PipeChat Digest #2455 - Thursday, October 25, 2001
 
RE: pistons/crescendo/tutti
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
RE: The Crescendo Crutch
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
Re: Hammond card for Allen
  by <Pologaptommy@aol.com>
Re: MIDI problem.
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
RE: Bunjes-Holy Trinity Pipe Organ (LONG!) (was crescendo/tutti)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: crescendo/tutti
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: crescendo/tutti
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
RE: The Crescendo Crutch
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net>
rollschweller/crescendo/free combinations
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: pistons/crescendo/tutti From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:55:51 -0700 (PDT)   --0-828900673-1004028951=3D:71623 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii     This whole question of how developed a combination action is, crescendo = pedals, reversibles, etc, is very much connected to to player AND the = instrument, and who programmed or wired the *fixed* devices in older = organs. The 1990 Randall Dyer organ at Trinity Church, Florence, AL, had no = crescendo pedal and only 12 general pistons, with no memory levels. This = was a 24 rank organ in the neo-baroque style, very nicely scaled and = voiced, and it did almost everything with a degree of success, except, = unfortunately, the English literature and accompaniment. Some modest = duplexing of swell stops to the great would have helped greatly because = anything other than the Rohrflote in the Great would be too big for the = choir most of the time. With that said, I don't think that style of = instrument NEEDS a crescendo pedal as the dynamics are terraced and stops = added while playing have to be done at the ends of phrases, and must be = carefully matched to the piece. I am not sure even the most musical = crescendo pedal would work in that intimate room and with that style = organ. I was able to get a quasi-English sound because the Krummhorn was = playable at 16/8 and the Trompette at 8/4 on the manuals. Both reeds were = playable The organ before that was a "Skinnerized" (by John Hendriksen) small = Moller stock model unit organ in a great room. We added the big 16' = Bourdon from a 1946 Moller that we picked up for $1,000.00, all and more = of which I made back by selling and trading. From that organ also came a = lovely Oboe, Chimes, and the rescaled Gamba and a Celeste that was cobbled = together. Here there were only 4 generals with a tripper action and the = Crescendo pedal acted as "tutti" often and did a decent job of adding = stops, but I relyed on hand registration for anything that was not 8-4-2 = and above. This organ has recently been updated by Dennis Milnar who added = a full combination action and relay, built new chests and restored the = reeds, and I understand that appropriate stops to complete the Principal = Chorus are planned. I have not been back but am looking forward to playing = it. The two California organs were a small Wicks of 13 ranks and the present = Swain & Kates, much revised tonally and specification wise by organ = builder Paul Sahlin and yours truly. The Wicks Crescendo Pedal was never = touched and here there were only 3 generals so hand registration was very = easy to do. The S & K is a Klann console and with 45 stops adding the 32' = Resultant or 16' Subbass, or stops by hand to the great is difficult = during hymns and fast pieces because you have to be sure to hit the right = tab. The tripper combination action is well developed, but it now has to = be set with a pair of plyers from the inside as the tabs will not stay in = place to set the levers that pull stops on and off. I find that motor and = eye coordination are harder the more tabs there are, and I am looking = forward to switching over to a knob console because that will be easier to = deal with. We will have lots of goodies here, but I like to register by = hand and I have specified the organ to be fairly independ So I guess the point is that the tonal style can affect the usefulness or = not of these devices. A more classic organ relies on stepped dynamics, = instruments with 20-30 stops can be managed by hand quite well, and I = think that a Crescendo pedal works best in a good room and with plenty of = stops at 16, 8 and 4' pitch and a good swell box. Anyway, the Crescendo = pedal was developed during the romantic era when organs began to have many = more degrees of tone in the foundations, so works best on instruments in = this vein. When all you have on the Great is a 8' Bourdon, and an 8-4-2-IV = chorus there is little hope of a crescendo pedal providing a true = Crescendo, it merely is a very unmusical thing that become a footrest. I = cut the positive cable to the sfz and Cresc pedal on the S & K console = rather that bothering to rewire them. We will have a nice orcestral = crescendo on the new console and the gallery and nave shades of the swell can be controlled independently as the original Skinner = has part     Randy Terry, Director of Music & Organist Mona Dena, Principal Choir Director The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org     --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. --0-828900673-1004028951=3D:71623 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii   <P>This whole question of how developed a combination action is, crescendo = pedals, reversibles, etc, is