PipeChat Digest #3003 - Saturday, August 3, 2002
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
Re: Prices of New Organs
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@attbi.com>
Re: Dr. Jonathan Hall recital today at noon
  by <Chicaleee@aol.com>
Re: Cost of new pipe organs
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
30 Grand per rank?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Pipe Organs
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
prices, etc.
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: 30 Grand per rank?
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
Re: Cost of new pipe organs
  by "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@attbi.com>
Cost of pipe organ
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Cost of new pipe organs
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Pipe Organs
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Margo's comments
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:53:27 EDT     --part1_14f.11e32098.2a7db8e7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Dear Lynn,   Thank you for the nice post in defense of digital instruments. We could not have afforded to put $1.4 million into a full pipe instrument. = We have just installed a beautiful Custom 3 manual 80 stop Allen Renaissance organ in our acoustically live large sanctuary that seats well over 1,200 people. We have a MAGNIFICENT combination pipe/digital instrument. We have =   the following pipe ranks: Principal 8', Octave 4', Fifteenth 2', Harmonic Flute 8' with extensions Flute 4', Flute 2', Mixture II. We are currently having a Trompette en Chamade being built for the back of our rather large =   sanctuary under a beautiful stained glass window.The sound is OUTSTANDING. =   The pipes and digital are seamless in sound. I have always said I would = NEVER have an electronic instrument in my church. Well , with the economy so bad =   and prices so high for ALL pipe instruments, we went with the best we = could afford. Thanks again.   Sincerely,   Daniel   --part1_14f.11e32098.2a7db8e7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Dear Lynn,<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thank you for the nice post in = defense of digital instruments. We could not have afforded to put $1.4 = million into a full pipe instrument. We have just installed a beautiful = Custom 3 manual 80 stop Allen Renaissance organ in our acoustically live = large sanctuary that seats well over 1,200 people. We have a MAGNIFICENT = combination pipe/digital instrument. We have the following pipe ranks: = Principal 8', Octave 4', Fifteenth 2', Harmonic Flute 8' with extensions = Flute 4', Flute 2', Mixture II. We are currently having a Trompette en = Chamade being built for the back of our rather large sanctuary under a = beautiful stained glass window.The sound is OUTSTANDING. The pipes and = digital are seamless in sound. I have always said I would NEVER have an = electronic instrument in my church. Well , with the economy so bad and = prices so high for ALL pipe instruments, we went with the best we could = afford. Thanks again.<BR> <BR> Sincerely,<BR> <BR> Daniel</FONT></HTML>   --part1_14f.11e32098.2a7db8e7_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Prices of New Organs From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:54:56 EDT     --part1_165.11315679.2a7db940_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hey Jon,   THANKS!! Daniel   --part1_165.11315679.2a7db940_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Hey&nbsp; Jon,<BR> <BR> THANKS!!&nbsp;&nbsp; Daniel</FONT></HTML>   --part1_165.11315679.2a7db940_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@attbi.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 19:22:21 -0400   The elimitation of pipes is a stated goal. What happened at Chicago Stadium? Or, do you know?   sorry for starting this, Stan     Icedad@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Lynn, > > Thank you for the nice post in defense of digital instruments. We > could not have afforded to put $1.4 million into a full pipe instrument. = We > have just installed a beautiful Custom 3 manual 80 stop Allen = Renaissance > organ in our acoustically live large sanctuary that seats well over = 1,200 > people. We have a MAGNIFICENT combination pipe/digital instrument. We = have > the following pipe ranks: Principal 8', Octave 4', Fifteenth 2', = Harmonic > Flute 8' with extensions Flute 4', Flute 2', Mixture II. We are = currently > having a Trompette en Chamade being built for the back of our rather = large > sanctuary under a beautiful stained glass window.The sound is = OUTSTANDING. > The pipes and digital are seamless in sound. I have always said I would > NEVER have an electronic instrument in my church. Well , with the = economy so > bad and prices so high for ALL pipe instruments, we went with the best = we > could afford. Thanks again. > > Sincerely, > > Daniel    
