PipeChat Digest #2379 - Monday, September 17, 2001
 
the full text of Osama ben Laden's 1998 fatwa (X-posted, long)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: "Normalcy": the Rabbinal View
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: A spirit of forgiveness and understanding
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@home.com>
tears today
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: A spirit of forgiveness and understanding
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
the disruption at Mass this morning
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: tears today
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: tears today :addentum
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: The worst thing in New York
  by <Tspiggle@aol.com>
Re: The worst thing in New York
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: The worst thing in New York
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
"jerry fallwell"  [lower case, intentionally]
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: "jerry fallwell"  [lower case, intentionally]
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
Re: "jerry fallwell"  [lower case, intentionally]
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: "jerry fallwell"  [lower case, intentionally]
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
Re: The list Owner's Post
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net>
 

(back) Subject: the full text of Osama ben Laden's 1998 fatwa (X-posted, long) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 16:37:12 -0700   Thanks to a friend, here's the complete text:   Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement   23 February 1998 Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh   Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter. No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:   First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.   Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.   So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.   Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.   All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life." On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it [EMPHASIS ADDED], in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God." This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'" We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. Almighty God said: "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."   Almighty God also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."   Almighty God also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."      
(back) Subject: Re: "Normalcy": the Rabbinal View From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:39:04 EDT     --part1_84.1b7e3230.28d69218_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       > Will any of us remember what happened > NEXT September 11? >   Perhaps not. But two years ago on that date, I gave my recital to commemorate the 35th anniversary of our AGO chapter.   --part1_84.1b7e3230.28d69218_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Will any of us = remember what happened <BR>NEXT September 11? <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Perhaps not. &nbsp;But two years ago on that date, I gave my recital = to commemorate the 35th anniversary of our AGO chapter. = &nbsp;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_84.1b7e3230.28d69218_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: A spirit of forgiveness and understanding From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@home.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:01:08 -0500   Dear Bruce, Can you forward that address to me as well? Thank you.   Russ Greene   -------   On 9/16/01 1:39 PM, douglas morgan wrote:   > Can you send me the E-mail address for Jim & Beth > Dellamano? > > Thanks. > > Keith Morgan > > > --- Cremona502@cs.com wrote: >> I wrote to the Dellamanos after their removal from >> the list and received the >> following reply. I wanted the list to read it and >> consider an apology to >> them.    
(back) Subject: tears today From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:13:48 -0700   Most of the tears were from the older people ... we have at least a couple of WWII veterans in the congregation, MANY Korea veterans, and a few Vietnam veterans.   I was born during WWII, so I don't remember that, but the stories were repeated endlessly in my family; I very CLEARLY remember Korea ... my sister was newly married, and her husband was called up; I was an adult during Vietnam ... at the time I was organist in a large working-class RC church in Cleveland ... I remember the endless Requiems ... few of their young men had college deferments.   So do the older members of my congregation. I kept thinking every time I glanced up in the organ mirror ... "what must they be thinking? how many times are we going to have to fight to keep this nation safe?"   I wonder if our resolve will hold ... this is going to be a long, ugly, dirty war.   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: A spirit of forgiveness and understanding From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:19:16 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Bruce:   I found the address for the Dellamanos. For the benefit of others asking, it is: <marybeth@dellamanomusic.com>.   D. Keith Morgan     --- Russ Greene <rggreene2@home.com> wrote: > Dear Bruce, > Can you forward that address to me as well? Thank > you. > > Russ Greene > > ------- > > On 9/16/01 1:39 PM, douglas morgan wrote: > > > Can you send me the E-mail address for Jim & Beth > > Dellamano? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Keith Morgan > > > > > > --- Cremona502@cs.com wrote: > >> I wrote to the Dellamanos after their removal > from > >> the list and received the > >> following reply. I wanted the list to read it > and > >> consider an apology to > >> them. > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/  
(back) Subject: the disruption at Mass this morning From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:20:56 -0700   Marika - that God loves him is a given; that we in the choir and congregation are safe from possible violence is not.   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: tears today From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:28:20 -0400       quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > I wonder if our resolve will hold ... this is going to be a long, ugly, > dirty war. > > Bud     God Bless you, Bud & the list.   Yes, unfortunately, or necessary, as these things are.   ugly and dirty..   love, Stan  
(back) Subject: Re: tears today :addentum From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:38:27 -0400   My intention in this posting was not intended to be humorous.     quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:   > I wonder if our resolve will hold ... this is going to be a long, ugly, > dirty war. > > Bud     God Bless you, Bud & the list.   Yes, unfortunately, or necessary, as these things are.   ugly and dirty..   love, Stan  
(back) Subject: Re: The worst thing in New York From: <Tspiggle@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:08:44 EDT   Jonathan:   Why don't you check out your facts before you spread gossip and rumors = about fundamentalist Christians (which many on this list are). You may read Rev. =   Falwell's own statement at his web site:   "Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no = one other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled and harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation.   I sincerely regret that comments I made during a long theological = discussion on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of their = context and reported, and that my thoughts....reduced to sound bites....have detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning.   Today, I join millions of people throughout this nation and around the = world in remembering all those who died, and praying for our nation, the victims = of this travesty, and their loved ones".   Personally, I do not care for Rev. Falwell or most other TV preachers, but =   don't like to see information that is not factual promulgated. I am 56 = years old and at one one observation I've made in those years is that the most intolerant people are ususally those that continually stand on their soap boxes accusing others of being intolerant.   Tom  
(back) Subject: Re: The worst thing in New York From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:13:09 -0700   The quotes, in or out of context, are APPALLING. Fundamentalist = christianazis like Fallwell and Robertson are EVIL, EVIL, EVIL ... they want me = imprisoned, or (preferably) DEAD.   Bud CLark   Tspiggle@aol.com wrote:   > Jonathan: > > Why don't you check out your facts before you spread gossip and rumors = about > fundamentalist Christians (which many on this list are). You may read = Rev. > Falwell's own statement at his web site: > > "Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no = one > other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled = and > harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation. > > I sincerely regret that comments I made during a long theological = discussion > on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of their = context > and reported, and that my thoughts....reduced to sound bites....have > detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning. > > Today, I join millions of people throughout this nation and around the = world > in remembering all those who died, and praying for our nation, the = victims of > this travesty, and their loved ones". > > Personally, I do not care for Rev. Falwell or most other TV preachers, = but > don't like to see information that is not factual promulgated. I am 56 = years > old and at one one observation I've made in those years is that the most > intolerant people are ususally those that continually stand on their = soap > boxes accusing others of being intolerant. > > Tom > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: The worst thing in New York From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:50:26 EDT   In a message dated 9/16/01 10:09:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Tspiggle@aol.com writes:   << Why don't you check out your facts before you spread gossip and rumors about fundamentalist Christians (which many on this list are). You may read = Rev. Falwell's own statement at his web site: >>   Of course his website would give his side of the story, but if he was = really proud of what he said, why is he trying to shift the blame away from = himself? And why would so many other people feel the need to publically renounce = his statements. Just using a simple search on AOL, I came up with the = following news articles about it. From the way it reads, he was not only blaming = any terrorists, but rather groups in the US with whom he does not agree. = After reading these comments, I'm even more convinced that mr. falwell and I do = not worship the same God. The one I worship is a God of unconditional love, = not one of alienation nor exclusion.   << You can hear the words directly from the Falwell's mouth at: www.cbn.org/video/700club/index.asp and move the slider to about 48 mins into the interview. >> <A HREF=3D"http://web.cbn.org/video/player.asp?prgm=3D700club&vsrc=3Darchive/0= 91301&seg   =3D">Click here: CBN.com</A>   <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:30.L100fcTE.5267653.684878831">Click here: 09/13: = People For the American Way Statement on Divisive Comments by Religious Right = L</A>   <A HREF=3D"http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/200109= 14/us   /attacks_robertson_falwell_1.html">Click here: Robertson, Falwell: U.S. Vulnerable</A>   <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:30.L100ffvS.5302649.684970571">Click here: 09/14: = AOL News: Robertson Defends Falwell</A>   <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:30.L100ffmm.5300655.684967867">Click here: 09/14: Common Cause Statement On Falwell, Robertson Comments On Terrorist = Attacks</A>   <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:30.L100ffU7.5293402.684962278">Click here: 09/14: Planned Parenthood Asks Americans to Reject Hateful Rhetoric of Robertson = and F</A>   <A HREF=3D"aol://4344:30.L100fesj.5249309.684949949">Click here: 09/14: Advocates for Youth President James Wagoner's Statement On Jerry Falwell's =   Infl</A>  
