PipeChat Digest #3055 - Friday, August 16, 2002
 
Re: When to go to a 3rd manual
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
One nice things
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: When to go to a 3rd manual
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Re: WIND PRESSURE
  by "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com>
Prices for practice pipe organs
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: When to go to a 3rd manual
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: WIND PRESSURE
  by "Douglas Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com>
Re: Allen available
  by "J. Nathan" <jnatpat@infi.net>
Re: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin)
  by "G. Deboer" <gdeboer@bluemarble.net>
Re: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com>
Re: Prices for practice pipe organs
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: When to go to a 3rd manual From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:40:46 EDT     --part1_2f.2b904f09.2a8d6bce_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 8/15/2002 11:47:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, c.elders@tcu.edu writes:     > So if your manual 2 has a string, flute, diapason, mutations, reed, etc. =   > they would also be on the 3rd manual. Then you could play the string > against the flute, or diapason against the flute or string, or reed = against > the flute, etc. This would give you a way to "break out" or split the > resources of the 2nd manual. >   There was a time that Moller would build a 3 manual organ with a Swell division and a Great/Choir division where a few select stops would play = only on the Great manual (pluss most of the Choir division ranks) and one or 2 sets would playonly on the Choir (such as a Clarinet or other "solo" reed stop) along with a majority of the choir/great stops. This was done using their "duplex" pitman chests...a technique that allowd both Inter -manual = and intra-manual borrows using shifters and internal lead-tubed octave borrows = to play stops at either 2 pitches OR from 2 different manuals.   Also, it was mentioned that some moller pitman chests did not work too = well on less than 3" wind pressure...this was mostly true, but SOME moller = organs with lower pressures (2 1/2 to 2 3/4 w.p.)were built, these used different =   pitmans and the pitman seat spacing was critical to proper operation. = these thin pitmans were prone to warpage and required replacement after some = time as they would leak wind back into the stop exhaust channel, causing random =   dead-notes and/or ceiphering.   Rick in VA   --part1_2f.2b904f09.2a8d6bce_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 8/15/2002 11:47:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, c.elders@tcu.edu writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">So if your manual = 2 has a string, flute, diapason, mutations, reed, etc. they would also be = on the 3rd manual. &nbsp;Then you could play the string against the flute, = or diapason against the flute or string, or reed against the flute, etc. = &nbsp;This would give you a way to "break out" or split the resources of = the 2nd manual. <BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR>There was a time that Moller would build a 3 manual organ with a Swell = division and a Great/Choir division where a few select stops would play = only on the Great manual (pluss most of the Choir division ranks) and one = or 2 sets would playonly on the Choir (such as a Clarinet or other "solo" = reed stop) along with a majority of the choir/great stops. This was done = using their "duplex" pitman chests...a technique that allowd both Inter = -manual and intra-manual borrows using shifters and internal lead-tubed = octave borrows to play stops at either 2 pitches OR from 2 different = manuals. <BR> <BR>Also, it was mentioned that some moller pitman chests did not work too = well on less than 3" wind pressure...this was mostly true, but SOME moller = organs with lower pressures (2 1/2 to 2 3/4 w.p.)were built, these used = different pitmans and the pitman seat spacing was critical to proper = operation. these thin pitmans were prone to warpage and required = replacement after some time as they would leak wind back into the stop = exhaust channel, causing random dead-notes and/or ceiphering. <BR> <BR>Rick in VA</FONT></HTML>   --part1_2f.2b904f09.2a8d6bce_boundary--  
(back) Subject: One nice things From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:34:30 -0400   One nice thing about this group is that we've all got our pants at least half unzipped, so one can say anything---even, by accident, to a wider-than-intended audience---and nobody's going to get bent out of shape about it.   Kind of nice, to put it gently.   Alan T & D gratias!      
