PipeChat Digest #2462 - Friday, October 26, 2001
 
Re: stop tabs
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ
  by "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #2460 - 10/26/01
  by "Robert F. Ziegler" <rfziegler@ameritech.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #2460 - 10/26/01
  by "Robert F. Ziegler" <rfziegler@ameritech.net>
Re:Gobbledegoup!
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Newbe
  by "Vern Jones" <soundres@foothill.net>
RE: Tim's "fireside chat"
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
white flag, white flag! Prozac cocktails all round (grin)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: Langlais's typos
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re:Gobbledegoup!
  by "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com>
Re: white flag, white flag! Prozac cocktails all round (grin)
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: tierces in chorus mixtures
  by "Mandy Glass" <amadpoet@lycos.com>
Re: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ
  by "Mandy Glass" <amadpoet@lycos.com>
Help: need text and tune ref
  by "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net>
Plain text
  by "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com>
PLEASE READ - Re: ALL READ
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
 

(back) Subject: Re: stop tabs From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:27:40 EDT     --part1_64.15395b56.290b132c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 10/25/2001 3:37:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:     > > What WERE *old* stop tabs made of? It seems to me I played MORE than my > share of old > organs with broken-off stop tabs, BUT *not* Mollers or Austins (except = for > that one > poor abused Artiste) ... THOSE seem to last forever ... they just get > yellower and > yellower (grin). > >   Well, let's see...some of the builders used an early form of injection-moulded plastic...Reuter's older consoles had these wonderfuul looking simulated-ivory stop tabs. Moller used a special celluloid-plastic, the formula of which was subject = to some change. I had to replace an entire set of tabs on a late-20's Moller here in town a few years back because the tabs had disintergrated and = snapped off right where they hit the bumper felt in the nameboard. I got exact replicas made by HESCo in Hagerstown, who were making and engraving the MOller tabs since sometime in the 70's. I have also seen some Moller = consoles built in the late 50's where the plasic became granular and literally = flaked apart...this was brillian white in color, where a lot of moller's tabs and =   nameplates (not the signature plate, but things like divisional identifications, toe-stud and pedal identification and the like) were sort = of an ivorine/white color.   Rick in VA   --part1_64.15395b56.290b132c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 10/25/2001 3:37:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <BR>What WERE *old* stop tabs made of? It seems to me I played MORE than = my share of old <BR>organs with broken-off stop tabs, BUT *not* Mollers or Austins (except = for that one <BR>poor abused Artiste) ... THOSE seem to last forever ... they just get = yellower and <BR>yellower (grin). <BR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>Well, let's see...some of the builders used an early form of = injection-moulded plastic...Reuter's older consoles had these wonderfuul = looking simulated-ivory stop tabs. <BR>Moller used a special celluloid-plastic, the formula of which was = subject to some change. I had to replace an entire set of tabs on a = late-20's Moller here in town a few years back because the tabs had = disintergrated and snapped off right where they hit the bumper felt in the = nameboard. I got exact replicas made by HESCo in Hagerstown, who were = making and engraving the MOller tabs since sometime in the 70's. I have = also seen some Moller consoles built in the late 50's where the plasic = became granular and literally flaked apart...this was brillian white in = color, where a lot of moller's tabs and nameplates (not the signature = plate, but things like divisional identifications, toe-stud and pedal = identification and the like) were sort of an ivorine/white color. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_64.15395b56.290b132c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ From: "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:49:09 -0500   > <snip>Bud's followup posting made clear that > he had no idea what the fuss was about, and he ain't stupid. > > <snip>   I have never seen the list in Digest form, which I believe is part of the problem with all the extra stuff some people carelessly leave at = the end of a posting replying to another. I gather this makes the business of reading the digest interminable.   <more of Malcolm's message snipped>     Well Malcolm and list,   I can understand Tim's frustration. As a digest subscriber I found reading = the list requires a great deal of scrolling. It's not just headers and = footers, but there are many posters who simply refuse to send their = messages in plain text only (in other words not just the three publicly = called to task). To give you a flavor of what digest subscribers must digest I've taken the liberty of copying in a = portion goobledyguck (that's a technical term) from the same digest. With = apologies to digest subscribers who know full well what we put up with = here it is for the benefit of those who get individual messages.   Steve   and I quote! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> associated with a NAZI list. To which I shall take this opportunity to = apologize to you directly if I in any way offended you via that list. It was not an intentional endeavor.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3D#800000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond = color=3D#800000>Best wishes to you,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond = color=3D#800000>Robert Colasacco</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3D#800000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3D#800000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3D#800000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D299062215-26102001><FONT face=3DGaramond color=3D#800000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> OrganNYC@aol.com [mailto:OrganNYC@aol.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 25, 2001 4:11 PM<BR><B>To:</B> pipechat@pipechat.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: rollschweller/crescendo/free combinations<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DVerdana color=3D#030025 = size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">In a message dated 10/25/01 2:19:39 PM Eastern = Daylight Time, RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org writes: <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 = face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE=3D"CITE">The crescendo at Heavenly Rest in NYC (pre-fire) had light indicators. There <BR>were little lights in a row that lit up one at a = time from left to right as <BR>one opened further the crescendo. In fact, I = think they were there for the <BR>Swell shades as well on the Choir, Swell and = Solo divisions. But that was a <BR>great feature to know that the crescendo = was up 1/4 or 1/2 or 3/4 or however <BR>much open. <BR>Robert Colasacco <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=3D0 face=3DVerdana color=3D#030025 = size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR>The present 5-manual console at Church of the = Heavenly Rest, built by Guilbault-Therien in 1993, retains the green lights for the = 4 swell shoes. &nbsp;I think there are about 8 lights for each shoe. = &nbsp;The Crescendo indicator is a digital readout, located on the upper left corner = of the right stop jamb. &nbsp;Crescendo selector switches (Standard, A, B, C) = are on the left stop jamb with the rest of the SSL controls. <BR><BR>Steve = Lawson <BR>Assistant, Church of the Heavenly Rest</FONT> </FONT></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C15E34.673EBE00--          
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #2460 - 10/26/01 From: "Robert F. Ziegler" <rfziegler@ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:13:05 -0700   on 10/26/2001 8:26 AM, PipeChat wrote:   > Microsoft Outlook automatically begins a reply by placing everything in = the > previous message into the window below the cursor.   This feature can be turned off.   Bob.   -- Bob Ziegler organgrinder@ameritech.net ICQ #134142646   Playing in the key of "off" in beautiful downtown Sauk Village, Illinois.    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #2460 - 10/26/01 From: "Robert F. Ziegler" <rfziegler@ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:14:46 -0700   on 10/26/2001 8:26 AM, PipeChat wrote:   > > Subject: RE: ALL READ > From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:15:36 -0400 > > I'd rather not be on a NAZI list. Do remove me. > Robert Colasacco > > -----Original Message----- > From: Administrator [mailto:admin@pipechat.org] > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:40 PM > To: PipeChat > Cc: admin@pipechat.org > Subject: ALL READ > Well, I don't remember either seeing a subtle message. You may as well remove me from the list too. I think Tim overreacted greatly.   Bob.   -- Bob Ziegler rfziegler@ameritech.net AIM: zieglerbob99 Yahoo: zieglerbob ICQ #134142646   Playing in the key of "off" in beautiful downtown Sauk Village, Illinois    
(back) Subject: Re:Gobbledegoup! From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:23:21 EDT   Dear Listers, digest and otherwise:   I had the gobbledegoup problem on my upgrade to AOL 6.0 and 7.0. To solve it Ad sent me a 19 page work around, and the distillation is: in AOL click on settings, click on preferences, click on fonts, texts and graphics, click on Reset. ( this is only done one time) all the rest of the time when sending, click EDIT, click select all (It turns the back ground dark grey) then right click on the mouse button, click text, click normal and send. (DON'T Do anything else) just click send.   Compuserve may have a similar problem as well as others, as all the major internet vendors seem to be favoring rich text instead of ascii plain text. I hope this helps some folks, because when this happens the offender doesn't even know. His/her screen looks fine. Since I upgraded All looks fine in my mail window, except for people who send like stevec did then I can see it again.   At least I hope this helps AOL people who are upgrading beyond 5.0 the above is how to do it. With a new computer you have no other choice as they come loaded with either AOL 6.0 or 7.0.  