(back) Subject: "jerry fallwell" [lower case, intentionally] From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 22:53:45 -0400       Tspiggle@aol.com quoted from the jerry fallwell BOOK of Apologies: >   > "Despite the impression some may have from news reports today, I hold no = one > other than the terrorists and the people and nations who have enabled = and > harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on this nation. > > I sincerely regret that comments I made during a long theological = discussion > on a Christian television program yesterday were taken out of their = context > and reported, and that my thoughts....reduced to sound bites....have > detracted from the spirit of this day of mourning." etc.     'Yada yada yada', as that Sanctimonious Windbag sticks his foot in his = mouth..   again........   ...Was it called the 'Christian Minority' the last time that the America paid much attention..   to him?   Someday, you may hear about the Grief that his appointed nazis put the pipe organ installers through...   in his Virginia "church"   Just maybe.   GONE jerry - bye!   Stan   (There may be a post from someone else that I'll share with this list)     PLEASE EXCUSE ME IF MY CRITICISM IF 'jERRY' IS RUINING ANY LIST MEMBER'S FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD!   (jerry and JESUS ain't related at all.. - check your Bible)   humbly, I have no respect for that man  
(back) Subject: Re: "jerry fallwell" [lower case, intentionally] From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:05:15 -0700 (PDT)   Could you tell us about the grief that Jerry's nazis put the organ installers through? --- Stanley Lowkis <nstarfil@mediaone.net> wrote: > > > Tspiggle@aol.com quoted from the jerry fallwell BOOK > of Apologies: > > > > > "Despite the impression some may have from news > reports today, I hold no one > > other than the terrorists and the people and > nations who have enabled and > > harbored them responsible for Tuesday's attacks on > this nation. > > > > I sincerely regret that comments I made during a > long theological discussion > > on a Christian television program yesterday were > taken out of their context > > and reported, and that my thoughts....reduced to > sound bites....have > > detracted from the spirit of this day of > mourning." etc. > > > 'Yada yada yada', as that Sanctimonious Windbag > sticks his foot in his mouth.. > > again........ > > ..Was it called the 'Christian Minority' the last > time that the America > paid much attention.. > > to him? > > Someday, you may hear about the Grief that his > appointed nazis put the > pipe organ installers through... > > in his Virginia "church" > > Just maybe. > > GONE jerry - bye! > > Stan > > (There may be a post from someone else that I'll > share with this list) > > > PLEASE EXCUSE ME IF MY CRITICISM IF 'jERRY' IS > RUINING ANY LIST MEMBER'S > FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD! > > (jerry and JESUS ain't related at all.. - check your > Bible) > > humbly, I have no respect for that man > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/  
(back) Subject: Re: "jerry fallwell" [lower case, intentionally] From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:19:24 -0400       douglas morgan wrote: > > Could you tell us about the grief that Jerry's nazis > put the organ installers through?   I would do it a written injustice. (and inaccuracy since I wasn't there) I've forwarded it to an installer who was there and related the story to me. With his permission, I'll share it with you. I'll hear about it within the next couple of days.   Stan  
(back) Subject: Re: "jerry fallwell" [lower case, intentionally] From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:59:39 -0400   Damn! I hate the way this list is structured to send out public postings, unless you're paying close attention to send 'em private!   Stan       Ok, to Advance the Thread - he has a face reminiscently Porcine, with a voice to match.   ...and with just as much reflexive thought, when in the Swill of the = Media.   IMHO     past   1 gone by; ended : over [our past troubles] 2 of a former time; bygone 3 immediately preceding; just gone by [the past week] 4 having served formerly [a 'past' chairman] 5 'Gram'. indicating an action completed or in progress at a former time etc.:   bye jerry, it's like the Malcolm 'X' "Chickens coming home to Roost" comment after the death of JFK.   BYE!!!!  
(back) Subject: Re: The list Owner's Post From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:30:07 -0400       David Kelzenberg wrote: (in part)   >.. because my mailbox is overflowing > with complaints from other subscribers. > > However, the primary reason these people..     It's been a terrible week for all of us, but an internet list owner "calls the shots". And they can throw anyone off the list that they choose to. For whatever reason that they choose to..   I have Sinned on this list and others. And mercifully have not been kicked =   off yet.   Write to your Representative in Congress if you feel that you have to post on an internet list that you're being unfairly excluded from.   And my commentary is that as these lists get fragmented they become less effective.   We've had a Horrific week in our lives.   And Dave, Ben, David, Tim, and Jerrel have given us a place to vent our feelings.   Not very much about organs has been very important since last week.   Thank you, list owners for giving us this place for us to 'vent'. Damn! I'm crying again.   Love, Stan