(back) Subject: Re: Dr. Jonathan Hall recital today at noon From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 20:25:42 EDT     --part1_159.11f73eac.2a7dce86_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   If you think it is hot in New York, you should be in Oklahoma, where I am now. It is 98 degrees with about 98 percent humidity. It did not seem "that" hot to me in New York. Dr. Hall did present a wonderful concert, = of which I enjoyed very much. I also enjoyed the flights and flights of = stairs, but declined to climb the ladders. It was great seeing Alan again and meeting the other members of the chat. ChicalEEE.   --part1_159.11f73eac.2a7dce86_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>If you think it is hot = in New York, you should be in Oklahoma, where I am now. &nbsp;It is 98 = degrees with about 98 percent humidity. &nbsp;It did not seem "that" hot = to me in New York. &nbsp;Dr. Hall did present a wonderful concert, of = which I enjoyed very much. &nbsp;I also enjoyed the flights and flights of = stairs, but declined to climb the ladders. &nbsp;It was great seeing Alan = again and meeting the other members of the chat. = &nbsp;ChicalEEE.</FONT></HTML>   --part1_159.11f73eac.2a7dce86_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Cost of new pipe organs From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:41:16 -0400   Anybody want a magnificent three-manual Roosevelt, including a rare = Pedal Trombone? How about an E.M. Skinner? Have you asked a real organbuilder lately about the great pipe organs = available, in mint condition? Have you REALLY enquired about the investment in a new pipe organ, or = are you just repeating gossip to yourself because one-stop shopping for a = stock model avoids conflict, confrontation, and ruffling feathers? Is it = easier to settle for something than taking a stand for something? Too much time, too many meetings, too much politicking? Might as well = just give up...  
(back) Subject: 30 Grand per rank? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 21:46:59 -0400   Here we go again.   Pipe organs are NOT priced at $30,000 per rank, let alone $30,000 per = stop, unless we are talking about 32' extensions.   That kind of pricing is inexcusable. So is believing it. So is paying it.  
(back) Subject: Pipe Organs From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:56:10 -0500   Pipe organs are available and affordable! The real problem is lack of leadership!! Organists who are easily satisfied with an electronic- Ministers and board members who take the decision out of the people's hands: In almost every situation I have been involved with; if the pipe organ project is presented to the people it will be funded! There are still people with a lot of money out there, and pipe organs have always been popular gifts. THE PROBLEM IS LEADERSHIP Roy Redman    
(back) Subject: prices, etc. From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:50:22 -0500   Just who started these awful rumors about the high prices of pipe organs? I bet some Rodgers sales guy did it... Roy Redman and Seb Gluck have pretty well condensed a lot of the problem.   jon bertschinger  
(back) Subject: Re: 30 Grand per rank? From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:14:52 EDT   In a message dated 8/3/02 9:47:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = TubaMagna@aol.com writes:   << Here we go again. Pipe organs are NOT priced at $30,000 per rank, let alone $30,000 per = stop, unless we are talking about 32' extensions. >>   OK, the main reason I'm on this list is that my congregation is going = through the process of getting a new/rebuilt/pre-owned/etc. organ. At first we = had thought of a combination pipe/digital, but it looks like now it will be mostly pipe, possibly with a digital 32' voice (or two). Could those of = you who have gotten new pipe organ in the past couple of years possibly give a =   price for the organ, and the number of ranks, so the novices amoung us = could get an "estimate" of the "AVERAGE" price of a rank.   Thanx,   Richard  
(back) Subject: Re: Cost of new pipe organs From: "Stanley Lowkis" <nstarfil@attbi.com> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 22:19:33 -0400   mea culpa, mea culpa! The electronics are semi-sucessful - no pipes, but who cares?   I recently received a CD with a 'free' CD of a very expensive digital organ. It was awful! And the people taking money for these things should be ashamed of = themselves.   LISTEN! They sound Like a Pale Digital Imitation of a Pipe Organ.   like my email is not a handwritten note..   ...and the Pipe Organs displaced by these Phoneys is the tragedy of the Organ World.   Stan   "Never Give Up",Seb.   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > > Anybody want a magnificent three-manual Roosevelt, including a rare = Pedal Trombone? > How about an E.M. Skinner? > Have you asked a real organbuilder lately about the great pipe organs = available, in mint condition? > Have you REALLY enquired about the investment in a new pipe organ, or = are you just repeating gossip to yourself because one-stop shopping for a = stock model avoids conflict, confrontation, and ruffling feathers? Is it = easier to settle for something than taking a stand for something? > Too much time, too many meetings, too much politicking? Might as = well just give up...    
(back) Subject: Cost of pipe organ From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:00:55 -0500   Let's not forget that used pipe organs can be very affordable--just ask = John Bishop at Organ Clearing House. I'm also aware of at least three historic tracker organs, all rebuilt within the last twenty years that went for a couple of thousand dollars apiece, and I knew of a lovely 7-rank Moller = unit organ that could have been purchased for $7,000.   My Moller Artiste cost me about $3,000 including getting it here from 1200 miles away! Yes, it's a small (3 rank) organ of not very distinguished heritage, and it couldn't fill a large space, but soundwise it will run circles around most of the smaller electronics I've heard in the past five years--for a whole lot less money.   Frankly, I think people are fooling themselves or just don't know if they think they can't afford a pipe organ when they spend MORE than that on an electronic!   Dennis Steckley "For I am possessed of a cat, surpassing in beauty, from whom I take occasion to bless Almighty God."    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:27:12 EDT     --part1_ce.2a6fe2e9.2a7deb00_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/3/02 6:20:34 AM Atlantic Daylight Time, l2nn@juno.com =   writes: > New electronic organs are being quoted and bought at churches which > cannot afford a new pipe organ. I don't think Bach would have turned > down a 4 manual Renaissance Allen. I know most organists look down on > digitals but I think they are the wave of the future. >   I really don't want to be unkind, but I think it's terribly presumptuous = to opine on what Bach "might have done." I certainly no Bach, but it would =   really pop my coffin if someone said that of me after I had passed on and = was unable to defend myself.   Electroids may very well be the wave of the future, but, as a wave will = pass by, hit the shore, and dissipate. If progress continues, technology with render these things obsolete and they will then be replaced by whatever is =   riding on the next "wave."   Those things which are wholly artistic and beautiful, not to mention ecologically sound, will survive and continue. It's interesting that several action styles were once the "wave of the future" and now people = are seeing the fallacy of them and are returning to traditional methods. Progress has a way of eliminating itself in some instances, and just improving itself in others. A good example of this is direct electric action which has survived other attempts at improvement, while at the same =   time being, itself, improved.     Bruce in the Muttestery HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW NEW... please visit   with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_ce.2a6fe2e9.2a7deb00_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 8/3/02 6:20:34 AM Atlantic = Daylight Time, l2nn@juno.com writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">New electronic = organs are being quoted and bought at churches which<BR> cannot afford a new pipe organ.&nbsp; I don't think Bach would have = turned<BR> down a 4 manual Renaissance Allen.&nbsp; I know most organists look down = on<BR> digitals but I think they are the wave of the future.<BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> I really don't want to be unkind, but I think it's terribly presumptuous = to opine on what&nbsp; Bach "might have done."&nbsp;&nbsp; I certainly no = Bach, but it would really pop my coffin if someone said that of me after I = had passed on and was unable to defend myself.&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> <BR> Electroids may very well be the wave of the future, but, as a wave will = pass by, hit the shore, and dissipate.&nbsp; If progress continues, = technology with render these things obsolete and they will then be = replaced by whatever is riding on the next "wave."&nbsp; <BR> <BR> Those things which are wholly artistic and beautiful, not to mention = ecologically sound, will survive and continue.&nbsp;&nbsp; It's = interesting that several action styles were once the "wave of the future" = and now people are seeing the fallacy of them and are returning to = traditional methods.&nbsp;&nbsp; Progress has a way of eliminating itself = in some instances, and just improving itself in others.&nbsp;&nbsp; A good = example of this is direct electric action which has survived other = attempts at improvement, while at the same time being, itself, = improved.<BR> <BR> <BR> Bruce in the Muttestery&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#ff0080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW = NEW... please visit</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR> <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_ce.2a6fe2e9.2a7deb00_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Cost of new pipe organs From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:29:48 EDT     --part1_94.2a534f42.2a7deb9c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/3/02 7:30:29 AM Atlantic Daylight Time, dclscott@skyenet.net writes: > My church is planning to rebuild the sanctuary within the next > few years, and it had just occured to me that I should have figures like > this in mind, just in case, though I think they're unlikely to opt for > pipes.   