PipeChat Digest #3016 - Tuesday, August 6, 2002
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: What is average cost per rk average organ?
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Great antique Pipe organ
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: Organ Service; pipe and electronic
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: Cost of used instruments
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: Cost of used instruments
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Pipes vs. Electroids
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
ALL READ IMMEDIATELY!!!
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: Great antique Pipe organ
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@earthlink.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Great antique Pipe organ
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: ALL READ IMMEDIATELY!!!
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: Great antique Pipe organ
  by "Mack" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
Re: Great antique Pipe organ(GOOD EAR)
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:01:25 -0500   On 8/5/02 4:43 PM, Ross & Lynda Wards wrote:   > The answer to this is that the faults I listed are basic design faults = in > the Allen and cannot be changed, so the calling of any kind of = serviceman > would be a waste of time.   Ross, Romantic Tuning is not a design fault - it is a feature which you may = choose to use or not use as the spirit moves you. As far as tuning goes, the = Allen is ALWAYS in tune, its design does not allow it to go out of tune no = matter what may happen, its tuning is controlled by unchanging digital numbers. Pipe organs are NEVER in tune, arguably part of their charm.   The fact that Allens don't need much service is a good thing. And while I can appreciate that you may not like digital sound, the list of "basic design faults" you listed indicate your indifference to learning how to = get the best out of the Allen by understanding how the instrument works and = the options available to you, not the incompetence of Allen engineers.   TTFN, Russ Greene    
(back) Subject: Re: What is average cost per rk average organ? From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:08:42 -0400   It is unfair to ask any builder to respond to this question, let alone a = list of people who have most likely not had to go through the calculations = of designing and proposing a pipe organ for a client.   There is no average.   Smaller pipe organs cost more per rank than larger ones. Are you talking about a 1-1/3' Larigot or a 16' Gamba?   If you are planning a serious organ project, have several builders look at = the building, talk to you about your music program, and then start taking = bids. Hear their instruments, speak to their references, ignore the rumor = mill, and get yourself a good instrument.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: Great antique Pipe organ From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:11:02 -0500   On 8/5/02 2:52 PM, First Christian Church of Casey, IL wrote:   > No, Russ. Look again--he specifically says compare to a great "antique = pipe > organ," not a new one! BTW, there are several great antique ones at = Organ > Clearing House right now!   Most antique pipe organs are not great, just old. Exactly as most antique violins are not great, just old.   Great antique violins command a large price; not-great old violins are cheap.   Great antique pipe organs command a large price (you have to include installation, etc. remember); not-great, even lousy old pipe organs = command pretty much the same large price as the great ones.   And the crux of the problem for most congregations - you can't tell which = is which until you spend all the money!   TTFN, Russ Greene    
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Service; pipe and electronic From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:27:11 -0500   On 8/5/02 6:01 PM, TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > Nobody ever purchased a pipe organ because it was easier to care for. > They chose a pipe organ for a myriad of other reasons.   Absolutely true Sebastian. What riles me is trying to sell the pipe organ = on false pretenses...   We keep hearing "It's less expensive in the long run; it doesn't require = any more service; it doesn't need any more tuning; it will last forever."   All of these statements are quite simply false. In every one of these = areas, the digital wins hands down (only questionable one - digital (probably, = but the jury's still out you know) doesn't last as long but it's cheaper to = buy a new digital than rebuild the everlasting pipe organ if of any kind of equivalent size).   Sell pipe organs to church committees based on their beauty, their purity = of tone, their magnificence, their traditional and historical appeal, etc. = not by trying to convince people of the falsity that pipes can beat digitals = in the areas where the digitals are strongest.   Cheers, Russ    