(back) Subject: Newbe From: "Vern Jones" <soundres@foothill.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:47:31 +0000   To All,   This is my first post to the group, I have watched the posts, true when some things aren't edited, they can get rather lengthy. I have had mail programs do strange things over the years, and some things aren't always apparent. I hate to see good contributors leave just as I'm getting started. Hopefully things will work out for all.   My reason for joining is to make things easier for organist, and provide MIDI and Control Enhancements for their/your instruments, I try to read all comments and glean what bits of knowledge that I can to make my products more friendly for you.   Vern Jones, Sound Research    
(back) Subject: RE: Tim's "fireside chat" From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:46:57 -0400   If this is a problem, a rather simple enhancement to the list software = might be able to take care of it.   I have encountered other software on the Net that prevents double-posting = by recognizing when a message is identical or very similar to another recent message. We need only a little more complexity:   Unintentional quotes don't usually change existing word-wrap; hence a long-integer hash value could be meaningfully produced and kept for the alphanumeric text of each line of the message database. This is much more compact and easier for the machine to read than the whole line. Then the incoming message could be hashed and (if it were long enough to worry = about at all, and many messages are obviously innocuous by simply being short) compared against the hashes of the existing lines. Within the = long-integer domain of some four billion, it would be rare for any incoming line spuriously to have the same hash code as an already-posted line. The program would verify that two lines with identical codes were really identical text, and if so, look for further identical text in the two messages. If the number of duplicate lines reached a certain percentage (I'd say 25% would be a realistic trigger, while far below the actual "egregious" examples that provoked Tim's annoyance), the message would not be posted, but automatically bounced back to the sender with an = explanation that it contains too much quoted or repeated material.   Another, much simpler check that would catch some of the same problems would be simply to count the lines whose first character is '>', and = bounce the message back if this exceeds a tolerable threshold fraction.   The above sounds, when described, like a lot of work for the computer; but when you compare it to the work of sending out, and of other sites transmitting and receiving, a couple thousand copies (several K each) of material that should not be sent, it is a drop in the bucket even from a technical standpoint, let alone the human one.   Perhaps an idea like this has already been provided in a version of a list manager, or an add-on utility. If not-- well, it's probably another reason to dive into Linux, because this kind of application whets my own programming appetite.   Paul    
(back) Subject: RE: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:23:13 -0400   Horrors! All that embedded HTML is quite an assault on the eyes and patience of anyone reading plain text.   Whenever I get such stuff at home in e-mail messages it's a sure sign of uninvited spam, and I delete it promptly with added gusto, not trying to read even a word of it. People who know me know that I like things lean = and mean, including online data streams. I can almost thank these senders for so vividly proclaiming themselves not-my-class-dearie.   There are two possible palliatives, when you encounter HTML files that you do want to read. Neither is utterly trouble-free unless you have a way to get your mail reader to make messages into files automatically or in = bulk-- but I just transferred your HTML fragment below into a file and read that file with Netscape (put the pathname in the space where the URL would ordinarily go). The result was a perfectly legible page, even though it = was just a fragment of the original message. Secondly, I suspect that it = would be easy to write a program to clean up a file, removing the HTML code and leaving you with plain text. I tried doing it a few years ago with gratifying success. HTML has become more complex in the meantime and probably broken it at some point, but what makes it simple is that most codes have a beginning marker and a complementary end marker. A program must take out all the code sections. When it sees a beginning marker, it knows what end marker to look for and just deletes everything up to and including it. In the process, it probably has gotten rid of a few other HTML codes as well, which were imbedded inside the first one. The plain = text is what is left over when all code sections have been removed. Perhaps Channel 1 or someone else has freeware that does this.   Paul Emmons    
(back) Subject: white flag, white flag! Prozac cocktails all round (grin) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:04:40 -0700   HEAVENS!   I don't think Tim intended this to escalate into a major war/sign-off orgy.   SO LET'S NOT GO THERE.   I'M not going anywhere.   I was pissed, but I've had The Week From The Ninth Circle Of Hell this week, between being in the hospital and dealing with the Father R****m.   I THOUGHT my mail was set to send plain text only ... I'll check again to be sure.   It strikes me that the number of complaints from digest subscribers suggests (to me, at least) that digest mode is more trouble than it's worth. I've never used it, so I don't know. I have high-speed cable modem access, so the individual messages download almost instantly.   If people need to get the messages in a "chunk" and then get off-line to avoid phone charges, on my mail program, at least, all you have to do is highlight the first message, hold down "shift" and "down arrow" until ALL the messages are highlighted, and then hit "Enter", and all the messages are downloaded and opened, and you can get off-line if you need to.   Cheers,   Bud-by-the-Beach    
(back) Subject: Re: Langlais's typos From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:20:39 -0500       Randy Runyon wrote:   > >PS and yes, you're right, as soon as I purchase the new $1000 copy, = I'll > >find the old one with the corrections that my professor provided me = with. > >Seems the original publication had two typos and he knew that because = he was > >a close friend of Langlais. > > There are a lot of typos in Langlais's music, I was told by Mme > Langlais.   I have spoken with one of Langlais' later students who told me that he = owns a copy of a document sanctioned by Mssr. Langlais detailing the errata in = L~'s various scores. I assume that Anne Labounsky in Pittsburgh has a similar = list, and that it may appear in her biography of Langlais....   ns    
(back) Subject: Re:Gobbledegoup! From: "Adrianne Schutt" <maybe@pipcom.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:34:47 -0400   At 04:23 PM 26/10/2001 -0400, Ron Severin wrote: >I had the gobbledegoup problem on my upgrade to AOL 6.0 and >7.0. To solve it Ad sent me a 19 page work around,   I object. The workaround I sent you for "gobbledygook" (per Merriam-Webster), was a whopping 5 lines of text....in a very clear numbered list format, no less.   http://members.aol.com/adamkb/aol/mailfaq/#aol6html   Your "distillation" uses 64 words to say what the site does in 58. Gotta love word processors that'll do the counting for me... <vbg>   Have fun! Ad ;->    
(back) Subject: Re: white flag, white flag! Prozac cocktails all round (grin) From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:42:19 EDT   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:       > I THOUGHT my mail was > set to send plain text only ... I'll check again to be > sure.   Yes, Bud, it's in plain text. You can check it in the footer.   Vicki  
(back) Subject: Re: tierces in chorus mixtures From: "Mandy Glass" <amadpoet@lycos.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:19:24 -0500   On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 11:24:15 Cremona502 wrote (in part):   << Pilcher Dolce Cornet >>   Is it just me, or does that name sound like a British finger food? ;o)   Mandy     Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp  
(back) Subject: Re: Malcolm's reply to ALL READ From: "Mandy Glass" <amadpoet@lycos.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 18:42:29 -0500   <<It's not just headers and footers, but there are many posters who simply = refuse to send their messages in plain text only (in other words not just = the three publicly called to task). >>   Hi Steve--   This is frustrating indeed, but let me just remind everyone here that if = some of us are sending weird, coded messages to the list we may not = REALIZE we are doing so. My puter is a strange machine indeed--sometimes = it changes its own settings (or deletes files without my consent, but = that's another story). If you find someone is sending wacky messages, TELL = THEM! :o)   Mandy     Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp  
(back) Subject: Help: need text and tune ref From: "Stan Yoder" <vze2myh5@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 20:09:40 -0400   Can anyone cite a reference that gives text (German and/or Engl. transl.) and tune for a hymn/chorale that begins:   "Alone, yet not alone am I, though in this solitude so drear; I feel my Savior always nigh, He comes my dreary home to cheer."   Seems to me that somewhere I've seen a first line "Allein, aber[?] nicht = allein......."   Any known organ treatments of the tune?   TIA, Stan Yoder Pittsburgh   Private email probably best.  
(back) Subject: Plain text From: "Randy Terry" <randyterryus@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:10:29 -0700 (PDT)   I have changed my email to send plain text. I hope this works.   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Randy Terry, Director of Music & Organist Mona Dena, Principal Choir Director The Episcopal Church of St. Peter Redwood City, California www.stpetersrwc.org   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: PLEASE READ - Re: ALL READ From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 19:27:46 -0500   Ok Folks, Calm down!! <G> No one is being thrown off the list but a point had to be made.   Below is an example of what Tim was referring to yesterday in his posting. This is taken from one of the 6 Digests that were produced yesterday. I am not including any of the rest of the post, only the "footers" that appeared in one post, mainly to not embarrass anyone. ******************************************* > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related = topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org **************************************************************   The fifth footer was the one attached to the reply that was done on the topic. The others were from the PREVIOUS posts in the thread. Because those previous footers were still attached it shows that the person sending this message hadn't bothered to edit out the previous postings. The posting that this was taken from contained 100 lines of text with ONLY THREE line of NEW comment/content added at the top!!!   One of Tim's points yesterday was that this is inconsiderate of your fellow list members. There are approximately one-third of the 450+ members of this list that get it in Digest format. Not only do they need to scroll through all the "goobledyguck" ( As Steve Chandler so named it <G>) but they also have to scroll through all the various repeats of previous posts because someone hasn't bothered to do some editing when replying. Actually, we might have been able to get by with less than 6 Digests IF people had done some editing. We, the Administrators, have gotten several notes from list members thanking Tim for his post. Those folks are very frustrated with having to go through all the repeats.   BTW, I know that there was a posting saying that the person didn't know if the offenders had received a private note about this. Well, of course, someone that hasn't "offended" wouldn't know if we, the Administrators, had sent a private posting. But we do send out many private postings warning people about infractions of the rules. But once in awhile we do need to go public with our comments.   While I am on the subject of the Digests, I am glad that Steve pointed out what the result of sending messages that are not in Plain Text do in the Digests. I know that it is a problem with some of the newer email programs where it is a royal pain to figure out how to turn off the HTML and/or Rich Text formats that some of them use. But in MOST cases that can be turned off. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE figure out how to do so, again out of respect to your fellow list members.   Trying to administer a list such as this one, actually trying to administer almost any email mailing list, is really a balancing act. And at times you are "Damned if you do" and "Damned if you don't" as far as making and enforcing rules for the functioning of a list. The PipeChat list was set-up to be a "freer" environment than the PipOrg-L list which is, for want of a better description on my part, a more "scholarly" list. I have tried to maintain that "Freer" environment all throughout my tenure as Administrator and List Owner. But please remember that there have to be some rules followed by all members. And these rules were set-up mainly as common courtesy to each other as members of this list. Please do try to abide with them.   Another point I would like to address is the one that someone brought up about Bandwidth and Internet Charges. Although most of the members of this list are here in the United States and most of us pay a flat monthly charge there are some members "across the pond". I don't know if things have changed in some other countries but the last I heard people in other countries sometimes had their charges based on the amount of bandwidth they used in downloading their email. This may not still be the case but if it is still in force in various places we should be considerate of those members that have to deal with this system. And there might be some members here in the States that have to pay for Long-Distance phone charges in order to get their mail. Please be considerate of them also.   Finally, please remember that we, Tim and I, are human also! <G> We have our bad days and although we do try to temper our administrative posts sometimes what else is going on in our lives will affect the way we come across on the List. I know that both of us do try to think things out before sending off an Administrative posting but there might be times that we maybe jump a little too fast. But let's face it, after a long and sometimes difficult day it isn't easy to come home and read through ALL the mail on the list. Right now, I would much prefer to be sitting vegging out in front of the TV rather than writing this posting. But it is my responsibility to sit here and write all of you, that is part of what being a List Owner/Administrator is all about. Neither of us get paid for doing any of this, actually, it costs me to keep this list up and running but it is something that I do, and I know that Tim also does, because of our love of the instrument and our being able to be of service to this community by providing this list.   One other point, that many of you have broken today, is that Administrative Postings are NOT a topic of discussion on the list. If you read the history of email mailing lists you will discover that they are not democracies but "Benevolent Dictatorships" I pay the costs so I get to set the rules! <G> As some of you know, I run numerous other lists also and in the case of at least one of them before someone is admitted to the list membership they have to read and agree to follow the guidelines for that list. That isn't required for the PipeChat list but I hope that most of you have read the list Guidelines on the list's web site. Although it doesn't specifically say it discussion of Administrative postings are NOT a topic for discussion.   And with all of that I now hope that we can get back to HAPPY = PipeChatting!!   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org