PipeChat Digest #3019 - Wednesday, August 7, 2002
 
digital organ help
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: "Shot" speakers
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU>
RE: What is average cost per rk average organ?
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
RE: Cost of used instruments
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Gravissima
  by "David Smit" <DavidS@astrolabegroup.com>
RE: Gravissima
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: What is average cost per rk average organ?
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
RE: PipeChat Digest #3017 - 08/07/02
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
the pricing of pipe organs
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #3017 - 08/07/02
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
bringing a Wurlitzer reed organ to A=3D440
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: the pricing of pipe organs
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
Re: What is average cost per rk average organ?
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
RE: What is average cost per rk average organ?
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
We need a new topic: How about Drawknob layout??? (X-Posted)
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Bringing a Wurlitzer reed organ to A=3D440
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: 64' Vox Gravissima
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: the pricing of pipe organs
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
 

(back) Subject: digital organ help From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:04:48 -0400   Hi, Is anyone in the audience familiar with Johannus organs and how they function? For that matter would someone who is VERY knowledgeable about digital organs please contact me off list. I have a very serious "HELP!" question to ask. I'd appreciate your help. It is important that you understand that I only know that you depress a button and lights go on and = I can then play the organ. That is the extent of my knowledge about these things and I'm seeking someone who could actually build one of these, or nearly build one, if s/he wanted to. In other words I need someone who understands fully how digitals operate. Thank you, Robert Bernardino Colasacco    
(back) Subject: Re: "Shot" speakers From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@VASSAR.EDU> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 09:06:48 -0700   >My Allen dealer does not insist on, but recommends Allen speakers every >10-15 years.   You mean REPLACE them? you've got to be kidding. What "wears" out?   John V  
(back) Subject: RE: What is average cost per rk average organ? From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:08:29 -0400   I was going to be silly and ask the price of a 64' Gravissima but in a = more serious vein, St. Patrick's Cathedral, NYC has, in fact, or had, a 64' Gravissima. What is that? I know I've seen maybe one or two other organs than have 64' ranks but don't remember which. But specifically, does = anyone know what that stop is on St. Patrick's organ, as it were. Robert Bernardino Colasacco =3D=3D=3D=3D   It is unfair to ask any builder to respond to this question, let alone a list of people who have most likely not had to go through the calculations of designing and proposing a pipe organ for a client.   There is no average.   Smaller pipe organs cost more per rank than larger ones. Are you talking about a 1-1/3' Larigot or a 16' Gamba?    
(back) Subject: RE: Cost of used instruments From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:17:05 -0400   This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E14.B9ECD810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   Well, I guess the ordinary worker therefore, wouldn't be able to purchase = a pipe organ. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Ahrens [mailto:Ray_Ahrens@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:03 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Cost of used instruments     What in God's, Allah's, Buddah's, etc name does the following have to do with organs? Topicality please!   ----- Original Message ----- From: RonSeverin@aol.com Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:20 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Cost of used instruments Dear Michael:   Now you're quoting the rich. No ordinary worker made any where near $4,000 during tha era. It was the "RICH"! The average worker brought home $18.00 a week less than $1,000 a year. You must be from a rich family. Those were depression and post depression times. The average Joe didn't pay more than 1 1/2% because he didn't make that much. My first teaching job in 1967 paid $3,300 per year, but a = family of four could live on $20.00 per week on food. Monthly rent on a one       ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E14.B9ECD810 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1">     <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt = verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV><SPAN class=3D347251613-07082002><FONT face=3D"Footlight MT Light" color=3D#800000 size=3D3>Well, I guess the ordinary worker therefore, = wouldn't be able to purchase a pipe organ.