very much connected to to player AND the = instrument, and who programmed or wired the *fixed* devices in older = organs. <P>The 1990 Randall Dyer organ at Trinity Church, Florence, AL, had no = crescendo pedal and only 12 general pistons, with no memory levels. This = was a 24 rank organ in the neo-baroque style, very nicely scaled and = voiced, and it did almost everything with a degree of success, except, = unfortunately, the English literature and accompaniment. Some modest = duplexing of swell stops to the great would have helped greatly because = anything other than the Rohrflote in the Great would be too big for the = choir most of the time. With that said, I don't think that style of = instrument NEEDS a crescendo pedal as the dynamics are terraced and stops = added while playing have to be done at the ends of phrases, and must be = carefully matched to the piece. I am not sure even the most musical = crescendo pedal would work in that intimate room and with that style = organ. I was able to get a quasi-English sound because the Krummhorn was = playable at 16/8 and the Trompette at 8/4 on the manuals. Both reeds were = playa <P>The organ before that was a "Skinnerized" (by John Hendriksen) small = Moller stock model unit organ in a great room. We added the big 16' = Bourdon from a 1946 Moller that we picked up for $1,000.00, all and more = of which I made back by selling and trading. From that organ also came a = lovely Oboe, Chimes, and the rescaled Gamba and a Celeste that was cobbled = together. Here there were only 4 generals with a tripper action and the = Crescendo pedal acted as "tutti" often and did a decent job of adding = stops, but I relyed on hand registration for anything that was not 8-4-2 = and above. This organ has recently been updated by Dennis Milnar who added = a full combination action and relay, built new chests and restored the = reeds, and I understand that appropriate stops to complete the Principal = Chorus are planned. I have not been back but am looking forward to playing = it. <P>The two California organs were a small Wicks of 13 ranks and the = present Swain &amp; Kates, much revised tonally and specification wise by = organ builder Paul Sahlin and yours truly. The Wicks Crescendo Pedal was = never touched and here there were only 3 generals so hand registration was = very easy to do. The S &amp; K is a Klann console and with 45 stops adding = the 32' Resultant or 16' Subbass, or stops by hand to the great is = difficult during hymns and fast pieces because you have to be sure to hit = the right tab. The tripper combination action is well developed, but it = now has to be set with a pair of plyers from the inside as the tabs will = not stay in place to set the levers that pull stops on and off. I find = that motor and eye coordination are harder the more tabs there are, and I = am looking forward to switching over to a knob console because that will = be easier to deal with. We will have lots of goodies here, but I like to = register by hand and I have specified the organ to be fair <P>So I guess the point is that the tonal style can affect the usefulness = or not of these devices. A more classic organ relies on stepped dynamics, = instruments with 20-30 stops can be managed by hand quite well, and I = think that a Crescendo pedal works best in a good room and with plenty of = stops at 16, 8 and 4' pitch and a good swell box. Anyway, the Crescendo = pedal was developed during the romantic era when organs began to have many = more degrees of tone in the foundations, so works best on instruments in = this vein. When all you have on the Great is a 8' Bourdon, and an 8-4-2-IV chorus there is little hope of a crescendo pedal = providing a true Crescendo, it merely is a very unmusical thing that = become a footrest. I cut the positive cable to the sfz and Cresc pedal on = the S &amp; K console rather that bothering to rewire them. We will have a = nice orcestral crescendo on the new console and the gallery and nave = shades of the swell can be controlled independently as the original = Skinner h Make a great connection at <a href=3D"http://rd.yahoo.com/mktg/mail/txt/tagline/?http://personals.yahoo.c= om" target=3D"_blank">Yahoo! Personals</a>. --0-828900673-1004028951=3D:71623--  
(back) Subject: RE: The Crescendo Crutch From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:55:46 -0400   >Perhaps there should be a "Crescendo pedal" off switch!   There should probably be a crescendo-pedal-off associated with general cancel. One of the penalties of using the crescendo pedal is the risk of forgetting that you have left it on when you have cancelled the organ, registered (probably pp) for another piece, and begun playing.   I remember reading that the Washington Cathedral organ had such a feature way back in the 1960s. I forgot, when I finally had some time on the instrument, to investigate exactly how it works, i.e., how to specify that you want to use the crescendo pedal again-- probably by closing it fully first.   Didn't Edwin Lemare take to wiring the crescendo pedal shut in has latter days wherever he played recitals, simply because he might be so smashed as to open it by accident?   Paul Emmons    
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond card for Allen From: <Pologaptommy@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:02:49 EDT   When I bought my 603, it came with a huge stack of cards, several of them being bells and chimes, and solos. I noticed that some of them were = plain, brown, cards with the name of the card written on them in pencil. Also a = few of them had no holes punched in them. But no where on these brown cards = was Allen organ company ever reffered to. Of course on the other ones, the = ones with the colors, Allen organ was written on the cards. I take it that these cards were easily copied, but surely they are copywrited? Josh  
(back) Subject: Re: MIDI problem. From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:08:30 EDT   Hi Bob:   I do know Midi might take a lot of room on the HD and 128MB of memory would help too. What are the system needs on the box containing the progam for midi?   Ron  
(back) Subject: RE: Bunjes-Holy Trinity Pipe Organ (LONG!) (was crescendo/tutti) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:18:30 -0500   John said:   Speaking of Bunjes (as we have been on another list), Jeff White, whom I do not know, and whose organ is unfamiliar to me, writes about crescendo pedals and says of his instrument:   >Now, I DID have one thing changed IMMEDIATELY: and that was to remove = the >Terz 1-3/5 from both items. That only belongs on Solo registrations, = IMHO.   This is clearly an instrument designed by Bunjes or perhaps built without his direct involvement by a devoted disciple such as Berghaus: Holzposaune, Gross Dulzian, Chor. The Chor to Great 16 says that it's electric action; I would guess that it is either a Zimmer or Berghaus. Casavant is a possibility, though they didn't build too many Bunjes jobs after the early '70s, and I don't think Bunjes had employed Holzposaunen that early.   Any details, Jeff?   I REPLY:   <Picking jaw up off floor...>   John, that's AMAZING. It WAS designed by Bunjes, and he was directly involved. It IS an electric action instrument. And it IS a Zimmer. The organ was new when the church built the new sanctuary, all of which was dedicated in the Spring of 1986. The previous organ was a 4-rank Wicks. = It is technically a 3-manual instrument, but with a 2-manual design. The top manual, a full 61-note keyboard, currently has no function, but is = prepared for a Trompete en hors, and maybe a Grand Cornet and a flute, if I have my way. <GRIN> I also have considered using that as a MIDI manual, but we're QUITE far away from any of this coming to fruition.   There are pictures of the organ now on Holy Trinity's website. When you view these, you'll note the white tapestries on the organ case where 1-6 = of the Principal 16' are missing. These are being replaced due to the zinc problem which seems to be affecting many instruments built in that time period. http://www.htlutheran.org/revival/reviv01.html These pictures = are a special event we held back in August. Ken Medema is the pianist in the pictures, and unfortunately that grand piano was RENTED! The new 1-6 = pipes are being built by A. R. Schopp and are due to be delivered around Easter. We raised the funds in about 6 months to replace them. Since I've only = been at this position since 7/1, this is a problem I inherited. Curiously, if you read this month's cover feature artcle in TAO, you'll note they had = the same thing happen to them!   Getting back to the divisions, the Great would be the bottom manual, and = the Chor in the middle. I guess the top would be called "Solo", which is = what's inside the console. In the picture, the Great is in the right-hand tower, lower deck. The upper deck of that tower only holds the first octave and = a half (or so) of the 16' Gedecktbass (wood). The rest of that rank is in = the Left tower, upper deck and is metal. Curious. The Choir is in the lower portion of the left tower. In between, in the wood triangle, is the star = of the Zimbelstern.   Here's the spec. The stops are all drawknobs, and the couplers are tilt-tablets.   PEDAL (unenclosed): Prestantbass 16' Gedecktbass 16' Offenbass 8' (ext. of Prestantbass 16') Choralbass 4' Rauschbass II Mixturbass II Holzposaune 16' Blank (Prep for 4'reed) Great to Pedal 8' Chor to Pedal 8' Chor to Pedal 4'   CHOR (enclosed): Rohrgedackt 8' BLANK (Prepped for a Streichflote 8, but I think a 4' Nachthorn would = serve better) HarfenPrinzipal 4' Blockflote 2' Rausch 2-2/3' Terz 1-3/5' Scharf III Grob Dulzian 8' Tremulant   GREAT (unenclosed): Prestant 8' Barduen 8' Octave 4' Spitzgedackt 4' Quartan II (a 2' and 2-2/3', no breaks) Mixtur III Trompete 8' Chor to Great 16' Chor to Great 8'   Zimbelstern (toe stud only) Generals 1-8 Manual Pistons 1-4 each Gt to Ped (thumb/toe), Ch to Ped (thumb), Ch to Gt (thumb) Full Organ reversible   If I had to bellyache, it'd be about the fact that the Gt does not have an independent 2' and 2-2/3'. Also, as I mentioned above, there is no 4' = flute in the Choir. The principal 4' is nice, but not gentle enough for the 8' and 4' combo. I also can't believe he didn't include an 8' flute in the pedal, and if I ever make changes to the spec, it'll be to borrow the 16' flute and add on the upper 12 pipes. I also would consider putting in a = 32' resultant, and also extending the manual 8's (Principal in Gt, Flute in = Sw) to 16', borrowing the pipes from the Pedal.   If anyone ever tosses in a bucketload of money, I'd like to convert the organ to a true 3-manual instrument, Gt, Sw, Ch. It'd take some = rearranging of the chests and pipes, but it could be done if we move the great into = the center under the window. Anything longer than 4' is in the facade, = anyway, so it'd be do-able.   John, I'd be happy to entertain any more questions...I wasn't sure what details you wanted, exactly. Sorry for being long-"winded".   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: crescendo/tutti From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:20:41 -0500   Jeff White writes:   >I also find that the Crescendo pulls everything on...flutes to principals to mixtures (preferably for me..NO REEDS     To which Paul responded:   I've always been curious-- what is the rationale for leaving reeds off the crescendo pedal?     Paul, I'm not sure. The instrument at my home church didn't have them, = and that's where I "cut my teeth", so I assumed that was the "norm." Each of the instruments I have been talking about have a separate full organ reversible, so maybe it was to allow a full crescendo without necessarily having the reeds come in, and then you can hit the Tutti button to get = them? I'm not really sure.   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: crescendo/tutti From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:23:37 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0016_01C15D4F.DF50D260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       Now, I DID have one thing changed IMMEDIATELY: and that was to remove = the Terz 1-3/5 from both items. That only belongs on Solo registrations, IMHO.       EEEEK! Jeff! Aren't you in a Lutheran church???? The chorus tierce = is SO "Lutheran". Granted, it took me a good while to learn to appreciate it, but I really like it now, especially in unequal temperament (heh heh heh )!   LOL ... Yes, I am in a Lutheran church, Bruce, and I still would remove it again if I had to! :-)   This particular stop is rather bright, and it just "uglied" up the sound, IMHO.   Jeff     ------=3D_NextPart_000_0016_01C15D4F.DF50D260 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3D3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY><FONT size=3D3D2><FONT color=3D3D#0000ff></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = =3D solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=3D20 TYPE=3D3D"CITE"><FONT face=3D3DArial>Now, I DID have one thing changed =3D IMMEDIATELY:=3D20 &nbsp;and that was to remove the <BR>Terz 1-3/5 from both items. =3D &nbsp;That=3D20 only belongs on Solo registrations, IMHO. <BR></FONT></FONT><FONT =3D lang=3D3D0=3D20 color=3D3D#000000 size=3D3D3 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 =3D FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><FONT=3D20 face=3D3DArial><FONT size=3D3D2>EEEEK! &nbsp;&nbsp;Jeff! &nbsp;Aren't you = in =3D a Lutheran=3D20 church???? &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The chorus tierce is SO "Lutheran".=3D20 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Granted, it took me a good while to learn to =3D appreciate it,=3D20 but I really like it now, especially in unequal temperament (heh heh heh = =3D   )!&nbsp;<BR><BR><SPAN class=3D3D230542217-25102001><FONT =3D color=3D3D#0000ff>LOL&nbsp;...=3D20 Yes, I am in a Lutheran church, Bruce, and I still would remove it again = =3D if I=3D20 had to!&nbsp; :-)</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial><FONT=3D20 color=3D3D#0000ff size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D230542217-25102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial><FONT=3D20 color=3D3D#0000ff size=3D3D2><SPAN class=3D3D230542217-25102001>This =3D particular stop is=3D20 rather bright, and it just "uglied" up the sound,=3D20 IMHO.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial><FONT=3D20 color=3D3D#0000ff size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D230542217-25102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial><FONT=3D20 color=3D3D#0000ff size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D230542217-25102001>Jeff</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=3D3D0 color=3D3D#000000 FAMILY=3D3D"SANSSERIF"><FONT =3D face=3D3DArial><FONT=3D20 color=3D3D#0000ff size=3D3D2><SPAN=3D20 class=3D3D230542217-25102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY= =3D ></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_0016_01C15D4F.DF50D260--    
(back) Subject: RE: The Crescendo Crutch From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 12:26:04 -0500   Paul said:   >Perhaps there should be a "Crescendo pedal" off switch!   AAAAARGH! You're SO right, Paul! I remember when I was just assistant organist/accompanist...I had to get on the bench, and the organist had = left the pedal open a bit...so naturally I pressed pedals accidentally while getting on the bench! Oh yeah, the little Green Light IS on!!! LOL   Jeff    
(back) Subject: rollschweller/crescendo/free combinations From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:25:51 -0700   The German romantic "Walze" had a handy gadget ... there was almost invariably a gauge of some sort, so you could tell how far open the crescendo was ... and there was also a "Walze off" piston ... so the crescendo could be opened to the desired point, and then cancelled until it was needed.   Very useful, considering that German organs of that period might have had only two, three or four "free combinations" by way of registration assistance. Those were sorta handy too, in that you COULD change the pistons WHILE you were playing, if you HAD to, by means of the little tabs above each stop ... there was one row of tabs for each free combination ... sort of a setterboard, but directly above the stops.   As I recall, you also had the option of the free combinations CANCELLING the stop-rail, or ADDING whatever was on the free combination to whatever was already drawn on the stop-rail.   Cheers,   Bud