(back) Subject: Re: Cost of used instruments From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:32:28 -0500   On 8/5/02 6:15 PM, TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > Why is it that everybody bemoans the cost of new instruments, yet = refuses to > purchase and restore magnificent antiques for a fraction of the cost?   It is exceedingly difficult to convince purchasers that they are in fact getting a magnificent antique rather than just an old organ. It is really difficult to convince purchasers about what a bargain old organs are once they look past the purchase price (which is usually low) to the cost of shipping, renovation, rebuilding, installing, revoicing and finishing = which for all but the smallest organs can be many times the purchase price.   Cheers, Russ    
(back) Subject: Re: Cost of used instruments From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 17:39:04 -0500   On 8/5/02 7:34 PM, M Fox wrote:   > If that figure seems suspect, it's because it is. According to figures = from > the Congressional Joint Committee on taxation, the 1950 rate was 17.4% = on > income up to $4,000 and the maximum rate was 91% on income over = $400,000. In > 1951 the minimum rate went up to 20.4%. And yes, during WWII, minimum = rates > went from 10% to 19% to 23%. > > Look elsewhere for organ theft.   Can't speak for the U.S., but Ron's point certainly struck a chord in = Canada where the average person spends over half a year's wages every year on the various levels of taxation, a huge increase from the first half of the century.   Russ    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:17:02 +1200   Not so, Russ. As I have already said, I experiment with every kind of instrument far more than any organist I know, and that includes on reed organs and electronics. The design faults are simply that, design fault. You'll just have to take my word for it that I do the very best in every possible way that I can whenever I play for any service anywhere. To do = any less would be churlish, immature and reprehensible, to say the very least.   Don't tell me this Allen is always in tune. It isn't. The mutations are definitely not in tune, especially towards the top. When I hear beats when they are not supposed to be any, that to me says that something is out of tune. When I find bad gaps in ther specification, such as there being not one Principal-toned stop (apart from the Mixture) on the Swell of about 14 stops, that to me is a basic design fault. Any Romantic design that size would have had at least 8 & 4 diapasons on the Swell. When I see = all-plastic keys with gaps so wide between them that you can see the pedalboard below them, that is a use of badly-designed keys. When I find odd combinations = of enclosed and enclosed ranks over both manuals and the pedals, I do indeed find it an odd instrument. When I need to push a stopkey on to turn something off, that is a design fault. When I see over 40 thumb pistons on = a 2-manual organ, that is ridiculous excess. Etc.etc.etc. When I couple = Swell and Great and find very definite beats that shouldn't be there, that is a design fault.   Believe me, I'm just as critical of bad work done by pipe organ builders. Even if an instrument is small, it must be built to a good standard, whetever the instrument. I've recently had occasion to criticise a pipe organ builder for wanting to put 10 adjustable thumb pistons into their rebuild of a 3rk unit pipe organ from the 1960s, in a church that seats about 100 and has a congregation of about 30. No recitals there, no choir, just a few voluntaries and accompoanying hymns. All those pistons, silly nonsense.   My ears do not deceive me. If something beats, it's out-of-tune. When I demonstrated this to the parish's choirmaster, his comment was, "We'll = have to get that tuned." I told him you couldn't do so. Many years ago, people told me Hammond drawbar thingies were always in tune, too. They weren't, = as every off-unison drawbar was taken from the unison tones. Nothing could be done about that, either. Nor about the lies told that you could create a "chorus": the best you could do was create a synthetic 8ft, all the = drawbars producing only sine waves.   If someone could send me CDs or tapes of combo. (pipe and digital) instruments, and of these newer Allens, I'd be delighted to listen most carefully indeed, being aware that CDs are no comparison with listening in the building itself.   An unrepentant Ross.     Ross, Romantic Tuning is not a design fault - it is a feature which you may = choose to use or not use as the spirit moves you. As far as tuning goes, the = Allen is ALWAYS in tune, its design does not allow it to go out of tune no = matter what may happen, its tuning is controlled by unchanging digital numbers. Pipe organs are NEVER in tune, arguably part of their charm.   The fact that Allens don't need much service is a good thing. And while I can appreciate that you may not like digital sound, the list of "basic design faults" you listed indicate your indifference to learning how to = get the best out of the Allen by understanding how the instrument works and = the options available to you, not the incompetence of Allen engineers.   TTFN, Russ Greene     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Pipes vs. Electroids From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:57:14 -0500   Well, for one thing, Dennis, some of enjoy the bantering back and forth. The issues are serious, but most of us can be good-natured about it. It = is possible to disagree agreeably, after all. Clearly, a newer, high quality electronic will not generate the annual maintenance costs of a even a high quality new pipe organ.   And we're different people with different tastes and values. Some have = said they prefer a 3M digital to a smaller pipe instrument. So be it. If they prefer it, they prefer it. I would rather have one of those sweet 1 = manual Erbens on the market now for the church I serve (as pastor, not organist) than the absolutely awful electronic we have--but it's 30 years old and wasn't a top brand even then. A small one manual obviously involves compromises, but I'll bet one properly scaled and designed would suit at least 80% of all churches' service playing needs (not wants). I'm = fortunate to have a 3 rank, 2M Moeller Artiste at home that I am very happy with. There is no way I could afford an electronic instrument with sound quality approaching the Artiste (which, we all know, was a budget instrument to begin with, and not known for distinguished voicing) for what I have invested.   Dennis Steckley "For I am possessed of a cat, surpassing in beauty, from whom I take occasion to bless Almighty God." ----- Original Message ----- = -------------------------------------------------------------- --------   Subject: The Never-Ending Story From: "Dennis Goward" <dlgoward@qwest.net> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 12:21:22 -0700   Pipes vs Digital --Will it never end?   Seems like this discussion pops up more regularly than a speedtrap outside = a small Arizona town, and nothing different ever gets said. No one is going to change anyone else's mind, and when you come right down to it, why try? So, why not just agree to disagree and move on?      
(back) Subject: ALL READ IMMEDIATELY!!! From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:59:16 -0500   STOP!   I guess there is a full moon or something in the air / water that has set everyone off on this topic of Pipes vs digitals. It keeps coming around every few months and we all hear the same arguments from both sides and it doesn't change anyone's mind. So let's all agree to disagree and move onward.   Please, let's move on to a different topic and leave this one alone for = awhile.   Happy PipeChatting   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Great antique Pipe organ From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:28:09 +1200   I believe you can tell the difference between good and bad old organs, = even if fully dismantled. Get someone with a good ear who knows pipes well. = Visit the organ and get your Good Ear to look very carefully at the pipes, mouth blow some of them, (don't mouth blow the reeds, though, make a wee thingie for that), look closely at the design of the chests. A Good Ear who knows pipes can tell you a very great deal after just a half hour of doing this stuff. Your Good Ear can look at the scaling of the pipes, the quality of the material used, the kind of pressure the pipe will stand in, the pipe's speech characteristics; he will look at the relative mough width, and its height, and possible bevels of languids and lips, he will check the = quality of the soldering, notice what condition the cone-tuning or tuning-slide = bits are in, check the feet for sag or mis-shaping of the pipe toe, look at the size of the toe hole, look at the size of the windway, see what nicks = there are (if any), and so on and so on. The chest design will give you a fair clue as to the quality of pipe speech and blend, in addition. The = materials the chest is made of will give you a clue as to the quality of unseen = inner parts of the organ. And you can check for bleed holes, whether pipes have been re-racked ever (indicating change of specification), etc.etc.etc. = Most Good Ears are more than happy to do this sort of examination, and it'll be well worth the $50 fee, if one is even charged at all. Ross   >And the crux of the problem for most congregations - you can't tell which >is >which until you spend all the money!        
