques have things that > work well on both instruments. Good pianists use > finger substitution and other prgan techniques. Not > every pianist relies on smearingeverything with the > sustaingin pedal > --- Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> wrote: > > Jackson, I think you are missing the point. Organ > > playing embodies > > techniques which do not exist in piano playing for > > obvious reasons. Try > > legato playing with ascending chords where it is > > necessary to keep > > changing fingers, an important art of organ playing > > particularly in the > > romantic repertoire. Piano technique will not help > > there since a > > sustaining pedal would be used on piano. I have had > > several young organ > > students some of whom had piano expertise to grade 5 > > level and some who > > had no piano technique at all. The most advanced of > > these now, and a > > fine young organist, never touched a piano until he > > had passed several > > grades of organ examinations. He was under no > > disadvantage at all as far > > as I could detect. > > One of the first things I had to teach the pianists > > was that organ > > technique was vastly different in playing much of > > the organ repertoire, > > except period music such as contrapuntal works and > > so on, where there > > was no organ legato which required frequent finger > > changing in order to > > achieve a smooth legato. The lack of a sustaining > > pedal also causes some > > difficulty at first through the need to hold down > > any note or chord that > > has to be sustained. This technique is not often > > used on piano. > > There are other points too which have to be taught > > for organ playing > > which are little or never used on piano. > > Now I repeat I am not saying that piano technique > > does not assist in > > achieving good organ technique. I am saying it is > > not a "must". To say > > that you would have to say that Bach, Buxtehude, > > Pachelbel, and dozens > > of organ-playing legends could not have good organ > > technique since they > > had no pianos. The period does not matter. In fact > > with the romantic and > > contemporary repertoire organ technique is sometimes > > quite different > > from that used in piano playing. > > This discussion seems to have started on a > > merry-go-round with much > > repetition. I have had my say. It is my opinion and > > I cannot see any > > purpose in repeating again what I have said. Finis > > for me. > > Bob E. > > > > "Jackson R. Williams II" wrote: > > > > > > Bob,again, you need to read my letter which > > regards > > > current technical demands as growing out of 19th > > > century piano repertoire and the fact that all > > organ > > > composers of that period were also wonderful > > pianists. > > > > > > So yes, an organist of the 20TH CENTURY must be > > able > > > to negotiate the technical demands of repertoire > > > composed in the past 150 years. We are not and > > have > > > not been discussing Bach or his contemporaries. > > We > > > have been discussing organ playing of our time. > > > > > > So yes, history does bear it out. A firm > > technical > > > background in piano is essential and every great > > > organist of our time will be in agreement. Want > > > proof? Call David Higgs, Larry Smith, Marilyn > > Keiser, > > > Alexander Frey, Gillian Weir, Robert Glasgow, > > Marilyn > > > Mason, Richard Morris etc. They all practice > > piano > > > and Frey has a full time career on both as do a > > few > > > others. Mason once told me she practices piano > > every > > > day and Higgs makes his students do the same. You > > > can't practice scales successfully on an organ as > > you > > > can a piano. There is much more to it than simply > > > pushing down keys. It does separate those of the > > > highest level. > > > > > > --- Bob Elms <elmsr@albanyis.com.au> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone is arguing against the > > claim > > > > that plenty of piano > > > > practice may make you a better organist. Any > > kind of > > > > keyboard practice > > > > could achieve that. It is the "must" that > > worries > > > > me. I just don't > > > > agree. If you follow that line of thinking there > > > > were no good organists > > > > before the invention of the modern piano, and > > that > > > > is an absurdity. > > > > Bach and his contemporaries would certainly have > > > > played harpsichord or > > > > similar as well as the organ but the touch of > > the > > > > harpsichord is much > > > > like the touch of a good tracker organ and > > nothing > > > > like the touch of a > > > > piano. etc., etc., etc.    
(back) Subject: Re: Divided Choirs From: "Alan Freed" <afreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:23:29 -0400   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --MS_Mac_OE_3074163810_2125801_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit   What a hoot, Malcolm.   And I wonder whether the name of Healey Willan fits into the conversation about double choirs.   I'm thinking of his "Apostrophe to the Heavenly Host," which is such a gorgeous thing.   Alan   From: ManderUSA@aol.com Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 21:10:08 EDT To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Divided Choirs   I agreed to do one of these, with slides and musical examples and chat about the Venetian musical tradition as found at San Marco. I turned in my topic, and found it announced later in the week = as "Malcolm Wechsler will discuss music on the planet Venus!"     --MS_Mac_OE_3074163810_2125801_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Divided Choirs</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> What a hoot, Malcolm.<BR> <BR> And I wonder whether the name of Healey Willan fits into the conversation = a=3D bout double choirs.<BR> <BR> I'm thinking of his &quot;Apostrophe to the Heavenly Host,&quot; which is = s=3D uch a gorgeous thing.<BR> <BR> Alan<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <B>From: </B>ManderUSA@aol.com<BR> <B>Reply-To: </B>&quot;PipeChat&quot; &lt;pipechat@pipechat.org&gt;<BR> <B>Date: </B>Tue, 29 May 2001 21:10:08 EDT<BR> <B>To: </B>pipechat@pipechat.org<BR> <B>Subject: </B>Divided Choirs<BR> <BR> <FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">I agreed to do one of these, with slides and <BR> musical examples and chat about the Venetian musical tradition as found at = =3D <BR> San Marco. I turned in my topic, and found it announced later in the week = a=3D s <BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">&quot;Malcolm Wechsler will = discuss =3D music on the planet Venus!&quot; <BR> </FONT> </BODY> </HTML>     --MS_Mac_OE_3074163810_2125801_MIME_Part--