(back) Subject: Re: When to go to a 3rd manual From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:47:19 -0500   in the "70's" on a few instruments, M=F6ller had skived their own pitman leather, and it was made too thin. I know because I had to replace pitmans in a 3m instrument. There also were wilting pipes, broken springs on large tuning collars, and a host of other problems. Probably trying to save a penny here and there to keep the company operating.   jon bertschinger  
(back) Subject: Re: WIND PRESSURE From: "jon bertschinger" <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:13:28 -0500   Douglas Morgan wrote:   > > > voiced on 3" pressure, sometimes some voicing steps > are necessary to correct some pipes which have become > "quick", and occasionally, some very slight cutting up > is required. > > If you aren't an experienced voicer, DON'T try cutting   excuse me list for butting in here, but WHY cut up pipes? raising the wind pressure does NOT necessitate cutting pipes higher. regulate from the toe....that's why WE don't voice open toe.   jon bertschinger temple organs saint joseph, mo  
(back) Subject: Prices for practice pipe organs From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:22:34 EDT   Any good builder will give you a bid if you are serious. They will give you a firm bid, usually locked for 30, 60, or 90 days.   Organbuilders do NOT stay in business by being vague and not giving bids. Serious inquiries are met with serious responses.   If a builder does not get the impression that the inquirer is really serious, or ready to actually purchase the organ in the next 6 to 12 = months, they may be slower on the draw in terms of a response. Frequently, = requests regarding residence instruments are nebulous and do NOT show serious = intent. The worst residence organ inquiries are along the lines of, "I'm = deciding whether I want an organ or a new car. Even then, my husband wants new golf =   clubs, so he may not contribute." I'm NOT making this up. How much time is =   the builder going to spend at the drafting table for such a request? Another factor is the "settle" factor. Read the chat lists and see = what people are willing to settle for. They want to spend four thousand dollars = on a practice pipe organ, and do so. "It's fine for my purposes" is uttered = in alternatum with complaints. In closing, many builders have built small instruments, and have = already done the engineering. Some have stock models, already priced out, and the only thing that changes is the scaling and the details of the casework. = There are at least a dozen builders out there with stock models, I'm sure. Most builders have supplies of vintage pipework, as well as 'leads' on small, rebuildable organs, upon which they would GLADLY bid if there were serious =   inquiries. If you are ready to have an organ built, you'll find an organbuilder ready to build. Sebastian Matthaus Gluck New York City  
(back) Subject: Re: When to go to a 3rd manual From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:38:19 EDT   When you've got a really decent two-manual instrument already.   A skeletal three-manual usually robs an organ of its robustness, = duplicating 8' stopped flutes just to get 8' tone on the third manual, resorting to = tiny Positivs, Swells without real reed forces, three-rank mixtures pitched too =   high, REALLY cheating the Pedal division of any guts, etc.  
(back) Subject: Re: WIND PRESSURE From: "Douglas Morgan" <aeolian_skinner@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:45:00 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Mr. Bertschinger:   You are quite correct in, that as a general rule, pipes do not need cutting up when the wind pressure is raised. But occasionally a pipe will become so quick that it will "roll", overblow to its octave, etc. The only solution is to shave the upper lip slightly.   If the languid cannot be raised enough to correct this, just a slight shaving of the upper lip will correct this and also can eliminate a "clunk" from capped metal flutes, and sometimes the pipes might have been cut a little low to begin with.   What I was emphasizing was not to arbitrarily cut up pipes. I have seen a number of organs butchered beyond restoration by people who were knife-happy but didn't know what they were doing. As a general rule, I am very reluctant to cut a pipe on the job, because there is not a pipe shop handy if I accidentally cut a pipe too high, or have a slip of the knife. You can cut it off, but you can't put it back.   I agree with you about having some control at the toe of the pipe. What people don't realize is that there must be some control of the wind from the chest to the languid. I have seen many beautirul pipes with this "open toed voicing" where the windway was so narrow that you couldn't get a piece of paper in there, and the stop was as dull and fluty as any leather-lipped Diapason Phonon I have ever heard. I'd just as soon have a Hammond.   D. Keith Morgan     --- jon bertschinger <jonberts@magiccablepc.com> wrote: > Douglas Morgan wrote: > > > > > > > voiced on 3" pressure, sometimes some voicing > steps > > are necessary to correct some pipes which have > become > > "quick", and occasionally, some very slight > cutting up > > is required. > > > > If you aren't an experienced voicer, DON'T try > cutting > > excuse me list for butting in here, but WHY cut up > pipes? > raising the wind pressure does NOT necessitate > cutting pipes > higher. regulate from the toe....that's why WE > don't voice open > toe. > > jon bertschinger > temple organs > saint joseph, mo > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Allen available From: "J. Nathan" <jnatpat@infi.net> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:37:13 -0500   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_007B_01C244AC.4D0EE280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Good luck to you both...hope the instrument finds a caring home! If PA = =3D wasn't a tad too far from Kentucky, I would be there tomorrow!!   JNathan   Okay, after this all shakes out - ask the organ if it might like a =3D home in the great nation of Exton, PA and then we might, just might, =3D talk. Peace.   Dear Nathan, I am located in Schnecksville, Pa. 5 miles north of Allentown, = =3D Pa. Paul   ------=3D_NextPart_000_007B_01C244AC.4D0EE280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Palatino Linotype">Good luck to you both...hope the = =3D instrument=3D20 finds a caring home!&nbsp;&nbsp; If PA wasn't a tad too far from =3D Kentucky,&nbsp;=3D20 I would be there tomorrow!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Palatino Linotype"><BR>JNathan</FONT><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D3D2>Okay, after this all = shakes =3D out - ask=3D20 the organ if it might like a home in the great nation of Exton, PA and = =3D then we=3D20 might, just might, talk.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D Peace.</FONT><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear Nathan,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am =3D located in=3D20 Schnecksville, Pa. 5 miles north of Allentown, Pa.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT = =3D   face=3D3DArial=3D20 =3D size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= =3D p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp= =3D ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&= =3D nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D2= 0 Paul</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_007B_01C244AC.4D0EE280--      
(back) Subject: Re: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin) From: "G. Deboer" <gdeboer@bluemarble.net> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:54:20 -0500   It is truly sad that you still have not discovered the capabilities of a Johannus.     ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "pipechat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:30 PM Subject: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin)     > Bruce raises what I think is a legitimate question about ALL electronic > instruments, not just A****: > > WHO DESIGNS THESE THINGS??? > > Given the freedom to more-or-less do whatever they WANT with relatively > little FINANCIAL impact, it MUST be the result of some VERY skewed > focus-group marketing research. > > That said, of COURSE you're going to pay more for ANY organ with 32's, > party horns, multiple celestes, etc. ... BUT, if the stated purpose is > to REPRODUCE something (as far as the limitations of present technology > will allow), then why all the UNauthentic stuff? > > Case in point: in a pipe organ, the voicing of one stop CAN affect the > voicing of another stop to a CERY MINOR degree, depending on proximity, > type of windchest, etc. ... but pipe organ stops are NOT yoked together, > EVER (well, OK, monkey quints, and Ludwigtones ... but how many monkey > quints and Ludwigtones have you seen LATELY?). You voice the 8' > Principal, then you voice the 8' Chimney Flute, etc. etc. etc. > > In older analog electronic organs, it WAS possible to set the LEVEL of > each stop individually, EVEN THOUGH the stops were UNIFIED. > > That's the first point. > > Second point: ORGAN LITERATURE *demands* certain stops in certain places > at certain pitches, whether the organ is large or small, electronic or > pipe. > > The Cromorne needs to be OPPOSITE the Cornet, NOT on the same manual > with it (if there's only one Cornet). > > The Swell Oboe needs to be at 8', NOT 4', if you want to USE it for > anything ... and there needs to BE a Swell Oboe. > > One of my PET peeves is 3 and 4 manual electronics with ONE 8' principal > ANYWHERE in the manuals. WHY??? > > If electronics are gonna mimic pipe organs, then ... they should ... > (light bulb lights over Macungie, Hillsboro, etc. ... DING!) MIMIC PIPE > ORGANS (chuckle). > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Notre Dame - Paris From: "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:17:06 +0000   Some years ago I was on tour in France with a friend, and as I was = organist of Notre Dame de France in London at thetime the Paris Cathedral = authorities gave me the key to the organ loft. There was no piped music, but there must have been about 1,000 people walking round downstairs producing that buzz of conversation and rumble you get in a vast building. I switched on the organ, pressed the Tutti piston and played the Purcell March on full organ with solo fanfare trumpets. It was one of the most exciting sounds I =   have ever heard! When I stopped there was absolute silence in the = Cathedral. You could have heard a pin drop. That gave me a sense of power! I agreed with Edward Heath, one time British Prime Minister on this - he said that = as Prime Minister he had virtually no power but as organist this was a different matter! John Foss   _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx    
(back) Subject: Re: Prices for practice pipe organs From: "John Foss" <harfo32@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 06:44:44 +0000     Quite recently on the list there was some correspondence about "Organ designed by ....." I was looking through the NPOR list and came across an organ I had designed for the daughter church of the Church of St Thomas on =   the Bourne in Farnham Surrey. In fact the list credits me with having designed it - which was nice - as this was an unsolicited tribute! It is a =   small church and I drew up the specification and worked on the overall layout with Frank Bradbeer and Maurice Forsyth Grant - we left the scaling =   to Johnny Degens, our pipe maker and voicer, and the organ cost =A3800.00 = 35 years ago. Peter Hurford had an organ of similar specification installed = in his house - I think, but am not quite sure, that Farnham came first. You = can see the specification at http://lehuray2.csi.cam.ac.uk/npor.html I am strongly of the opinion that the position of the organ - ideally in = an unobstructed West gallery - is the most important factor in the way an instrument sounds in the building. The other general observation with regards to tracker action is that it is most satisfying to play when the pallets are as near vertically above the keyboard as possible and the horizontal travel is kept to a minimum. There are some lovely 2 manual tracker instruments in London which observe this principle - All Hallows, London Wall (Hill, II/P) The Merchant Taylor's hall, (Mander) ST Paul's Girl's school, Hammersmith to name but three. Incidentally, having given a =   link to the photo of the console of our pipe organ here in Katerini on the =   "drawstop" thread I was interested to see that I had 147 visitors to my = site on that day as opposed to the usual three or four, so somebody must read = my posts! Thank you! John Foss   _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com