And, as long as organists are willing to "accept the inevitable" without presenting an educated and informed justification for a pipe organ, uneducated committee members will continue to make poorly conceived = decisions and future organists will be saddled with electroids until they themselves =   prove that they are not equal to pipe organs either musically or fiscally.   Bruce in the Muttestery HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW NEW... please visit   with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_94.2a534f42.2a7deb9c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 8/3/02 7:30:29 AM Atlantic = Daylight Time, dclscott@skyenet.net writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My church is = planning to rebuild the sanctuary within the next<BR> few years, and it had just occured to me that I should have figures = like<BR> this in mind, just in case, though I think they're unlikely to opt for<BR> pipes. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> And, as long as organists are willing to "accept the inevitable" without = presenting an educated and informed justification for a pipe organ, = uneducated committee members will continue to make poorly conceived = decisions and future organists will be saddled with electroids until they = themselves prove that they are not equal to pipe organs either musically = or fiscally.<BR> <BR> Bruce in the Muttestery&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#ff0080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW = NEW... please visit</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR> <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_94.2a534f42.2a7deb9c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:35:05 EDT   In a message dated 8/3/02 9:48:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rredman@imagin.net writes:   << THE PROBLEM IS LEADERSHIP >> The problem is also builders who foist totally inappropriate instruments = on unsuspecting congregations who are then stuck with them for a number of years. And in many cases the organist involved either leaves before the = organ is installed or very soon thereafter.   Fortunately there are also those who take pains to create an instrument = that is totally appropriate for the church's worship needs and the room and is = a musical instrument of integrity. I had the good fortune to play one such recent instrument in the Washington area for a few weeks earlier this = summer. The congregation got a fine organ for the money, it works beautifully in = the room, you can play lots of literature on it, and it was funded by lots of very modest donations. The congregation is very proud of it, and = rightfully so. But that seems to be more the exception than the rule -- at least in = my (admittedly limited) experience.  
(back) Subject: Re: Margo's comments From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:39:20 EDT     --part1_1b8.44132d7.2a7dedd8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/3/02 5:56:19 PM Atlantic Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: > Raymond H. "Bud" Clark, BMus   Oh geez, "bud".... your SUTHRUN is showing!!! ;-)   Bruce F. "Bubba" Cornely   Bruce in the Muttestery HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW NEW... please visit   with the Baskerbeagles at <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502 .... need extra money??? visit http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053 enjoy shopping?? visit www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg   --part1_1b8.44132d7.2a7dedd8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 8/3/02 5:56:19 PM Atlantic = Daylight Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes: <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Raymond H. "Bud" = Clark, BMus</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> Oh geez, "bud".... your SUTHRUN is showing!!!&nbsp; ;-)<BR> <BR> Bruce F. "Bubba" Cornely<BR> <BR> Bruce in the Muttestery&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#ff0080" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B>HOWLING ACRES IS NEW NEW = NEW... please visit</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B><BR> <BR> with the Baskerbeagles at&nbsp; <A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/brucon502">HowlingAcres</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://members.tripod.com/brucon502<BR> ....&nbsp; need extra money???&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp;&nbsp; = http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053<BR> enjoy shopping??&nbsp;&nbsp; visit&nbsp; www.freestoreclub.com/go/BDawg = <BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_1b8.44132d7.2a7dedd8_boundary--