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Ray Ahrens [mailto:Ray_Ahrens@msn.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:03 =   PM<BR><B>To:</B> PipeChat<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cost of used instruments<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>What in God's, Allah's, Buddah's, etc name does the following have to = do with organs?&nbsp; Topicality please!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: = black"><B>From:</B> RonSeverin@aol.com</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 05, 2002 = 8:20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> pipechat@pipechat.org</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cost of used instruments</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>Dear Michael:<BR><BR>Now you're quoting the rich. No = ordinary worker made any where<BR>near $4,000 during tha era. It was the "RICH"! = The average worker<BR>brought home $18.00 a week less than $1,000 a year. = You must be<BR>from a rich family. Those were depression and post depression times.<BR>The average Joe didn't pay more than 1 1/2% because he didn't make<BR>that much. My first teaching job in 1967 paid $3,300 per year, = but a family<BR>of four could live on $20.00 per week on food. Monthly rent on = a one<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E14.B9ECD810--  
(back) Subject: Gravissima From: "David Smit" <DavidS@astrolabegroup.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:16:58 +0200   Hi,   Usually an acoustic stop derived from the 32'. They are rare. There are maybe three organs in the world with the real thing as far as reeds go(one of them is Sydney Town Hall). I cannot think of a flue 64' offhand at all, although I did read about one   http://www.ondamar.demon.co.uk/lists/64.htm   will give you all you need to know...     D       -----Original Message----- From: COLASACCO, ROBERT [mailto:RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:08 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: What is average cost per rk average organ?     I was going to be silly and ask the price of a 64' Gravissima but in a = more serious vein, St. Patrick's Cathedral, NYC has, in fact, or had, a 64' Gravissima. What is that? I know I've seen maybe one or two other organs than have 64' ranks but don't remember which. But specifically, does = anyone know what that stop is on St. Patrick's organ, as it were. Robert Bernardino Colasacco =3D=3D=3D=3D    
(back) Subject: RE: Gravissima From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:45:07 -0400   Thank you so much. Of the many times I heard Courbois make the ol'Kilgen sing I often wondered if those tones that I couldn't hear but felt within depths of my body I didn't know existed, and which made the entire = building rumble gently like Jell-o, were due to his using the 64' Gravissima. = Usually this would be at the communion between the choir's motet and the post-communion chant (this was just before Vatican II--early 60s-- and services were strictly Gregorian and in latin there) while the long line = of communicants were awaiting their turn to receive he would improvise on = soft string tones and use this particularly soft pedal flutes deep-toned including this "rumbling" sensation. Someitmes as soft as the rumble was = it was forte and you felt the ceiling might just cave in. Awesome was he. Ah, never since. RBC   -=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Usually an acoustic stop derived from the 32'. They are rare.   http://www.ondamar.demon.co.uk/lists/64.htm   will give you all you need to know...     D        
(back) Subject: Re: What is average cost per rk average organ? From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:57:06 -0400   Dear Robert, Atlantic City has 64' stops. Don;t remember off the top of my head = the stop designation. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: RE: What is average cost per rk average organ?     > I was going to be silly and ask the price of a 64' Gravissima but in a more > serious vein, St. Patrick's Cathedral, NYC has, in fact, or had, a 64' > Gravissima. What is that? I know I've seen maybe one or two other organs > than have 64' ranks but don't remember which. But specifically, does anyone > know what that stop is on St. Patrick's organ, as it were. > Robert Bernardino Colasacco > =3D=3D=3D=3D > > It is unfair to ask any builder to respond to this question, let alone a > list of people who have most likely not had to go through the = calculations > of designing and proposing a pipe organ for a client. > > There is no average. > > Smaller pipe organs cost more per rank than larger ones. > Are you talking about a 1-1/3' Larigot or a 16' Gamba? > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat Digest #3017 - 08/07/02 From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:48:07 -0500   I had one of those reed Wurlitzers......made in 1947 as I recall. It was a heavy monster, but I had fun with it. The only weird thing about it was that perhaps once an hour or so it would emit the strangest rotten egg smell!   BTW, if you'd really like an Artiste, they do come on the market periodically. I've seen two offered for sale since I got mine in May. One was a really beat up looking 1936 Artiste sold by Penn State U for over $6,000! Somebody--in Minneapolis, I think--was offering a 1966 Artiste. I don't know what it sold for. But if you live in an apartment, make sure there's a freight elevator at least 8 feet deep. Artistes will go through 30" doorways (yes, really) as long as you don't have to make a tight turn at the same time.   Dennis Steckley   Ich liebe meine Katzen   -----Original Message-----  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipes vs. Electroids From: <Chicaleee@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 00:28:50 EDT     Dennis, How I would love to have a 2M Moeller Artiste in my home, but I live in an apartment complex and have a 2M classically registered WurliTzer with AGO pedals. (We practically had to tear down the doors of the apartment in order to get it in place)      
(back) Subject: the pricing of pipe organs From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 07:59:22 -0700   With respect to Sebastian and others, we ran into this problem along the way.   Several builders replied thusly:   "Commit to us and THEN we'll give you a detailed plan AND a firm price."   Now, you have to understand that my organ committee is made up of high-powered financial managers and CEOs of major companies in Southern California.   They simply LAUGHED at a response like that.   "Get three firm bids for what you want, Bud, and we'll consider THOSE, and no others.   We understand that accepting the lowest bid may not be the best course of action.   There's no WAY we're going to commit to a builder without a price SET IN STONE.   There WILL BE a completion bond AND a penalty clause, and in the case of a small shop, term life insurance on the organ-builder.   We need D & B ratings and credit references on all bidders.   Developing proposals is part of the cost of doing business."   Those are DIRECT QUOTES from the minutes of our Organ Committee meetings.   Folks, like it or not, that's the way business is done in the real world. My committee was committed to a pipe organ ... I didn't have THAT hurdle to overcome ... but it was going to be purchased like anything ELSE for the new church.   I don't think that's unreasonable.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #3017 - 08/07/02 From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:00:56 EDT     --part1_81.1f8f9c0c.2a829028_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Dear Dennis,   I played 2 Moller Artiste organs from the time I was 10 years old until I left for college. One was at St. Perpetua Church, McKeesport ,Pa = and the other at St, Stephen Church, McKeesport. Pa. BOTH were kept in tune = and are in immaculate condition to date. I would practice on them all summer = when home from Oberlin and I always found them to be a delight to play. Getting =   nostalgic here. LOL St Stephen recently closed its door and I am wondering what they are going = to do with the organ. I would love to buy for my church and incorporate it = with our present pipe/digital combo. Have a great day!!   Daniel   --part1_81.1f8f9c0c.2a829028_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Dear Dennis,<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I played 2 Moller Artiste = organs&nbsp; from the time I was 10 years old until I left for college. = One was at St. Perpetua Church, McKeesport ,Pa and the other at St, = Stephen Church, McKeesport. Pa. BOTH were kept in tune and are in = immaculate condition to date. I would practice on them all summer when = home from Oberlin and I always found them to be a delight to play. Getting = nostalgic here.&nbsp;&nbsp; LOL<BR> St Stephen recently closed its door and I am wondering what they are going = to do with the organ. I would love to buy for my church and incorporate it = with our present pipe/digital combo. Have a great day!!<BR> <BR> Daniel</FONT></HTML>   --part1_81.1f8f9c0c.2a829028_boundary--  
(back) Subject: bringing a Wurlitzer reed organ to A=3D440 From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 08:05:10 -0700   I wonder if it wouldn't be a matter of just cleaning the reeds, providing you could find someone who still knew how to DO that.   Reed organ reeds CAN be tuned, of course, but people who remember how to do THAT are few and far between.   I suppose it IS possible if the organ's old enough that it was BUILT to a slightly lower pitch. But I thought by post WWII that organs had pretty much settled on A=3D440.   Our 1929 Austin was tuned to something weird like A=3D437, and that WAS original, because we experimented with taking an octave of the trumpet down to A=3D435 and up to A=3D440, and it wouldn't speak properly at = either of the other pitches.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: the pricing of pipe organs From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:10:46 EDT     --part1_18f.c03f300.2a829276_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Dear Bud, You are a hoot. I enjoy your postings and great info. You say it = like it is. When we were looking for a new organ last year the Organ Committee =   was told: You will get 6 bids, reduce it to the three best and not go over = $ 170,000. Then they wanted a full contract with each and the Pastor and = Parish Council had the final vote. We gave our recommendations. The Catholic Church!! LOL God help me!!! Daniel   --part1_18f.c03f300.2a829276_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" = FACE=3D"Times New Roman" LANG=3D"0">Dear Bud,<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You are a hoot. I enjoy your postings = and great info. You say it like it is. When we were looking for a new = organ last year the Organ Committee&nbsp; was told: You will get 6 bids, = reduce it to the three best and not go over $ 170,000. Then they wanted a = full contract with each and the Pastor and Parish Council had the final = vote. We gave our recommendations. The Catholic Church!! LOL God help = me!!!&nbsp;&nbsp; Daniel</FONT></HTML>   --part1_18f.c03f300.2a829276_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: What is average cost per rk average organ? From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:13:42 EDT     --part1_188.c036121.2a829326_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Hi Gang.......   As a rule, the 64' Gravissima is a resultant.   Bill   --part1_188.c036121.2a829326_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D3>Hi Gang.......<BR> <BR> As a rule, the 64' Gravissima is a resultant.<BR> <BR> Bill</FONT></HTML>   --part1_188.c036121.2a829326_boundary--  
(back) Subject: RE: What is average cost per rk average organ? From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:16:03 -0400   This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E25.5847FCA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   But it's probably a Bourdon or Subbass, no? Hi Gang.......   As a rule, the 64' Gravissima is a resultant.   Bill   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E25.5847FCA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1">     <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4916.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D886331515-07082002><FONT face=3D"Footlight MT Light" color=3D#800000>But it's probably a Bourdon or Subbass, = no?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT size=3D3>Hi =   Gang.......<BR><BR>As a rule, the 64' Gravissima is a resultant.<BR><BR>Bill</FONT> </FONT></BODY></HTML>   ------_=3D_NextPart_001_01C23E25.5847FCA0--  
(back) Subject: We need a new topic: How about Drawknob layout??? (X-Posted) From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:23:05 -0500     Good morning, fellow listers.   I would like to ask both organists and my colleagues a question as pertains to the topic of drawknob layout on terraced consoles.   I'm familiar with two different "schools" of layout thought and wanted to receive some opinions as to what people consider to be "better". Obviously: something like this is always subjective and a matter of personal taste, but I'm especially interested in hearing from those people who DO have terraced drawknob consoles and have them report what they have in terms of layouts and what they either like or dislike about the arrangement.   Please understand that I'm not interested in receiving opinions as to the merits of terraced as opposed to bolstered drawknob layouts!   Anyway, those two "schools" of layout thought are as follows:   Cavaille-Coll (and their ilk): Stops appear in "manual order" with Pedal being the lowest "terrace" with stops appearing on BOTH sides of the keyboards with each manual appearing as its own succeeding "terrace" above the Pedal and being divided on either side of the corresponding manual.   Old American Tracker approach: Stops for any given manual, except for the Pedal (which usually is still the lowest "terrace" divided on either side of the keyboard) appear in "clusters" on the terraces and are grouped, inasmuch as possible, by complete divisions on one side of the keyboard. In other words: all of the Swell drawknobs would be located on the second and succeeding terraces on the left-hand side of the keyboards while the Great would put in a similar appearance on the right side.   I don't know if anyone has really actually put much serious thought into such matters and would be interested in hearing the opinions of both builders and performers alike in this regard. This could be a very lively and (hopefully) "non-combative" topic -for once!     -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Bringing a Wurlitzer reed organ to A=3D440 From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:37:43 -0500     quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > I wonder if it wouldn't be a matter of just cleaning the reeds, > providing you could find someone who still knew how to DO that. > Reed organ reeds CAN be tuned, of course, but people who remember how to > do THAT are few and far between.   I'm one of them. Whenever we re-build our reed organs for customers, we not only clean the reeds in BRASSO, but then give them a complete "meter" tuning afterward. They usually sound better then they ever did new!   Faithfully, -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Re: 64' Vox Gravissima From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:56:25 EDT   A resultant stop.   32' (second harmonic) + 21-1/3' (third harmonic) in large rooms can give = the impression of a 64' pitch in certain locations within that room, depending =   upon where the listener stands.   SMG  
(back) Subject: Re: the pricing of pipe organs From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:02:22 -0500     quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > Several builders replied thusly: > "Commit to us and THEN we'll give you a detailed plan AND a firm price." I cannot speak for the other builders you contacted but in fairness: one needs to realize that in order to accurately and intelligently PRICE an organ project, one has to virtually DESIGN the entire project, top-to-bottom before doing the take-offs for pricing.   That's expensive time, and LOTS of it.   Builders are looking for a commitment because, quite frankly, there's a lot of assholes running around out there with nothing to do but to contact organ companies and have them design their "pipe dream" for free, and then turn around and start shopping for used organ parts and go to OSI to buy whatever they haven't found for next to free and buy it at the builder's costs and do the whole thing themselves.   Don't laugh. I've seen it happen exactly that way!   > They simply LAUGHED at a response like that.   Perhaps, but NONE of them have ever tried to run an ORGAN COMPANY, have they? They are obviously operating in spheres of high finance and high profitability. A place where organbuilders do not go. If they were able to, you can plan on spending 3 times the $30,000.00/rank you so utterly scoff at if we were ever to able to enjoy the margins those clowns have. That's why they can afford to live in California in those multi-million dollar mansions and why you and I are barely eking out a livelihood in virtual poverty; at least relatively speaking.   Think about it. We all buy time. And if we spend a portion of that valuable time pursuing work that will never happen, then no one's going to take pity on us and say: "There-there. Sorry it didn't work out, but here's $50,000.00 for your troubles!"   So, it's a business decision. > "Get three firm bids for what you want, Bud, and we'll consider THOSE, > and no others.   There are actually companies now, such as auto repairs shops that CHARGE for their estimates, and you can bet that they have to spend a HELL of a lot less time figuring out those estimates than we do. > There's no WAY we're going to commit to a builder without a price SET IN > STONE.   Then I think you need to be prepared to compensate all three of the builders for the time it takes to get the price to a point where it IS in stone! Obviously, we can give "ranges" without a great deal of estimating time, but if the price has to be down to the last screw, then that requires an estimator's take-off, and THAT is expensive time.   > There WILL BE a completion bond AND a penalty clause, and in the case of > a small shop, term life insurance on the organ-builder.   I won't discuss that at this point, as that's not germane to my point. There's pros and cons to all of that. Penalty clauses can be a bad thing if the reasons for delays are beyond one's control (we all have vendors and cannot directly control what happens with them)   I will say this: I had one recent situation where the new sub-contracted windchests burned-up in a fire! What good would it have been for the church to invoke a Penalty Clause against me (implying: "You're a BAD person and now we're going to beat you up for something you had no control over!") Obviously, if someone isn't doing their job with due diligence, then there's always the avenue of litigation open. As I say: there are pros and cons to that situation.   > We need D & B ratings and credit references on all bidders.   That's certainly reasonable in any business. > Developing proposals is part of the cost of doing business."   Granted: but we still have to qualify the customers in order to not spend all of our time chasing someone's "Pipe Dreams" that quite frankly have as much chance of flying as pigs becoming aerodynamic. Remember the profit margins they have compared to us.   > Folks, like it or not, that's the way business is done in the real > world.   And like it or not, Bud, NO ONE is willing to pay the margins that it takes to do all of the above without fail to an organbuilder. Those costs to any business are ENORMOUS, and if you spread it over the thousands and thousands of man-hours that an instrument takes to complete, it add an enormous overhead burden to the project. The customer base is unwilling to support that burden, so they cannot be expected to receive it if they're unwilling to pay for it.   > I don't think that's unreasonable.   No, but you can't have it both ways: (that is to say: something for nothing!) Faithfully,   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL mailto:arp@starband.net SHOP SATELLITE EMAIL mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME OFFICE EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL