PipeChat Digest #2372 - Saturday, September 15, 2001
 
RE NPR and Other news
  by "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net>
Re: RE NPR and Other news
  by <ORGANUT@aol.com>
Re: fundamentalism & war
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Hatred
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
A CANADIAN EDITORIAL
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: Hatred and the right to speak out
  by "westbach" <westbach@t-online.de>
Re: fundamentalism
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
Re: A Personal Thought
  by "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com>
SEBASTIAN GLUCK'S REPORT ON THE NEW YORK TRAGEDY
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: Hatred and the right to speak out
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE NPR and Other news From: "Wayne Grauel" <wgvideo@attglobal.net> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:16:03 -0400   Phil, the older I get the worse my tiping is......:>)   I have a space after http:// just type www.drudgereport.com or = http://drudgereport.com/   there's new info since last night....   Peace Wayne    
(back) Subject: Re: RE NPR and Other news From: <ORGANUT@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:05:43 EDT   Thanks for the information, Wayne.   Later, Phil L.  
(back) Subject: Re: fundamentalism & war From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 08:38:54 EDT     --part1_110.55cc350.28d4a5de_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 9/14/2001 6:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, amadpoet@lycos.com writes:     > It's one of life's bitter ironies that the fanatics of the world often = set > our views of religions. There are no easy answers in this time, but I = for > one am holding on to the fact that GOD LIVES and WILL protect us, = whether > on earth or in heaven. > >   Mandy makes a very valid point - that we must be careful to >seperate< the =   practice of religion from the political agendas that are 'piggy-backed' = onto religious practice by those whe seek to further their own agenda. Despite = the claims of those (more radical) sects of Islam who wish to engage in a so-called "holy war", the basic tenets of their religion do NOT endorse = this consept. It is one thing to defend one's faith, it is entirely another = thing to use ones religion (faith?) to act as an agressor to one's (percieved) enemy. Christ calls us to pray for those who wish to do us harm, not act to get revenge. "Vengence is mine" is what god says to us. I hope that we can step forward within the congregations we serve and act = as leaders to bring our fellow worshipers, using our gifts of music, into a deeper sense of God's presence. It is challenging enough to do this under normal circumstances.   Rick in VA   --part1_110.55cc350.28d4a5de_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 9/14/2001 6:23:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, amadpoet@lycos.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It's one of life's = bitter ironies that the fanatics of the world often set our views of = religions. There are no easy answers in this time, but I for one am = holding on to the fact that GOD LIVES and WILL protect us, whether on = earth or in heaven. <BR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>Mandy makes a very valid point - that we must be careful to = &gt;seperate&lt; the practice of religion from the political agendas that = are 'piggy-backed' onto religious practice by those whe seek to further = their own agenda. Despite the claims of those (more radical) sects of = Islam who wish to engage in a so-called "holy war", the basic tenets of = their religion do NOT endorse this consept. It is one thing to defend = one's faith, it is entirely another thing to use ones religion (faith?) to = act as an agressor to one's (percieved) enemy. <BR>Christ calls us to pray for those who wish to do us harm, not act to = get revenge. "Vengence is mine" is what god says to us. <BR>I hope that we can step forward within the congregations we serve and = act as leaders to bring our fellow worshipers, using our gifts of music, = &nbsp;into a deeper sense of God's presence. It is challenging enough to = do this under normal circumstances. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_110.55cc350.28d4a5de_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Hatred From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:21:41 -0400   I find it interesting that a year ago, "Clinton Bashing" was rabidly defended as "free Speech", but now if anything is said that could in any way be construed as derogatory about "dubya" it is immediately labeled "Leftist Hatred". Kindly remember that the MAJORITY of Americans voted AGAINST him.   As an American, and a Vietnam Veteran, I enjoy the right to be critical of ANY politician, at any time, and frankly, I'm old enough ( and intelligent enough) to understand the difference between criticizing a polititian and supporting the Government of the United States in a time of crisis.   As a registered Republican, I resent the implication that, because I don't agree with the head of the Republican Party on EVERYTHING, I am a "Hateful Leftist". I think that your comments, and others like yours, are the MOST hurtful things posted on this list.     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY     On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:02:21 -0500 "Mr. Berley Antoine Firmin II" <Firman1@prodigy.net> writes: > The hatred from the leftists on this list for President Bush does not > belong > here. We should all unite in this time of tragedy. > Mr. Berley Antoine Firmin II > Bayou La Combe, Louisiana > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: A CANADIAN EDITORIAL From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:02:59 -0700 (PDT)   For Everyone:   Here is a very interesting editorial I thought everyone woud appreciate in this time or tragedy.   D. Keith Morgan   TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television Commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts.   None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.   When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.   I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?   If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.   You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.   I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.   Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."   Stand proud, America! Wear it proudly!! This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.   I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this, TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES         __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/  
(back) Subject: Re: Hatred and the right to speak out From: "westbach" <westbach@t-online.de> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:14:34 +0200   Dear Listers,   In reference to what D. Campbell had to say about expressing your own = opinion:   "As an American, and a Vietnam Veteran, I enjoy the right to be critical of ANY politician, at any time, and frankly, I'm old enough ( and intelligent enough) to understand the difference between criticizing a polititian and supporting the Government of the United States in a time of crisis."   I couldn't agree more. No one should be expected to uncritically assess = the actions of elected officals just because there is a national crisis. On = the contrary, in such a situation I think that I should support the national consciousness to mourn, bind wounds, and move on. I do not feel any need = to support George Bush's ideas of revenge or retaliation, nor his apparent = wish to declare war even if most others consider this standing behind the = President.   If I attend an organ concert, I have the right to be critical, even if it = was the person's best effort. I don't have to be abusive, or rude, but I may have = my opinion as to the quality of the performance. Likewise, I may assess the Presidential address to the nation as "wooden", even if it comes in a time = of crisis and it is the best that he could do.   Patriotism is a tricky thing - I don't feel the need to go with the flow = if it isn't right for me. I do not suscribe to the idea: my country - right or = wrong. I am thankful for American ideals and I am confident that we shall rebuild = and be stronger for it - if we are not afraid to excercise our right to free = speech to find a consensus on how to proceed.   Sincerely, Sam Westbrook    
(back) Subject: Re: fundamentalism From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:05:11 -0400   Dear List,   In a discussion of "what music to play ?" there was a post from a publisher suggesting a particular piece, and the web site fo their catalog. This evoked some harsh critism about "commerializing a tragic event". Are not the comments by Fallwell and Robertson really just the same sort of "commercialism" ???????     Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY       On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:06:26 -0700 quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: > Jerry Falwell's and Pat Robertson's remarks only serve to illustrate > the > very real danger of fundamentalism, whether Islamic or Christian. > Neither can preach hate on the one hand and then piously seek to > wash > their hands on the other when the violence they aid, abet and > encourage > actually HAPPENS. They CREATE the climate; it's simple enough to > find > people to carry out their IDEAS. > > I don't doubt that we will see a marked increase in violence > perpetrated > by AMERICANS against the groups they mentioned as a result of their > EVIL > remarks. > > Bud Clark > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: Re: A Personal Thought From: "Douglas A Campbell" <dougcampbell@juno.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:11:25 -0400   I woiuld point out that Mr. Gordon Sinclair's broadcast of this commentary was done in June of 1973 !!!       Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY     On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:13:03 EDT ORGANUT@aol.com writes: > > Folks, > > Such a Satanic act of hate and destruction has been unleashed > against this > great nation and its' people as to be incomprehensible to me. We > need to > call on a higher power to help us get through this tragedy. I do > not know > what god these demons worship nor do I want to. It certainly is > not the God > I pray to. > > GOD, bless and protect America. Thank you for the gift of life and > all its' > advantages and thank you for the incredible blessing of being born > an > American. > Phil Lyons Jr. > > This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. > America: The Good Neighbor. > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a > remarkable > editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian > television > commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks > as > printed in the Congressional Record: > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as > the most > generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were > lifted out of > the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars > and > forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today > paying > even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the > Americans who > propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on > the > streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that > hurries in > to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by > tornadoes. > Nobody helped. > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars > into > discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing > about > the decadent, warmongering Americans. > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over > the > erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any > other > country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the > Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly > them? Why > do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman > on the > moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You > talk > about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. > You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the > moon-not once, > but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, > and the > Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look > at. > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here > on our > streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, > are > getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. > When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down > through > age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania > Railroad > and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old > caboose. Both > are still broke. > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of > other > people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else > raced to > the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even > during > the San Francisco earthquake. > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is > damned tired > of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing > with > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their > nose at > the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope > Canada is > not one of those." > Stand proud, America! I would hope that each of you would send this > to as > many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as > many of > their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >  
