PipeChat Digest #2472 - Thursday, November 1, 2001
 
Re: membership in the parish--off topic, sort of long
  by "BridgewaterUMC Director of Music" <bridgewatermusic@hotmail.c
RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Membership in the parish
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Re[4]: Membership in the parish
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Membership in the parish
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Re[4]: Membership in the parish
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish
  by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu>
Concert w/ 2 organs, 2 organists
  by <FLTim@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: membership in the parish--off topic, sort of long From: "BridgewaterUMC Director of Music" <bridgewatermusic@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:40:42 -0500     >With all the talk of how could a person serve in a church with a = different >theological perspective, it makes me think why would you want to serve in = a >church that had a different viewpoint that your own?   Monty: I am exactly in this position, in spades. I am a Roman Catholic convert = who is also an ordained Deacon, serving full time in a United MEthodist = Church. I serve here because the opening occured at a time in my life when I could =   be of service to this congregation and the ministry needs they had and my strengths match quite well. It does have its difficulties, but if we are = to work for unity and break down the barriers of theological misunderstanding,then we can only do so by our witness.   >>To me, church work is more than just a job....it is a ministry. I just >>would >not be happy if I had to repress my own religious convictions. I would >suspect that a person of more liberal thought would not enjoy working in = an >Evangelical church, There is much I disagree with in this congregation, especially on the = matter of sacraments and order. However, these are people whom I believe are on = a true journey toward God and something about my minstry is helpful to them. = I can put away my own religious needs for a few hours on Sunday morning to =   help others. Even if it does mean going to mass late on Sunday night. Im actually not all that happy in my own tradition, and would really feel more comfort in a high episicopal or anglo cathoic church, but thats a different matter.   All the best   Deacon Craig     _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp    
(back) Subject: RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:43:04 -0500   >Yes and no. Church music is more than a job. It's more than music. = It's also being sensitive to God's leading in a particular worship experience. =   Yes, I think so, too. BUT--   To be consistent, wouldn't you need to be equally finicky about the = personal beliefs of all the *composers* whose music you deigned to use in your services? If they were merely crafted well on musical terms without being inspired by God however you define Him (or Her?) they would fail the test above. No sense paying a mere performer to try to make a silk purse out = of a sow's ear.   One composer you'd have to blacklist right away, in that case, would be = Ned Rorem, who, despite the eloquence of his music on Christian texts, tells = us that he is an atheist. Paul Spicer in his biography claims that Howells = was also an atheist (I concur at least with George Guest and others, however, who would say that agnostic is more like it. Further, one friend of mine noted that it would be a very peculiar sort of agnostic who chose to = attend evensong nearly every Sunday at Westminster Abbey.) The nature of Vaughan Williams's faith is also elusive, as is Beethoven's.   What about Roman Catholics? Many Protestants would explain how personal faith rather than organizational affiliation makes one a Christian; therefore, at least since the Reformation, adherence to an organization professing the contrary demonstrated that one lacked the personal faith required. In this case Mozart, Schubert, Gounod, and Dubois would have to = go by the board-- just to name a few that were commonly heard in Protestant churches in those lax, decadent days about 80-100 years ago.   Hmm, maybe publishers' catalogs should include statements of belief from = all the composers of the church music they carry, so that customers can be certain they are buying nothing without the right kind of inspiration.   Paul    
(back) Subject: RE: Membership in the parish From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:56:59 -0500   >When organists/church musicians say it doesn't matter what they believe = or do outside "performance" hours as long as they do their performance well, then how about it not mattering what the clergy do or believe, provided = they can say the liturgy nicely, read prayers well, and make up a sermon that sounds "orthodox" and is not insulting or likely to press buttons? You'd hate it, and so would I, and the church would deserve to die.     The most objective answer as to why the clergy must be believers is that they are ordained. In order to attain to that status, they must make certain declarations and vows. It has been thus for centuries, and = probably from the very beginning. (S. Paul advises S. Timothy as to qualifications for clergy and amonishes him, "Lay hands suddenly on no man"). It is an indelible sacrament, a lifelong commitment. Hence, the church has always accorded a certain respect to all ordained, and felt a responsibility towards them, even if they are not currently employed.   If a similar status existed for church musicians, I might agree with you; but it does not. One day you can hold a position as organist at the grandest cathedral in the country. The next day, as far as the church is concerned, you can be a nobody.   Paul      
(back) Subject: Re: Re[4]: Membership in the parish From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:42:45 EST     --part1_15b.345dace.2911ae35_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 10/31/01 11:45:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes:     > To be consistent, wouldn't you need to be equally finicky about the = personal > beliefs of all the *composers* whose music you deigned to use in your > services?   I think this comment is beginning to show the relative absurdity to which this thread has risen. All deep theological issues aside, I firmly = believe from my own experience as well as the experiences of many of my friends = and colleages that there are two primary reasons that come into play when an organist/director considers a job: the organ and the money, in either = order -- for me, it's the organ.   I'm intelligent and educated enough to "be" a Presbyterian or a Baptist or = a Methodist. I've played in Christian Science churches and enjoyed them = very much. I've worked in RC parishes and most of the personal difficulties = I've felt were because they were NOT as catholic as I feel I am, theologically = or liturgically.   As an Episcopalian, there are sufficient problems within the church, again =   liturgicall and theologically, that sometimes I question if I can put up = with the Episcopal church any more or not. But where else is there to work if =   you're going to be a church musician. No church is perfect. Toss in = the politics and personalities and it really makes one wonder.   Recently, churches have begun the great "are you saved" inquisition..... =   "do you buhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve in JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYSUS" question as = they toss the candidates resume aside. I've also seen churches do this kind = of thing to prospective pastoral candidates, forcing them to give "the right" =   answers. People aren't stupid, and anyone with a modicum of training can =   provide the "correct" answers.   But let's really be honest. The "where do I play" question really boils down to two things: 1) Does this church have an organ I will be happy playing and practicing = on? 2) Does this church have a salary package that will compensate me for putting up with them.   On the back burner, of course, is the third question: Can I stand = working with the rest of the staff and the unrealistic opinion they have of their church.   Please visit the NEWLY RENOVATED Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi     --part1_15b.345dace.2911ae35_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 10/31/01 11:45:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">To be consistent, = wouldn't you need to be equally finicky about the personal <BR>beliefs of all the *composers* whose music you deigned to use in your <BR>services? &nbsp;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>I think this comment is beginning to show the relative absurdity to = which this thread has risen. &nbsp;&nbsp;All deep theological issues = aside, I firmly believe from my own experience as well as the experiences = of many of my friends and colleages that there are two primary reasons = that come into play when an organist/director considers a job: = &nbsp;&nbsp;the organ and the money, in either order -- for me, it's the = organ. <BR> <BR>I'm intelligent and educated enough to "be" a Presbyterian or a = Baptist or a Methodist. &nbsp;I've played in Christian Science churches = and enjoyed them very much. &nbsp;I've worked in RC parishes and most of = the personal difficulties I've felt were because they were NOT as catholic = as I feel I am, theologically or liturgically. &nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR>As an Episcopalian, there are sufficient problems within the church, = again liturgicall and theologically, that sometimes I question if I can = put up with the Episcopal church any more or not. &nbsp;&nbsp;But where = else is there to work if you're going to be a church musician. = &nbsp;&nbsp;No church is perfect. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Toss in the politics = and personalities and it really makes one wonder. <BR> <BR>Recently, churches have begun the great "are you saved" = inquisition..... &nbsp;&nbsp;"do you buhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve in = JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYSUS" question as they toss the candidates resume aside. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I've also seen churches do this kind of thing to = prospective pastoral candidates, forcing them to give "the right" answers. = &nbsp;&nbsp;People aren't stupid, and anyone with a modicum of training = can provide the "correct" answers. <BR> <BR>But let's really be honest. &nbsp;&nbsp;The "where do I play" question = really boils down to two things: <BR>1) &nbsp;&nbsp;Does this church have an organ I will be happy playing = and practicing on? <BR>2) &nbsp;&nbsp;Does this church have a salary package that will = compensate me for putting up with them. <BR> <BR>On the back burner, of course, is the third question: &nbsp;&nbsp;Can = I stand working with the rest of the staff and the unrealistic opinion = they have of their church. <BR> <BR>Please visit the NEWLY RENOVATED Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_15b.345dace.2911ae35_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Membership in the parish From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:45:55 EST     --part1_124.6a71acf.2911aef3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 10/31/01 11:59:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes:     > The most objective answer as to why the clergy must be believers is that > they are ordained. In order to attain to that status, they must make > certain declarations and vows.   This looks good on paper, but I know far too many priests who can't bring themselves to refer to God as He, or who only invoke the Trinity under duress. We have Bishops whose beliefs (or lack thereof) are definitely contrary to the church's teaching, and many clergy whose behavior is = contrary as well.   Please visit the NEWLY RENOVATED Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/   Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi     --part1_124.6a71acf.2911aef3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 10/31/01 11:59:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The most objective = answer as to why the clergy must be believers is that <BR>they are ordained. &nbsp;In order to attain to that status, they must = make <BR>certain declarations and vows. &nbsp;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>This looks good on paper, but I know far too many priests who can't = bring themselves to refer to God as He, or who only invoke the Trinity = under duress. &nbsp;&nbsp;We have Bishops whose beliefs (or lack thereof) = are definitely contrary to the church's teaching, and many clergy whose = behavior is contrary as well. <BR> <BR>Please visit the NEWLY RENOVATED Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_124.6a71acf.2911aef3_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:59:52 -0500   >I think this comment is beginning to show the relative absurdity to which this thread has risen.   Good. A reductio ad absurdam is exactly what I was attempting. (You = don't think I was making these suggestions seriously, do you?)      
(back) Subject: Re: Re[4]: Membership in the parish From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:11:13 EST     --part1_d2.e7c7bd2.2911b4e1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 10/31/01 3:02:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes:     > Good. A reductio ad absurdam is exactly what I was attempting. (You = don't > think I was making these suggestions seriously, do you?) >   Reminds me of when Phyllis Diller was asked "Is that your real hair?" She replied, "Of course! You don't think I'd BUY anything like this, do = you?" ;-)   Please visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ and wander through the Mall Without Walls Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi     --part1_d2.e7c7bd2.2911b4e1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 10/31/01 3:02:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Good. &nbsp;A = reductio ad absurdam is exactly what I was attempting. &nbsp;(You don't <BR>think I was making these suggestions seriously, do you?) <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Reminds me of when Phyllis Diller was asked "Is that your real hair?" <BR>She replied, "Of course! &nbsp;You don't think I'd BUY anything like = this, do you?" <BR>;-) <BR> <BR>Please visit Howling Acres at = &nbsp;&nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;and wander through the Mall Without Walls <BR>Bruce Cornely &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;~ &nbsp;Cremona502@cs.com &nbsp; <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_d2.e7c7bd2.2911b4e1_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: Re[4]: Membership in the parish From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:03:43 -0600   I thought those were nerve endings....   -----Original Message----- From: Cremona502@cs.com [mailto:Cremona502@cs.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:11 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Re[4]: Membership in the parish     In a message dated 10/31/01 3:02:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, pemmons@wcupa.edu writes:         Good. A reductio ad absurdam is exactly what I was attempting. (You = don't think I was making these suggestions seriously, do you?)         Reminds me of when Phyllis Diller was asked "Is that your real hair?" She replied, "Of course! You don't think I'd BUY anything like this, do you?" ;-)   Please visit Howling Acres at http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502/ and wander through the Mall Without Walls Bruce Cornely ~ Cremona502@cs.com with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Duncan, Miles, Molly, and Dewi      
(back) Subject: Concert w/ 2 organs, 2 organists From: <FLTim@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:32:32 EST   Hello all... There will be a special concert on Sunday, Nov. 11 (Veteran's Day) at = 3:00pm at the Queen of Peace Catholic Church in Ocala, FL featuring Richard = Morris and Hector Olivera. Considering the recent acts our nation is dealing = with, this event will take on a special significance.   A Rodgers T967 has been installed for the event to compliment the existing =   36-rank pipe organ. Tickets are $10 and proceeds will go to the Music = Dept. of the church. For directions and tickets call (352) 854-2181   These premier artists have performed extensively throughout the world including such venues as Carnegie Hall, The Lincoln Center, the Today = Show, the Kennedy Center for the Inauguration of President Carter, and the = cultural performance for the 1996 Olympic games in Atlanta. This should be an INCREDIBLE afternoon of inspirational and patriotic music. I hope you can =   attend.   Best regards, Tim