(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:00:09 -0700   Hello, Ross.   I must say I do immensely enjoy your posts... I don't always agree with = you, but I enjoy and learn <grin>   I play a pretty successful pipe/digital combo instrument, and am mostly happy with what sounds come out of it. _I_ can usually tell when the digits are playing, but then I know what the organ sounded like before they were added, so I have an unfair advantage <grin>   I'm sure with your ears you could tell as well, but I'd be happy to either point you to a spot you can d/l a mp3 file of the organ, or send you a CD I've made - I'd not expect you to have anything but criticism for the = sound, but at least you'd get to hear another "brand", and that was voiced decently.   Grins,   Jonathan   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Ross & Lynda Wards > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:17 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 > > > Not so, Russ. As I have already said, I experiment with every kind of > instrument far more than any organist I know, and that > includes on reed > organs and electronics. The design faults are simply that, > design fault. > You'll just have to take my word for it that I do the very > best in every > possible way that I can whenever I play for any service > anywhere. To do any > less would be churlish, immature and reprehensible, to say > the very least. > > Don't tell me this Allen is always in tune. It isn't. The > mutations are > definitely not in tune, especially towards the top. When I > hear beats when > they are not supposed to be any, that to me says that > something is out of > tune. When I find bad gaps in ther specification, such as > there being not > one Principal-toned stop (apart from the Mixture) on the > Swell of about 14 > stops, that to me is a basic design fault. Any Romantic > design that size > would have had at least 8 & 4 diapasons on the Swell. When I > see all-plastic > keys with gaps so wide between them that you can see the > pedalboard below > them, that is a use of badly-designed keys. When I find odd > combinations of > enclosed and enclosed ranks over both manuals and the pedals, > I do indeed > find it an odd instrument. When I need to push a stopkey on to turn > something off, that is a design fault. When I see over 40 > thumb pistons on a > 2-manual organ, that is ridiculous excess. Etc.etc.etc. When > I couple Swell > and Great and find very definite beats that shouldn't be > there, that is a > design fault. > > Believe me, I'm just as critical of bad work done by pipe > organ builders. > Even if an instrument is small, it must be built to a good standard, > whetever the instrument. I've recently had occasion to > criticise a pipe > organ builder for wanting to put 10 adjustable thumb pistons > into their > rebuild of a 3rk unit pipe organ from the 1960s, in a church > that seats > about 100 and has a congregation of about 30. No recitals > there, no choir, > just a few voluntaries and accompoanying hymns. All those > pistons, silly > nonsense. > > My ears do not deceive me. If something beats, it's > out-of-tune. When I > demonstrated this to the parish's choirmaster, his comment > was, "We'll have > to get that tuned." I told him you couldn't do so. Many > years ago, people > told me Hammond drawbar thingies were always in tune, too. > They weren't, as > every off-unison drawbar was taken from the unison tones. > Nothing could be > done about that, either. Nor about the lies told that you > could create a > "chorus": the best you could do was create a synthetic 8ft, > all the drawbars > producing only sine waves. > > If someone could send me CDs or tapes of combo. (pipe and digital) > instruments, and of these newer Allens, I'd be delighted to > listen most > carefully indeed, being aware that CDs are no comparison with > listening in > the building itself. > > An unrepentant > Ross. > > > Ross, > Romantic Tuning is not a design fault - it is a feature which > you may choose > to use or not use as the spirit moves you. As far as tuning > goes, the Allen > is ALWAYS in tune, its design does not allow it to go out of > tune no matter > what may happen, its tuning is controlled by unchanging > digital numbers. > Pipe organs are NEVER in tune, arguably part of their charm. > > The fact that Allens don't need much service is a good thing. > And while I > can appreciate that you may not like digital sound, the list of "basic > design faults" you listed indicate your indifference to > learning how to get > the best out of the Allen by understanding how the instrument > works and the > options available to you, not the incompetence of Allen engineers. > > TTFN, > Russ Greene > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 07/24/2002 >   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 07/24/2002      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 19:10:08 EDT   Dear Russ:   Dr. Ross has not said that the organs he refers to are digital. I have a feeling that he may be refering to analog organs going right back to the vacuum tube models. From his descriptions, Anglican churches in NZ don't spend a lot of money on their organs if they have them at all. We don't know whether the name *llen went on the console in the 1940's or yesterday. The pipe organs that are extant and used are cobbled together affairs for the most part. It may also mean that organ music is not a very high priority in these little backwoods churches as we might think or imagine, nor is maintainence readily and immediately available. City churches may fair far better all around where money is more prevalent. At least those are my thoughts for now. It's difficult to diagnose a problem when relyable information is not = really forth coming. (model numbers, year made)   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: Great antique Pipe organ From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:28:08 -0500     your notes about organs are good, except. No one but a builder can determine if chest construcion is good. For that matter, what is "good chest construction"? The only way to see what a chest is like is to open it up, and look inside. Also, not all chests that look alike are equal.   <G>   jon bertschinger  
(back) Subject: Re: ALL READ IMMEDIATELY!!! From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:29:51 -0500   Gee.....but what is the name of this list? PIPE chat...LOL   sometimes tomatos and melons are found in the strangest places. <G>     David: have you done anything with the McManus Console?     jon bertschinger  
(back) Subject: Re: Great antique Pipe organ From: "Mack" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:41:07 -0400     OK Russ,   Enough is enough, sell your allens somewhere else you are continuing a thread that is supposed to be dropped. You will NEVER convince anyone that a substitute is REAL maybe you have deluded yourself or are totally tone deaf.   DROP it    
(back) Subject: Re: Great antique Pipe organ(GOOD EAR) From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:24:02 EDT   Dear Ross:   Take good ear with you to look at an already dismantled organ to inspect it. Now I've really heard it all. If someone were asking $60,000. for this dismantled organ I'd be making an offer less a couple of zeros. If I can't inspect an organ in playing condition, and play it myself, I'm inclined to say thanks very much, but I'm simply not interested. Oh! by the way I'll take it off your hands for $600. This is a pig in a poke. No telling how long it's been in storage, how many mice have taken up residence, or how badly the wooden pipes and chests have been eaten by termites.   The Whitney Theatre organ of some note was in storage for 20 years. They wanted $70,000 When push came to shove, it was water damaged, termite ridden, and a sizeable rat and mice population had taken over. This valuable organ was improperly placed in a shed with a leaky roof. It went to the dump. Now if it was sold right away, and people had been realistic about it's worth, this great organ would still be playing and = being enjoyed. This was a big organ. Sorrifully in the end was thrown out as = junk.   The conservators of redundant organs in storage must be made to realize that a low offer is a good offer, and not a money making opportunity, but a business deal. These are organs housed in barns and hay lofts and not in central locations like a big Home Depot installation where you can see them or even look at a pipe or two. In the UK, the organs are left in = the redundant churches, set up and playing, which is a much better deal. At least you know for sure before paying hard cash what you are getting yourself into.   GOOD EAR indeed,   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3000 - 08/03/02 From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:58:03 +1200   Ron & Russ,   The Allens in this parish were bought absolutely new from the NZ agent/supplier less than 10 years ago, i.e. in the 1990s, and are most certainly not vacuum tube models.   There are many organs that have been shoved around and rebuilt, it is = true, but there are also many complete instruments here. But with a total NZ population of under 4,000,000, no one could expect the big instruments available overseas, either new or old. Our only very large parishes of any denomination either have organs already, or don't want one, preferring = great gobs of amplified guitars and so on.   It is certainly true that churches are not very big and have neither the money nor the inclination to spend up on large instruments, nor even new ones these days, sadly. It is also true that organ music is a very very = low priority in most churches of all denominations, again sadly. Maintenance = is, however, readily available anywhere in the land.   Organists' Association memberships are also down, well down, as are = numbers of people taking lessons of any kind. The really clever few want to go overseas as there are only as very tiny handful of fulltime positions in = NZ. Other folk don't want to learn the organ, not least because they have = never learned the piano: the percentage of teenagers learning the piano these = days is way way way smaller than it was in my day many years ago. From what I read of overseas experience, this is pretty much the same everywhere.   Regards, Ross     >Dear Russ: > >Dr. Ross has not said that the organs he refers to are digital. I have >a feeling that he may be refering to analog organs going right back >to the vacuum tube models. From his descriptions, Anglican >churches in NZ don't spend a lot of money on their organs if they >have them at all. We don't know whether the name *llen went on the >console in the 1940's or yesterday. The pipe organs that are extant >and used are cobbled together affairs for the most part. It may also mean >that organ music is not a very high priority in these little backwoods >churches as we might think or imagine, nor is maintainence readily >and immediately available. City churches may fair far better all around >where money is more prevalent. At least those are my thoughts for now. >It's difficult to diagnose a problem when relyable information is not really >forth coming. (model numbers, year made) > >Ron Severin