(back) Subject: SEBASTIAN GLUCK'S REPORT ON THE NEW YORK TRAGEDY From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 09:33:43 -0700 (PDT)   Everyone:   One of the most touching reports I have read regarding the New York tragedy comes from Sebastian Gluck in New York City who has seen first-hand the gravity of the situation. I believe you all would enjoy reading it.   D. Keith Morgan   Dear Listers:   Although I said that I might not be in a posting mood, I do not know what kind of coverage you're getting, and from what I've seen on television, it is not really possible to fathom the enormity of this. The news has focused on a the two large towers, when in reality, many buildings, as high as 70-odd stories, have collapsed, and even those which remain standing have been blasted out into hollow shells of dust and shattered glass, with nothing inside at all recognizable or salvageable.   Caverns of debris, buildings at odd angles, and streets piled many stories deep with bodies, body parts, rubble, and vehicles, are completely unpassable to rescue crews. Fires continue to burn, and collapses, large and small, are a constant threat.   Every Rescue Squad in the City of New York has been killed. Gone.   We feel totally vulnerable. FDNY's top officials, as well as their Chaplain, were killed as well. Nearly three hundred firefighters were murdered in this attack, rushing into danger as the victims fled for their lives.   This morning's daily visit to the firehouse brought me the news that a twelfth member of the unit had perished. As you know, both NYPD and FDNY are multigenerational, family jobs, so that husbands, brothers, fathers, uncles, nephews, are all waiting to hear, with little hope.   There is very little room or way to get around, there is so much rubble. Huge skyscrapers toppled into the streets, millions of tons of steel and concrete, and the thousands of bodies still inside. Needless to say, the odor has become gruesome and pervasive at this end of the island, and it may be weeks before they can get to the all of the bodies.   The most heartbreaking horror was to see people leaping from windows, 105 stories up, making their peace with The Almighty, choosing to leave this earth on their OWN terms, and not give themselves over to the flames. Some even telephoned their spouses before taking the plunge, calmly saying their goodbyes, conveying their love. It's just unbearable, even for those of us who, like me, are really NOT touched directly by this crime.   There are occasional good stories, including one firefighter who fell 83 FLOORS and survived, shielding himself in some kind of container on the way down, as if going over Niagra Falls in a barrel. Others, after three days, managed to make a telephone call on their cellphone from an air pocket in the basement.   On a closing note, New York City is a magnet for aspiring performing artists, actors, musicians, singers, dancers. Many of them survive by doing corporate secreterial work, both regular and temporary, and there is no doubt that amongst the dead, there will be many kindred spirits in the performing arts.   The city is grimly plastered with photocopied snapshots and descriptions of the missing, yet they are posted with very little hope at this stage. Identification will be very difficult, and many, many families will have remains to bury. Many hope to at least find their loved one's wedding or engagement ring.   With all of the little skirmishes we have on these chat lists, pipe vs. non-pipe, to chiff or not to chiff, mechanical action versus radio-controlled hydraulic slider chests, we are all truly good human beings, unable to conceive of the kind of hatred, the thought process, that would lead to this type of calculated, meticulous mass murder, directed solely at innocent people.   The numbing pain of this is giving way to anger, as I walk the empty streets except for the emergency and military and law enforcement vehicles, and smell death everywhere. But I am confident that those who financed this crime are a rare few. One cannot threaten or retaliate against people when they do not value human life, including their own.   Unfortunately, we do not have a Churchill or an FDR to bolster our confidence, and our President's flat, four-minute, emotion-free speech, eight long hours after the attack, left New Yorkers feeling worse than before. We are still waiting for him to come to NYC and act as a leader. In the mean time, we are New Yorkers: grizzly bears on the outside, teddy bears on the inside. Thanks to all who have written, and my prayers to all of you who have lost family, friends, colleagues, or spiritual leaders in this amazing event in human history.   Sebastian   __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/  
(back) Subject: Re: Hatred and the right to speak out From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 12:45:32 -0400   Dear Sam, Right on. I too am a Vietnam veteran. As I said in a previous post, I have seen the dead, held the wounded and those who wish they were dead. I listened to a friend of mine burn to death in his cockpit while in the ops vehicle. As I again said,"If you want to preach war, you had better have been in one and seen the consequences." There is a difference between patriotism and jingoism. American need to remember those lunatics of WWII such as Hitler who believed that Germany was some kind of superior race = and could not be defeated. God help America. = Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "westbach" <westbach@t-online.de> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:14 PM Subject: Re: Hatred and the right to speak out     > Dear Listers, > > In reference to what D. Campbell had to say about expressing your own opinion: > > "As an American, and a Vietnam Veteran, I enjoy the right to be critical > of ANY politician, at any time, and frankly, I'm old enough ( and > intelligent enough) to understand the difference between criticizing a > polititian and supporting the Government of the United States in a time > of crisis." > > I couldn't agree more. No one should be expected to uncritically assess the > actions of elected officals just because there is a national crisis. On the > contrary, in such a situation I think that I should support the national > consciousness to mourn, bind wounds, and move on. I do not feel any = need to > support George Bush's ideas of revenge or retaliation, nor his apparent wish to > declare war even if most others consider this standing behind the President. > > If I attend an organ concert, I have the right to be critical, even if = it was the > person's best effort. I don't have to be abusive, or rude, but I may = have my > opinion as to the quality of the performance. Likewise, I may assess = the > Presidential address to the nation as "wooden", even if it comes in a = time of > crisis and it is the best that he could do. > > Patriotism is a tricky thing - I don't feel the need to go with the flow if it > isn't right for me. I do not suscribe to the idea: my country - right = or wrong. > I am thankful for American ideals and I am confident that we shall = rebuild and be > stronger for it - if we are not afraid to excercise our right to free speech to > find a consensus on how to proceed. > > Sincerely, > Sam Westbrook > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >