PipeChat Digest #2410 - Tuesday, October 2, 2001
 
Re: Strange pastoral request
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
RE: Piston contents: Help the novices
  by "Mike Swaldo" <cv_43@OMALP1.OMERESA.NET>
the AGO
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: the AGO
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Site Change - X-Posted
  by "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
Speaking of weddings.....
  by "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net>
Re: the AGO
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: the AGO
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: the AGO
  by <Hell-Felix@t-online.de>
Re: the AGO
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: the AGO
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
RE: the AGO
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
oh heavens! this is getting out of HAND
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
RE: the AGO
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Strange pastoral request From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:08:14 +0800   Education is not the issue. Most churches consider AGO guidelines just = that - guidelines, not regulations - and furthermore, guidelines put together by = an organization of organists, not by any church denominational organization. Remember, AGO is not a union or any other kind of governing body. We like = to think that all those wonderful principles and rules mean something, but = they actually only mean something to us. I've never known a church that = actually followed them all to the letter.   I am blessed with a church that is extremely supportive of its music = program and exxtremely supportive of organ music - a rare gift today, = unfortunately. However, it took over 10 years, a change of senior minister, and a number = of really BAD weddings played by outsiders before I convinced them that I = should have right of first refusal for all weddings - and I still don't always = get it for funerals. And they still find "loopholes" from time to time.   But you take whatever trade off you can and you decide what is most = important. I once had a church job where I had absolute exclusive control over organ = music and furthermore, all other instrumentalists - no one got to play a note in = that sanctuary without my approval - and I had an actual contract and a salary = that met those lofty AGO salary guidelines. But the staff and powers that be = in the church were NOT supportive - quite the contrary. It was the most = spiritually, emotionally, and musically destructive experience of my life.   A lot of people wondered why I left a rich church with a big pipe organ, = French double harpsichord, and grand pianos everywhere. And then went to a = church with a Hammond (and it took me several years to get them out of the = Hammond and into a good organ - maybe someday they will afford actual pipes). But as = the Sunday school song says - a church is not a building, or a salary, or even = an organ - a church is the people - the people you work for, the people you worship with, the people you serve.   Every organist just has to find their own personal priorities. Mine - = well, don't tell them - but I would work for my current church for half the = price (except then I couldn't afford the car or the gas to get there....)   Margo     MFoxy9795@aol.com wrote:   > In a message dated 01-10-01 22:56:48 EDT, you write: > > > > > Merry, > > > > That is SO cute.. Do you REALLY think churches care??? Thanks = for > the > > > > laugh!! ;-) > > well, i'm sorry but i don't consider this matter CUTE; i think it is = quite > serious. somebody has to educate them. i would not take a job where = the > clergy had such callous disregard of what is ethical and fair. it is > certainly an indication that they don't consider you a professional. i = hope > you think more of yourself. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: RE: Piston contents: Help the novices From: "Mike Swaldo" <cv_43@OMALP1.OMERESA.NET> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:56:02 +0100   >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Original Message From PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >No, they are your stops. Clear them.   Jim and All,   Actually, my preset registrations wouldn't be much help to anyone. They = are not the actual registrations I use. I only have 10 ranks and 4 pistons on = my aging Moller. After hitting a piston, I quickly make whatever stop = changes I need to make. I try to keep them so that I can make maximum adjustments = with a minimum of motion.   Best wishes, Mike   Michael L. Swaldo Conotton Valley Schools CV_43@omalp1.omeresa.net    
(back) Subject: the AGO From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 07:51:48 -0700   The fact that the AGO is NOT a union and does NOT provide any of the benefits of a union has been a matter of deep concern to me for many years.   We ARE seeing more job actions by a few activist chapters, but in the case of the most egregious violation (St. Mary the Virgin, NYC) the chapter backed down after a letter from the Rector which answered NONE of the original charges.   The AGO started OUT as an organization of professional church musicians .... passing the Fellowship exam was required for MEMBERSHIP. As standards declined, the AAGO was introduced for those who couldn't pass the Fellowship. THEN the requirement was dropped altogether.   I have often said that we should adopt the British two-organization scheme ... if I'm not mistaken, they have the Royal College of Organist for the professionals, and something else (the name escapes me at the moment) for the amateurs.   There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being an amateur organist; they fill lots of posts that wouldn't be filled otherwise. BUT, by accepting low pay (or NO pay) and working conditions that are best described as medieval servitude, they make it EXTREMELY difficult for those of us who earn our LIVING in church music to raise standards, salaries, benefits, working conditions, etc.   AND, it should be pointed out, while they may not play Bach Preludes and Fugues or Franck Chorals, they fulfil the same FUNCTION in the churches as the professionals; equal pay for equal WORTH *should* apply.   People have stopped going into church music for two reasons: salaries, and working conditions. No musician in ANY other field of music would put up with what most of us have to put up with for thirty seconds, let alone a LIFETIME.   I keep my church far, FAR away from the AGO salary guidelines ... my salary and benefits are beyond top scale for someone with a DMA. And after fifty years on the bench, they SHOULD be.   I negotiated those myself, without help from the Guild; I also negotiated bench fees and absolute right of first refusal for weddings and funerals and anything ELSE that goes on in the church ... nobody plays a NOTE in our church without my express permission, AND approval of what they're going to play.   Admittedly, it doesn't happen very often, because all our weddings and funerals are Solemn High Masses with the full choir in attendance ... the liturgy is very complex; very few people would know how to do it anymore.   Working conditions are another story, but THEY need ME more than *I* need THEM, so we bump and thump along ... most of the time I win the skirmishes; sometimes I lose. Mostly I keep my head down (grin).   I wouldn't stay in church music if I didn't LOVE it; but it's ALSO my LIVELIHOOD. I have NO job security, NO disability or unemployment benefits. I have been seriously ill twice since I came to this post ... they took care of me both times, but they were under no legal obligation to do so, and it remains to be seen what they'd do in the case of an extended illness. If they DIDN'T take care of me, I would lose everything in short order ... one doesn't build up much in the way of savings at an organist's salary, top scale or no. I plan to die at the console ... there's no WAY I could ever afford to RETIRE.   Looking back, I wouldn't change much, except that I WOULD have fought harder for financial security and pension benefits (which I may still get ... that's on the table presently).   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:27:13 +0800   As I said - each person has to find their own priorities working for the church in any capacity - and you are entitled to your argument. However - do not presume to brand as "amateur" those of us who choose to work for = the churches whose music jobs are part time (the vast majority of churches, by the way). Watch where you throw your adjectives, or some of us may call you out - name your weapon - toccatas or trio sonatas at 50 paces.   Dr! Margo Dillard   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > > > There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with being an amateur organist; they > fill lots of posts that wouldn't be filled otherwise....    
(back) Subject: Site Change - X-Posted From: "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:45:22 -0400   Greetings all,   Just a quick note to let you know that my site address has changed. the = new address is:   http://theatreorgans.com/tomhoehn   Please bookmark the site, visit often and sign the guest book, please.   Thanx   Tom Hoehn, Organist http://theatreorgans.com/tomhhoehn Royalty Theatre, Clearwater, FL Tampa Theatre, Tampa, FL First United Methodist Church, Clearwater, FL CFTOS/Manasota/OATOS/HiloBay/CIC-ATOS      
(back) Subject: Speaking of weddings..... From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 11:46:45 -0400   *Small Town Justice*   A police officer in a small town stopped a motorist who was speeding down Main Street.   "But officer," the man said, "I can explain."   "Just be quiet!!!" snapped the officer. "... or I'm going to let you cool off in jail until the chief gets back."   "But officer, I just wanted to say ..."   "And I said KEEP QUIET! Now you're going to jail!"   A few hours later, the officer checked up on his prisoner and said, "Lucky for you that the chief's at his daughter's wedding. He'll be in a   good mood when he gets back."   "Don't count on it," said the man in the cell. "I'm the groom!"   -- ***************************************************** Healthcare references for everyone. "Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com" http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html   Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone. http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html *****************************************************      
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:16:37 EDT     --part1_16c.1c3ff72.28eb4265_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Bud, and friends, I have often said, somewhat half-heartedly and somewhat dead serious, that church musicians need some type of union. I do not = think it needs to be to the extent of say the UAW, but we need some type of recourse.   I, like Bud, do pretty well financially, considering the size church, location. My wife does not have to work outside the home, but I do hold = an adjunct teaching position that helps keep us solvent. In the nearly = seven years I have worked at this church, my salary has gone up just shy of $10,000. I do get pension benefits and full medical coverage for my family, too. So, I really cannot complain.   And, in my contract, there are stipulations on how the employment relationship can be terminated.   Am I looking for a different job? Surely, because I would like to work in = a larger setting. But, am I desperate to leave? Not at all. There are = much larger congregations that do not pay their musicians nearly as much as I = get. And you can believe that when another church is interested, they will = have to "fork it over" (as my dad so eloquently puts it).   I love what I do, but I don't do it for nuttin. It's hard work, but it's = the best job in the world.   Neil Brown Toms River NJ USA       --part1_16c.1c3ff72.28eb4265_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2>Bud, and friends, I have often said, somewhat half-heartedly and = somewhat dead serious, that church musicians need some type of union. = &nbsp;I do not think it needs to be to the extent of say the UAW, but we = need some type of recourse. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I, like Bud, do pretty well financially, considering the size church, = location. &nbsp;My wife does not have to work outside the home, but I do = hold an adjunct teaching position that helps keep us solvent. = &nbsp;&nbsp;In the nearly seven years I have worked at this church, my = salary has gone up just shy of $10,000. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I do get pension = benefits and full medical coverage for my family, too. &nbsp;So, I really = cannot complain. <BR> <BR>And, in my contract, there are stipulations on how the employment = relationship can be terminated. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>Am I looking for a different job? &nbsp;Surely, because I would like = to work in a larger setting. &nbsp;But, am I desperate to leave? &nbsp;Not = at all. &nbsp;There are much larger congregations that do not pay their = musicians nearly as much as I get. &nbsp;And you can believe that when = another church is interested, they will have to "fork it over" (as my dad = so eloquently puts it). &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I love what I do, but I don't do it for nuttin. &nbsp;It's hard work, = but it's the best job in the world. <BR> <BR>Neil Brown <BR>Toms River NJ USA <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_16c.1c3ff72.28eb4265_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:22:02 EDT     --part1_156.1d7fdf4.28eb43aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit     > "amateur"   Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused. The prevailing connotation implies less than good, second-rate, slapstick.   "Amateur" truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like that). = Anyway, one loves what one is doing. It seems to mean that one would do regardless of being paid.   I greatly prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer. There are =   many volunteer musicians who are very competent. There are not so few full-time persons that have no business holding down a church job. The = gamut is wide.   Neil B   --part1_156.1d7fdf4.28eb43aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px">"amateur"</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused. &nbsp;The prevailing = connotation implies less than good, second-rate, slapstick. <BR> <BR>"Amateur" truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like = that). &nbsp;Anyway, one loves what one is doing. &nbsp;It seems to mean = that one would do regardless of being paid. <BR> <BR>I greatly prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer. = &nbsp;There are many volunteer musicians who are very competent. = &nbsp;There are not so few full-time persons that have no business holding = down a church job. &nbsp;The gamut is wide. <BR> <BR>Neil B</FONT></HTML>   --part1_156.1d7fdf4.28eb43aa_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: <Hell-Felix@t-online.de> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 18:37:23 +0200 (MEST)   quilisma@socal.rr.com schrieb:   > The AGO started OUT as an organization of professional > church musicians > ... passing the Fellowship exam was required for > MEMBERSHIP. As > standards declined, the AAGO was introduced for those who > couldn't pass > the Fellowship. THEN the requirement was dropped > altogether. > > I have often said that we should adopt the British > two-organization > scheme ... if I'm not mistaken, they have the Royal > College of Organist > for the professionals, and something else (the name > escapes me at the > moment) for the amateurs.   Obviously should call myself lucky, that the AGO had accepted me as a member 3 years ago, because I'm such an "amateur".   But I'm damned proud of it!!   Felix  
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:41:14 -0700     --------------BB1E6F274F04E5BA515F6365 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I'm sorry ... I was using "amateur" in the sense that the Brits use it on Anglican-Music ... MOST British choirs are led by "amateurs" in the sense that they donate their time or receive a very SMALL honorarium (salaries across the pond are even more miserable than they are in the U.S.) ... for instance, my netfriend Deon in South Africa is a full-time lawyer; he conducts Mozart and Haydn at St. Michael and All Angels in his "spare" time. He certainly isn't an "amateur" in the sense of ABILITIES; but he IS an "amateur" in the sense that church music is an avocation/hobby, rather than his livelihood.   And yes, DR. Dillard, I AM aware that MANY professionals CHOOSE to take small part-time church jobs. Dr. Willan's salary at St. Mary Magdalene in Toronto probably paid for the gas and upkeep of his car ... certainly no MORE; he made his LIVING teaching at the University of Toronto.   But just IMAGINE what he MIGHT have accomplished at St. Mary Magdalene if he hadn't HAD to teach full-time.   Cheers,   Bud-by-the-Beach   Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:   > > >> "amateur" > > Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused. The prevailing > connotation implies less than good, second-rate, slapstick. > > "Amateur" truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like > that). Anyway, one loves what one is doing. It seems to mean that > one would do regardless of being paid. > > I greatly prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer. There > are many volunteer musicians who are very competent. There are not so > few full-time persons that have no business holding down a church > job. The gamut is wide. > > Neil B   --------------BB1E6F274F04E5BA515F6365 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> <body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"> I'm sorry ... I was using "amateur" in the sense that the Brits use it on Anglican-Music ... MOST British choirs are led by "amateurs" in the sense that they donate their time or receive a very SMALL honorarium = (salaries across the pond are even more miserable than they are in the U.S.) ... for instance, my netfriend Deon in South Africa is a full-time lawyer; he conducts Mozart and Haydn at St. Michael and All Angels in his "spare" time. He certainly isn't an "amateur" in the sense of ABILITIES; but he IS an "amateur" in the sense that church music is an avocation/hobby, = rather than his livelihood. <p>And yes, DR. Dillard, I AM aware that MANY professionals CHOOSE to take small part-time church jobs. Dr. Willan's salary at St. Mary Magdalene in Toronto probably paid for the gas and upkeep of his car ... certainly no MORE; he made his LIVING teaching at the University of Toronto. <p>But just IMAGINE what he MIGHT have accomplished at St. Mary Magdalene if he hadn't HAD to teach full-time. <p>Cheers, <p>Bud-by-the-Beach <p>Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE>&nbsp; <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><font = face=3D"arial,helvetica"><font = size=3D-1>"amateur"</font></font></blockquote>   <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font = size=3D-1>Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused.&nbsp; The prevailing connotation implies less than good, second-rate, slapstick.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>"Amateur" = truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like that).&nbsp; Anyway, one loves what one is doing.&nbsp; It seems to mean that one would do = regardless of being paid.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>I greatly = prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer.&nbsp; There are many = volunteer musicians who are very competent.&nbsp; There are not so few full-time persons that have no business holding down a church job.&nbsp; The gamut is wide.</font></font></font> <p><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D-1>Neil = B</font></font></font></blockquote>   </body> </html>   --------------BB1E6F274F04E5BA515F6365--    
(back) Subject: Re: the AGO From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:41:05 EDT     --part1_15.1b95ee7c.28eb4821_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Felix, you are an amateur in the true sense, my friend (one who loves what =   one is doing).   However, you are hardly an amateur in the current meaning of the word.   Neil   --part1_15.1b95ee7c.28eb4821_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2>Felix, you are an amateur in the true sense, my friend (one who = loves what one is doing). <BR> <BR>However, you are hardly an amateur in the current meaning of the word. <BR> <BR>Neil</FONT></HTML>   --part1_15.1b95ee7c.28eb4821_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: the AGO From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:45:45 -0400   This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C14B61.AE7504E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   Hi Bud, That folks here don't know the primary meaning of amateur is not your fault and I don't think you should have to apologize for that. If people weren't so uptight and quick to jump to conclusions they might have understood what you were saying, as I do, I might add. Folks on this list are very quick to take things personally and much to quick to mis- or = rather "self-" interpret too much toward the pejorative side of the world, if I may, and even if I may not!! Robert Colasacco   I'm sorry ... I was using "amateur" in the sense that the Brits use it on Anglican-Music ... MOST British choirs are led by "amateurs" in the sense that they donate their time or receive a very SMALL honorarium (salaries across the pond are even more miserable than they are in the U.S.) ... for instance, my netfriend Deon in South Africa is a full-time lawyer; he conducts Mozart and Haydn at St. Michael and All Angels in his "spare" = time. He certainly isn't an "amateur" in the sense of ABILITIES; but he IS an "amateur" in the sense that church music is an avocation/hobby, rather = than his livelihood.   And yes, DR. Dillard, I AM aware that MANY professionals CHOOSE to take small part-time church jobs. Dr. Willan's salary at St. Mary Magdalene in Toronto probably paid for the gas and upkeep of his car ... certainly no MORE; he made his LIVING teaching at the University of Toronto.     But just IMAGINE what he MIGHT have accomplished at St. Mary Magdalene if = he hadn't HAD to teach full-time.     Cheers,     Bud-by-the-Beach     Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote:       "amateur"   Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused. The prevailing connotation implies less than good, second-rate, slapstick.     "Amateur" truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like that). Anyway, one loves what one is doing. It seems to mean that one would do regardless of being paid.     I greatly prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer. There are many volunteer musicians who are very competent. There are not so few full-time persons that have no business holding down a church job. The gamut is wide.     Neil B     ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C14B61.AE7504E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1">     <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><SPAN class=3D496554116-02102001><FONT face=3DGaramond = color=3D#800000>Hi Bud, That folks here don't know the primary meaning of amateur is not your = fault and I don't think you should have to apologize for that. If people weren't so uptight and quick to jump to conclusions they might have understood what = you were saying, as I do, I might add. Folks on this list are very quick to = take things personally and much to quick to mis- or rather "self-" interpret = too much toward the pejorative side of the world, if I may, and even if I may not!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D496554116-02102001><FONT face=3DGaramond = color=3D#800000>Robert Colasacco</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>I'm sorry ... I was using "amateur" in the = sense that the Brits use it on Anglican-Music ... MOST British choirs are led by =   "amateurs" in the sense that they donate their time or receive a very = SMALL honorarium (salaries across the pond are even more miserable than they are = in the U.S.) ... for instance, my netfriend Deon in South Africa is a = full-time lawyer; he conducts Mozart and Haydn at St. Michael and All Angels in his "spare" time. He certainly isn't an "amateur" in the sense of ABILITIES; = but he IS an "amateur" in the sense that church music is an avocation/hobby, rather than his livelihood. <P>And yes, DR. Dillard, I AM aware that MANY professionals CHOOSE to take = small part-time church jobs. Dr. Willan's salary at St. Mary Magdalene in = Toronto probably paid for the gas and upkeep of his car ... certainly no MORE; he = made his LIVING teaching at the University of Toronto. <P>But just IMAGINE what he MIGHT have accomplished at St. Mary Magdalene = if he hadn't HAD to teach full-time. <P>Cheers, <P>Bud-by-the-Beach <P>Innkawgneeto@cs.com wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">&nbsp; <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE=3D"CITE"><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D-1>"amateur"</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT = size=3D-1>Unfortunately, this term is grossly misused.&nbsp; The prevailing connotation implies less than = good, second-rate, slapstick.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>"Amateur" = truly means "for the love of doing it" (or something like that).&nbsp; Anyway, one = loves what one is doing.&nbsp; It seems to mean that one would do regardless = of being paid.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>I greatly = prefer the terms full-time or part-time or volunteer.&nbsp; There are many = volunteer musicians who are very competent.&nbsp; There are not so few full-time = persons that have no business holding down a church job.&nbsp; The gamut is wide.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>Neil B</FONT></FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C14B61.AE7504E0--  
(back) Subject: oh heavens! this is getting out of HAND From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 09:50:07 -0700   Felix (and others):   I have attempted to explain what I meant by "amateur".   Let me try again:   The needs (as regards a professional union/guild/whatever) of those of us who are full-time, professional church musicians in full-time church jobs which constitute our livelihood are different from those of us who practice church music as a part-time avocation/hobby, and DON'T depend on a church job for the major part of our income.   And I'm not sure ONE organization can encompass such disparate needs. Looking at the year's programs for our local AGO chapter, it's entirely geared toward the avocational church musician ... workshops on hymn-playing, etc.   Felix, you are by NO means an amateur. HOWEVER, if you DO manage to make your living as a concert organist, you will join a VERY short list (The Fox, Biggs, perhaps Carlo Curley) that can be counted on the fingers of one hand, with fingers left over. And even The Fox had a church job for many, MANY years.   Cheers,   Bud-by-the-Beach        
(back) Subject: RE: the AGO From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:53:21 -0400   How melodramatic.     Obviously should call myself lucky, that the AGO had accepted me as a member 3 years ago, because I'm such an "amateur".   But I'm damned proud of it!!   Felix   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org