PipeChat Digest #3029 - Saturday, August 10, 2002
 
new is ...
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Correction - Re: Johannes Organs
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
Good News, I think
  by "Mack" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
RE: new is ...
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: new is ...
  by "noel jones" <zimbelstern@onemain.com>
Re: Being Romantic
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: new is ...
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Gravissima
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net>
RE: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "Keith Wannamaker" <Keith@Wannamaker.org>
Re: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net>
RE: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: 5-1/3' Reed
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Johannus Organs
  by <Wurlibird1@aol.com>
Re: breathless playing
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: new is ...
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Johannes Organs and Gravissima
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: new is ... From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:17:20 -0700   Ron's thinking is one valid approach to aesthetics, albeit a Romantic one. It is the same aesthetic that regarded the harpsichord as a "primitive" precursor to the modern piano, rather than a musical instrument in its own right, with its own literature. It is the same aesthetic that proclaimed the historically remote (Gregorian Chant and Palestrina) as "intrinsically" more sacred than the music of Mozart, Haydn and Gounod.   I have no quarrel with that aesthetic, but it must be understood both in the context of the Romantic Movement in general and the Industrial Revolution in particular as applied to organ-building.   The steam engine, the factory, the assembly line, standard pipe scales .... they're all related. So are some of the hysterically funny early experiments at applying electricity to the organ (other than to the blowing plant).   My point is simple: in that universe, newer was better, innovation was automatically improvement ... when in point of fact, sometimes it was, and sometimes it wasn't.   The pitman chest is a case in point. Yes, the action is wondrously quick, and yes, it allows more flexibility in some areas ... it's a prime example of the mindset of the early industrial revolution as applied to organ-building. But it's also more complex and not as durable as the simplicity of the classic slider chest. Was it an improvement?   The computer I write this on is another example ... I love writing letters, essays, articles, etc. ... I managed quite handily with the Post Office and a manual typewriter for years ... then the IBM Selectric came along, and yes, that was an improvement; then someone gave me a Radio Shack TRS-80 in lieu of a rent payment; yes, that was an improvement, and I clung to it as a word processor LONG after everyone ELSE had a PC; then I went to work for a totally "wired" church, and a PC and Internet access came with the job. Each step has been an inprovement, but there have been tradeoffs along the way. Now my work goes directly to my publisher, or to the church, without my ever having to touch a hard copy of it. I still occasionally print things out, just for the satisfaction of holding them in my hands. I was dragged (kicking and screaming) from my last bastion -- hand-written music calligraphy .... now I can't IMAGINE life without Sibelius (grin). But I still miss the beauty of the hand-written manuscript.   That was a long way of saying that sometimes we get it backwards ... we never NEEDED hundreds of pistons and memory levels BEFORE ... but now that we can HAVE them, we INVENT reasons why we HAVE to have them.   A second console for Woolsey Hall? Oh DEAR! There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with the one that's THERE.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Correction - Re: Johannes Organs From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 13:19:34 -0500   I should have been more clear---a local church had the issue of deciding on a new digital organ---I was asked to be on the committee---and then WE (the church that was deciding on organs) had an Allen and a Rodgers in the sanctuary at the same time. I was part of "their" decision process.   Just for clarification... Paul   Paul Soulek wrote: > > A local church had the same issue of deciding on a new digital organ. We > actually had an Allen Renaissance 230 and a Rodgers Trillium 807 in the > building at the same time. The prices were very comparable. It was an > open & shut case for the Rodgers, the sound filled the room much better. > The Allen was "bearable", but in my opinion the Rodgers really did much > more---plus there were many voices and nice options that really made the > Rodgers easier to play---and listen to. I have heard the Johannus demo > CD, and was quite impressed. I'm waiting for the opportunity to hear one > in a good room---then I might have something to say about them as well.  
(back) Subject: Good News, I think From: "Mack" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 14:21:23 -0400   For those of us who listen to RTR FM from Perth, Australia on Fridays, it seems, at this moment in time, 2PM, that there are no restrictions on the station as there was last week.   I have tried both connectiog with winamp through live365 and with the link from realplayer and both seem to work now.   Cheers,   Mack    
(back) Subject: RE: new is ... From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:55:39 -0400   Well with all due respect..., sometimes maybe we DID need something but = the technology just wasn't there yet. So now we have it and use it. That = said, I'll add, BUT we don't have to use it. So caro Schoenburg is the only one, or at least of whom we can think at the moment, who has composed for "push-button" organs but now others CAN compose for them because we = got'em. We've all seen the old north german and dutch organs with beautifully = carved heads on those very awkward draw knobs; just how smooth, even with someone extra who may have changed registrations for the organist, do you think combination changes were? In spite of all the wonderful eyewitness reporting, just how smoothly did Bach's playing go. I'd say it was all relative to the times and other organists and the instrument at hand. I'd say there are no reports of delays between segments because it was the = norm. I'd day there were more delays than the brief ones we now here only = between the prelude and the fugue. But, I wasn't there. RBC Am I still on the Latin-L list?     That was a long way of saying that sometimes we get it backwards ... we never NEEDED hundreds of pistons and memory levels BEFORE ... but now that we can HAVE them, we INVENT reasons why we HAVE to have them.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: new is ... From: "noel jones" <zimbelstern@onemain.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 17:05:35 -0400       As far as delays between the pieces...I think that North American = Organists unaccustomed to the long reverberation rates in many European = Churches...even small ones...wouldfind the time for the sound to die out and stop changing = time to be about equal...   Only in our dead buildings do we have to deal with abrupt silence...and = rush to fill it.   noel jones, aago athens, tennessee, usa ------------------------------- frog music press, exec. dir. moderator, rodgers organ users group at: www.frogmusic.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Being Romantic From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:21:11 EDT   Dear Bud:   I knew that would get your attention. As far as documented hand registrations Carlo Curley on VHS is one of the most smooth hand registrants I have ever had the pleasure of watching on a tracker.   On new tracker organs voiced for use with old style ranks, I expect to see a Temperment suitable to the music it was built for. Hand registration is fine, and it also is a different style of playing, and music from a simpler day also. Thirty note flat pedalboards is what I expect to see and 54 or 56 note keyboards. It shouldn't be a museum piece with an attitude (Equal Temperment). It quickly becomes a square peg in a round hole otherwise.   There's one organ A Jardine that used to be in St. Patrick's Cathedral in NYC. I wish who ever took it out could have found it a suitable home in 1930-31. There are some very fine 19th and early 20th Century organ's on the East coast just sitting and rotting. Those could be conserved and rebuilt w/o any changes. These are huge instruments. Lynnwood Farnum's Magnum Opus is just sitting unplayable. Now there is a good project and an expensive one. Check me if I'm wrong, but I think that is in Emmanuel Episcopal, Tremont Temple is another in Boston. These should not be neglected as they are now. The smaller organs fare better because of their small size.   My point about rebuilding used organs is not that they shouldn't be put = back in service, they should. but to lie and tell the uniniated and the innocent that this is a cheap way to get into an organ, will reap disappointment when the final cost is calculated is pure smoke and mirrors. These are worthy instruments, but we should be honest enough up front that you don't go running out with a truck, dismantle, and cart away, and reinstall in a few days, walah instant successful organ. It takes big bucks. These people need to know that, and not shined on to with a lot of nonsensical Montra's and platitudes. The people this hurts the most are organists and churches with really modest means. who love organ music, but not a lot of money. I do think you'll all agree, this notion being spread far and wide needs qualification. it's not cheap, but expensive. Is it worth doing? sure but it takes a more than a $5,000 or $10,000 commitment sometimes 10 or 100 times that depending on the size. This is where the disapointment sets in and a church decides the mountain is just too big and buys, you guessed it the alternative. We set this up to happen and we don't realize it. We should!   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Re: new is ... From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:30:26 EDT   Talking about reverberation:   I just finished watching a funeral service for NBA announcer Chick Hearn. St. Martin of Tours, Brentwood is deader than a pitch fork with broken prongs. The pipe/digital sounded dreadful and what was worse was the singing, poor guy. The pipes sounded worse than the digital and that doesn't say much for this four manual disappointment. I've never seen a more stark church interior. It certainly wouldn't get me back for a second visit. The organist wasn't that good either.   Ron  
(back) Subject: Re: Gravissima From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 16:41:40 -0500   On 8/8/02 7:43 AM, Douglas Morgan wrote:   > If such a useless stop as a 64' flue or reed were > built, can you imagine how much that would cost? It's > diffecult enough to get a good 32' in an organ.   My question was rhetorical Keith - like you, I think 64' stops, pipe or electronic, are rather silly. And imagine the resources one could have for the equivalent cost and space!   TTFN, Russ Greene    
(back) Subject: Re: 5-1/3' Reed From: "Antoni Scott" <ascott@ptd.net> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:01:32 -0400   All:   Quint reeds are not new at all. Most people that offer an opinion about "quint" reeds base it on no previous experience at all. The Atlantic City Convention Hall organ has several "quint" reeds, all which are independent ranks, not borrowed or duplexed. For example: Voice # 112 (Tromba Quint 5-1/3), Voice # 114 (Tromba Twelfth 2-2/3), Voice # 209 (Tromba Quint 10-2/3), Voice # 210 (Tromba Tierce 6-2/3).   Emerson Richards stated that the "quint" reeds in combination with the 16's, 8's, and 4's offered a "blaze" of harmonics. One can only imagine how this must have sounded, since this masterpiece, at present, languishes in a state of political and economic impotence. I have not heard the "full" organ as it has been unplayable for some decades, but I have heard the right chamber's 160 previously playable ranks. If this is any indication of what the entire organ must have sounded like, it is a testiment to the most incredible instrument on the surface of the earth. Too bad that politics gets in the way of art.   We think that we have really made progress in the field of organ building, but we havn't. Emerson Richards got it right 72 years ago. Nothing has improved since. The travisty is that this jewel in the crown of organ building has been left to decay and fester.   Other organ builders have thrown in a "quint" reed every now and then. The Atlantic City Organ was built on such a grand and magnificent scale that the "quint" reed sounds probably added to the already totally complete specification of this organ and only enhanced the ensemble.   Antoni  
(back) Subject: RE: 5-1/3' Reed From: "Keith Wannamaker" <Keith@Wannamaker.org> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 18:18:26 -0500   Hi Antoni,   What is the scoop about the situation at ACCC? I know Dennis McGurk retired a few years ago. The site now says the organ can't even be turned on. Given enough money to fix the instrument, is there a political impasse?   Keith   | -----Original Message----- | From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of | Antoni Scott | Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 5:02 PM | To: PipeChat | Subject: Re: 5-1/3' Reed | | Nothing has improved since. The travisty is that this jewel in the crown | of organ building has been left to decay and fester.    
(back) Subject: Re: 5-1/3' Reed From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 17:55:17 -0500   Could someone tell me what "ACCC" stands for? (pardon the midwest grammer too!).   jon bertschinger  
(back) Subject: Re: 5-1/3' Reed From: "Marika E. Buchberger, LRPS" <marika57@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 18:55:08 -0400   The American College of Cute Critters........   jon bertschinger wrote:   > Could someone tell me what "ACCC" stands for? (pardon the > midwest grammer too!). > > jon bertschinger > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org   -- ***************************************************** Healthcare references for everyone. "Recipient of the year 2000 Featured Site Award at healthAtoZ.com" http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/m_erika.html   Internet Safety Lessons. Must reading for everyone. http://home.earthlink.net/~marika57/safetylessons.html *****************************************************      
(back) Subject: RE: 5-1/3' Reed From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:20:47 -0400     Shouldn't voice #210 be at 6'-2/5" to be a tierce?   Voice # 210 (Tromba Tierce 6-2/3). Just splitting hairs. AjM          
(back) Subject: Re: 5-1/3' Reed From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:38:38 -0400   Hi Andrew, It is indeed as noted as 6'-2/5 in Stephen Smith's Book "Atlantic City's Musical Masterpiece" on page 214. Mike     Andrew Mead wrote:   > Shouldn't voice #210 be at 6'-2/5" to be a tierce? > > Voice # 210 (Tromba Tierce 6-2/3). > Just splitting hairs. > AjM > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Organs From: <Wurlibird1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:59:20 EDT   For those who inquired about Johannus Organs, be certain you see and hear = the newest models. They are light years ahead of what was available just a = year or so ago. More channels, greater sampling rate, and more improved = voicing. This is not a sales pitch, just an advisory that their latest models are = very much improved and certainly worth a listen.   Best wishes, Jim Pitts  
(back) Subject: Re: breathless playing From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:04:51 EDT     --part1_127.15193956.2a85dcd3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/9/02 6:00:25 PM !!!First Boot!!!, runyonr@muohio.edu writes:     > If I understand you correctly, you are saying that in Franck the changes = in > registration are meant to take a little time to accomplish, that these > "breaths" are built into the music. Any other composers of which that = can > be said? > Although there is no documentation of his intentions, I would apply this = also to the music of most baroque composers.   I haven't played Messiaen, but from looking at the scores and hearing = people play it, I think that M's music would rest easier on the ears if a bit = more time was taken at is progresses. There has always seemed to be a = restless aspect, almost an irritation, in the performance of his works.   Slight pauses for registration changes relieves the monotony of a = metronomic performance.     Bruce in the Muttestery at Howling Acres = http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 ....an opportunity for health & wealth http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053   --part1_127.15193956.2a85dcd3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/9/02 6:00:25 PM !!!First Boot!!!, runyonr@muohio.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">If I understand = you correctly, you are saying that in Franck the changes in registration = are meant to take a little time to accomplish, that these "breaths" are = built into the music. &nbsp;Any other composers of which that can be said? <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Although there is no documentation of his = intentions, I would apply this also to the music of most baroque = composers. &nbsp; <BR> <BR>I haven't played Messiaen, but from looking at the scores and hearing = people play it, I think that M's music would rest easier on the ears if a = bit more time was taken at is progresses. &nbsp;&nbsp;There has always = seemed to be a restless aspect, almost an irritation, in the performance = of his works. <BR> <BR>Slight pauses for registration changes relieves the monotony of a = metronomic performance. <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce in the Muttestery at Howling Acres = http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 <BR>...an opportunity for health &amp; wealth = &nbsp;http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053</FONT></HTML>   --part1_127.15193956.2a85dcd3_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: new is ... From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 23:10:04 EDT     --part1_c6.fd8bed6.2a85de0c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/9/02 9:07:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, zimbelstern@onemain.com writes:     > Only in our dead buildings do we have to deal with abrupt silence...and = rush > to > fill it.   But I think rushing to fill the silence is a mistake, and only creates an equally or more annoying result.   Bruce in the Muttestery at Howling Acres = http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 ....an opportunity for health & wealth http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053   --part1_c6.fd8bed6.2a85de0c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/9/02 9:07:57 PM !!!First Boot!!!, zimbelstern@onemain.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Only in our dead = buildings do we have to deal with abrupt silence...and rush to <BR>fill it.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>But I think rushing to fill the silence is a mistake, and only creates = an equally or more annoying result. <BR> <BR>Bruce in the Muttestery at Howling Acres = http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 <BR>...an opportunity for health &amp; wealth = &nbsp;http://visionsuccess.com/BC2053</FONT></HTML>   --part1_c6.fd8bed6.2a85de0c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Johannes Organs and Gravissima From: "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 06:15:13 +0000   To suggest Allen is better than the rest seems a bit extreme! I have not played every instrument on the market - I have a Viscount Jubilate which = is remarkably good for its price, and the larger models are, I understand, = even better. The Allen seems expensive and I wonder if it is worth the extra money. I am looking for a three or four manual organ for concert use in = our civic centre on Mount Olympus, and intend spending a week at Christmas seeing as many as possible in the UK, so I will be better placed to judge then, but listening to the CD's sent me recently by Phoenix and Allen I would have to say that the Phoenix sounds the more authentic, musical and dynamic instrument. Interestingly enough, both programmes are remarkably similar, though played by two different organists. You can hear the = Phoenix on their website at http://www.phoenix-organs.co.uk/ On the Allen, although the flutes, full swell and aetherial effects - distant strings and celestes etc. could well have come from a pipe organ, the Diapason/Principal sound seems somewhat static. re The 32' reed/flue debate : The 32' pedal reed I mentioned (St David's Cathedral, Wales) was already getting on a bit 30 years ago, and somewhat less than stable - it was quite authentic in a funny sort of way! I don't know if it's still there.I don't agree that an electronic stop is intrinsically less musical than a pipe at this pitch - or any other, to be honest. Some work, others don't, and the ever changing environmental state of a building - temperature, humidity and the number of people and the clothes they are wearing lead to a constant acoustic kaleidoscope. I have no connection whatsoever with any organ manufacturer so my opinion = is completely unbiased! John Foss       _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com