PipeChat Digest #2418 - Saturday, October 6, 2001
 
Macintosh Performa 6300  Computer
  by "pat and ian" <patian@senet.com.au>
Amateurs paving the way for professionals  ?????
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
Amateurs paving the way for professionals  ?????
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
Pauls comments
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
 

(back) Subject: Macintosh Performa 6300 Computer From: "pat and ian" <patian@senet.com.au> Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 20:45:31 +0930   Does anyone know of an alternative battery for the above computer?   The battery (back-up) for the clock has gone flat. It's a Rayvac, Part No 841, Alkaline, 4.8 volts, made in U.S.A. The price in South Australia, = from Macintosh dealers, is quoted at $40 (AU) for a genuine Macintosh spare = part! There's got to be a less-expensive replacement. I hope!   I have looked at alternatives, but the difference seemed to be in the = design of the plug connection to the three pins on the board.   Ian.    
(back) Subject: Amateurs paving the way for professionals ????? From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:56:31 -0400   Subject: Re: AGO, amateurs, credentials, etc. From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:50:36 -0500   Hi Glenda, to elaborate on your post, maybe you could shed some light on = relevant facts surrounding your position and how you've educated the = congregation and made the way clear for a "professional" to take your = place if and when ever you leave? I've commented on your post.....   Glenda Wrote:   I have been at this little church for 16 years, plus 8 months before going to law school. There were and are no "professionals" out there to take my place, and none of you would do what I do for $220 a month. = **(ThankGod)*** ****************************** How little is your church, how many attend on sunday, how many services = and what's the average offering (how much does your pastor make? ********************************   .. The measly stipend has been raised from $10 a service to $220 money, and goes up every year = in this struggling church. In addition, we raise money to have a tiny = recital series to cultivate the area's interest in the organ and classical music = in this culturally deprived black hole. ******************************************** On what type of organ are these concerts played? *********************************************** If I left, this church would not pay a "professional" to come in and do = the job; it would subsist without until the music program withered away. The same is true all over. *********************************************** I had a church that wanted me to play for Christmas Eve (3 services) I agreed to do it . Several weeks prior to the services, I wondered why = no one had asked about my rates, this is a small country church but = attendance is good (probably expect 300 people during these services with = a kids service having to play all kinds of ridiculous crap)   I told them my rate was $125.00 per service... they told me they pay = $75.00 for a sub for two services... i told them my rate was $125.00 per = service. they said they'd get back to me... .............................................. I spent Christmas with my = family at and volunteered at my own church (40 people) ******************************************************   One has to start somewhere in order to create a job market for the "professionals", and many times it is left to the amateurs = to do that. One has to be an amateur first in order to become a good professional. Many of your jobs out there were initially funded by amateurs/music lovers who dreamed and put their money and talents where their mouth was. ************************************ I don't think so, I'm a volunteer but that's because i choose to do this = as I'm in retirement at 48. My last job was 4 years ago and I made $17500 = for 1 service, 1 choir and a 10 month season. I'm now on sick leave... = sick of the Lutheran Pastor that thinks he's Jimmy Swaggert and know it = all church committees who want padded pews and carpet in a 4 second room = with a 24 stop Flentrop.   The idea that an amateur will create a job market for a professional is = preposterous. All that does is let the church coast along in arrogance = and dig in it's heals and become complacent. If they don't have to pay = you, then what makes you think they'll be willing to pay someone else! = You're dreaming if you think that when you leave they're going to whip out = the check book and open up a 20K church job to a :"professional" because = now "We've seen the light" I equate professional with ability, not money. so If you are paid = $220.00, that's a profession, I don't know your abilities but if you = consider yourself an amateur, then you would know better then me. you = speak of your abilities to play Bach, and Franck and you were a dean and = past sub dean... If you're as good as you say you are, then consider = this... you slave away paving the way for the next person to be paid a = professional salary while you, my dear, are being screwed right in church *****************************************************************   The AGO has a lot of lofty and worthwhile goals to improve the lot of organists. But the AGO is spread pretty thin for accomplishing them, and = is only as good as the individuals who comprise its membership. In my experience as past sub dean and dean, I have found that for every three members or nonmembers sitting around complaining and/or playing = tiddlywinks, there is one out there trying to make a difference and attempting to = realize those goals. ************************************************ Right ON! *******************************************   "Without a vision the people perish." Maybe if you don't like your AGO, = or your president, or your Congress, or anything else, you can start your own army (beginning with one - yourself) to make it better. You can't do that by sitting around and complaining about how the members didn't make you = feel welcome, or that they're snobs, or they spend all their time doing = something you don't want to do. Hell, if I had had that attitude, I wouldn't have made it past the first AGO meeting myself. Only two members even talked = to me.   Instead of worrying about the amateurs taking away your jobs, why don't = you fall down on your knees and thank God for the ones that had the foresight = to create a job for you. I do, and am happy whenever I hear amateurs pulling out that hard music and doing it just like the big boys/girls. ************************************************ I'm blessed with not ever having to play another wedding, however I shoot = them now and make between $3000-$4000 per wedding.   I can tell you with out blinking an eye, that I don't know how many = "professionals" I'm hearing, out there or if they're amateurs, but the = reality is, that a good percentage of them should be paying the church = dearly to have to listen to them butcher the simplest of music! I'm in the = Baltimore DC area so I'm not talking about some little tiny backwoods = churches here! ************************************************************   Sorry for my extreme take on the posts regarding this subject. It's been = a really bad week, and this strain just did not die out in time before I = could resist temptation and prevent myself from weighing in. I had to take it = out on someone - the governor wouldn't see me. Maybe it was the loaded = pistol. ************************************************************** If on the other hand, you're like me and got fed up with all of the crap = that professional church musicians put up with then I understand.   I now play for a little lutheran church in a very small town in the = country. When we first came here we couldn't stand to go there because = the music was horrible. They had this guy (peabody graduate) playing the = organ... Holy Cow, my wife and I were crawling in our skin. He could not = play his way through wet toilet paper, it was nauseating. To his credit, he was very gifted in verse and poetry and was a = magnificent artist, but he could not play, it must have been music = history! Anyway, he passed away and I now volunteer there. this is a = church of 40 people on a good day, the pastor has two churches, the = offering is about $300 per week They had this little conn organ that was pitiful, it didn't play on the = great. I told my wife if i was going to play there then they needed to = get an organ if I had to buy it, so I did, I put in a 33 stop Eminent = Digital. Why do i do it? After leaving my past church I always said = that I would rather play donate my time to a church that had absolutely = nothing and appreciated music rather than put up with another church like = XXXXXX. Time to put my money where my mouth was!   The reality for churches who do have incomes and don't pay an organist = because the choose not to it "silent city". The "amateur" who goes in = there and hacks their way through the service is certainly not helping = anyone, other than their own self esteem. They couldn't get a job = elsewhere. So... the church suffers because people like me and my family = won't set foot in there because the music sucks! So... who's to blame, = EVERYONE! That church gets everything it deserves!   If in fact, you church has an attendance of about 125 or more for at least = 1 service and your Pastor only has one church and makes 50 or 60K by the = time you factor in his (or her) benefits and allowances and housing, than = I guess you are part of the problem. If not, then there's nothing wrong = with helping those who seriously need the help. (make sure they give you = a statement for your contribution on your taxes) Please don't think that = I was attacking you either, I'm attacking the churches for their complacency. There are plenty of people out there that should not be = playing but they have some delusion of grandeur that they're great... It = must be the Robe that they put on... that always help you play better! We = have a Brethren church in town and she volunteers too (they have a ton of = money)..... This darned women can't even count to 4... you know those = big round notes at the end of a phrase... I wonder what they mean, oh = yes... play real fast through the introduction because the congregation can't wait to sing!   Wayne Grauel        
(back) Subject: Amateurs paving the way for professionals ????? From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 02:56:44 -0400   Subject: Re: AGO, amateurs, credentials, etc. From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@access.aic-fl.com> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 08:50:36 -0500   Hi Glenda, to elaborate on your post, maybe you could shed some light on = relevant facts surrounding your position and how you've educated the = congregation and made the way clear for a "professional" to take your = place if and when ever you leave? I've commented on your post.....   Glenda Wrote:   I have been at this little church for 16 years, plus 8 months before going to law school. There were and are no "professionals" out there to take my place, and none of you would do what I do for $220 a month. = **(ThankGod)*** ****************************** How little is your church, how many attend on sunday, how many services = and what's the average offering (how much does your pastor make? ********************************   .. The measly stipend has been raised from $10 a service to $220 money, and goes up every year = in this struggling church. In addition, we raise money to have a tiny = recital series to cultivate the area's interest in the organ and classical music = in this culturally deprived black hole. ******************************************** On what type of organ are these concerts played? *********************************************** If I left, this church would not pay a "professional" to come in and do = the job; it would subsist without until the music program withered away. The same is true all over. *********************************************** I had a church that wanted me to play for Christmas Eve (3 services) I agreed to do it . Several weeks prior to the services, I wondered why = no one had asked about my rates, this is a small country church but = attendance is good (probably expect 300 people during these services with = a kids service having to play all kinds of ridiculous crap)   I told them my rate was $125.00 per service... they told me they pay = $75.00 for a sub for two services... i told them my rate was $125.00 per = service. they said they'd get back to me... .............................................. I spent Christmas with my = family at and volunteered at my own church (40 people) ******************************************************   One has to start somewhere in order to create a job market for the "professionals", and many times it is left to the amateurs = to do that. One has to be an amateur first in order to become a good professional. Many of your jobs out there were initially funded by amateurs/music lovers who dreamed and put their money and talents where their mouth was. ************************************ I don't think so, I'm a volunteer but that's because i choose to do this = as I'm in retirement at 48. My last job was 4 years ago and I made $17500 = for 1 service, 1 choir and a 10 month season. I'm now on sick leave... = sick of the Lutheran Pastor that thinks he's Jimmy Swaggert and know it = all church committees who want padded pews and carpet in a 4 second room = with a 24 stop Flentrop.   The idea that an amateur will create a job market for a professional is = preposterous. All that does is let the church coast along in arrogance = and dig in it's heals and become complacent. If they don't have to pay = you, then what makes you think they'll be willing to pay someone else! = You're dreaming if you think that when you leave they're going to whip out = the check book and open up a 20K church job to a :"professional" because = now "We've seen the light" I equate professional with ability, not money. so If you are paid = $220.00, that's a profession, I don't know your abilities but if you = consider yourself an amateur, then you would know better then me. you = speak of your abilities to play Bach, and Franck and you were a dean and = past sub dean... If you're as good as you say you are, then consider = this... you slave away paving the way for the next person to be paid a = professional salary while you, my dear, are being screwed right in church *****************************************************************   The AGO has a lot of lofty and worthwhile goals to improve the lot of organists. But the AGO is spread pretty thin for accomplishing them, and = is only as good as the individuals who comprise its membership. In my experience as past sub dean and dean, I have found that for every three members or nonmembers sitting around complaining and/or playing = tiddlywinks, there is one out there trying to make a difference and attempting to = realize those goals. ************************************************ Right ON! *******************************************   "Without a vision the people perish." Maybe if you don't like your AGO, = or your president, or your Congress, or anything else, you can start your own army (beginning with one - yourself) to make it better. You can't do that by sitting around and complaining about how the members didn't make you = feel welcome, or that they're snobs, or they spend all their time doing = something you don't want to do. Hell, if I had had that attitude, I wouldn't have made it past the first AGO meeting myself. Only two members even talked = to me.   Instead of worrying about the amateurs taking away your jobs, why don't = you fall down on your knees and thank God for the ones that had the foresight = to create a job for you. I do, and am happy whenever I hear amateurs pulling out that hard music and doing it just like the big boys/girls. ************************************************ I'm blessed with not ever having to play another wedding, however I shoot = them now and make between $3000-$4000 per wedding.   I can tell you with out blinking an eye, that I don't know how many = "professionals" I'm hearing, out there or if they're amateurs, but the = reality is, that a good percentage of them should be paying the church = dearly to have to listen to them butcher the simplest of music! I'm in the = Baltimore DC area so I'm not talking about some little tiny backwoods = churches here! ************************************************************   Sorry for my extreme take on the posts regarding this subject. It's been = a really bad week, and this strain just did not die out in time before I = could resist temptation and prevent myself from weighing in. I had to take it = out on someone - the governor wouldn't see me. Maybe it was the loaded = pistol. ************************************************************** If on the other hand, you're like me and got fed up with all of the crap = that professional church musicians put up with then I understand.   I now play for a little lutheran church in a very small town in the = country. When we first came here we couldn't stand to go there because = the music was horrible. They had this guy (peabody graduate) playing the = organ... Holy Cow, my wife and I were crawling in our skin. He could not = play his way through wet toilet paper, it was nauseating. To his credit, he was very gifted in verse and poetry and was a = magnificent artist, but he could not play, it must have been music = history! Anyway, he passed away and I now volunteer there. this is a = church of 40 people on a good day, the pastor has two churches, the = offering is about $300 per week They had this little conn organ that was pitiful, it didn't play on the = great. I told my wife if i was going to play there then they needed to = get an organ if I had to buy it, so I did, I put in a 33 stop Eminent = Digital. Why do i do it? After leaving my past church I always said = that I would rather play donate my time to a church that had absolutely = nothing and appreciated music rather than put up with another church like = XXXXXX. Time to put my money where my mouth was!   The reality for churches who do have incomes and don't pay an organist = because the choose not to it "silent city". The "amateur" who goes in = there and hacks their way through the service is certainly not helping = anyone, other than their own self esteem. They couldn't get a job = elsewhere. So... the church suffers because people like me and my family = won't set foot in there because the music sucks! So... who's to blame, = EVERYONE! That church gets everything it deserves!   If in fact, you church has an attendance of about 125 or more for at least = 1 service and your Pastor only has one church and makes 50 or 60K by the = time you factor in his (or her) benefits and allowances and housing, than = I guess you are part of the problem. If not, then there's nothing wrong = with helping those who seriously need the help. (make sure they give you = a statement for your contribution on your taxes) Please don't think that = I was attacking you either, I'm attacking the churches for their complacency. There are plenty of people out there that should not be = playing but they have some delusion of grandeur that they're great... It = must be the Robe that they put on... that always help you play better! We = have a Brethren church in town and she volunteers too (they have a ton of = money)..... This darned women can't even count to 4... you know those = big round notes at the end of a phrase... I wonder what they mean, oh = yes... play real fast through the introduction because the congregation can't wait to sing!   Wayne Grauel        
(back) Subject: Pauls comments From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 03:00:28 -0400   >   Very Well Said Paul! Wayne   > > I know that if I had stuck with it, I might make the grade as a" > professional" and now that I have more time on my hands, realize that = there > was talent there.I also do not regret that I did not follow the music = path > for many reasons I won't list here. I think that, as with other > organizations, one apple spoils the entire barrel and will not allow = those > individuals to spoil my enjoyment of the rest of the crew. I think that = most > AGO members do not categorize themselves but I, as an amateur, can see = the > more talented versus those that struggle. I also feel that those who are > more talented also do not look at themselves as "better" than the rest > except for the one or two "apples". Most are fine underpaid musicians = who > have a deep love of music and a profound relationship with their God. > Paul > -