PipeChat Digest #3057 - Friday, August 16, 2002
 
RE: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin)
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
RE: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
RE: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "Harry Martenas" <hmartena@columbiapa.org>
Re: Prices for practice pipe organs
  by "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net>
Re: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
Re: Allen available
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
RE: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu>
cornopean
  by "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org>
Re: Notre Dame - Paris
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
OFF-TOPIC: Automatic carillons - DELETE IF NOT INTERESTED
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin) From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:02:11 -0400   Yes, I have to chime in here. One of the other selling factors for me was the stoplist on Johannus. They seem to have organ designers who know what good organ design is classically.--RBC Take a look www.Johannus.com Even their small models (Opus) have quite good design stoplists.   -----Original Message----- From: G. Deboer [mailto:gdeboer@bluemarble.net] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:54 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin)     It is truly sad that you still have not discovered the capabilities of a Johannus.     ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> To: "pipechat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:30 PM Subject: NOT about the widgets vs. waldfloetes war (grin)     > Bruce raises what I think is a legitimate question about ALL electronic > instruments, not just A****: > > WHO DESIGNS THESE THINGS??? > > Given the freedom to more-or-less do whatever they WANT with relatively > little FINANCIAL impact, it MUST be the result of some VERY skewed > focus-group marketing research. > > That said, of COURSE you're going to pay more for ANY organ with 32's, > party horns, multiple celestes, etc. ... BUT, if the stated purpose is > to REPRODUCE something (as far as the limitations of present technology > will allow), then why all the UNauthentic stuff? > > Case in point: in a pipe organ, the voicing of one stop CAN affect the > voicing of another stop to a CERY MINOR degree, depending on proximity, > type of windchest, etc. ... but pipe organ stops are NOT yoked together, > EVER (well, OK, monkey quints, and Ludwigtones ... but how many monkey > quints and Ludwigtones have you seen LATELY?). You voice the 8' > Principal, then you voice the 8' Chimney Flute, etc. etc. etc. > > In older analog electronic organs, it WAS possible to set the LEVEL of > each stop individually, EVEN THOUGH the stops were UNIFIED. > > That's the first point. > > Second point: ORGAN LITERATURE *demands* certain stops in certain places > at certain pitches, whether the organ is large or small, electronic or > pipe. > > The Cromorne needs to be OPPOSITE the Cornet, NOT on the same manual > with it (if there's only one Cornet). > > The Swell Oboe needs to be at 8', NOT 4', if you want to USE it for > anything ... and there needs to BE a Swell Oboe. > > One of my PET peeves is 3 and 4 manual electronics with ONE 8' principal > ANYWHERE in the manuals. WHY??? > > If electronics are gonna mimic pipe organs, then ... they should ... > (light bulb lights over Macungie, Hillsboro, etc. ... DING!) MIMIC PIPE > ORGANS (chuckle). > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: RE: Notre Dame - Paris From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:12:56 -0400   >Think how many carillons we would never hear were it not for the player mechanisms. How nice it would be for the organ in a tourist church to = play on the quarter hour just after the carillon had announced the time!   As a carillonneur, I should know the answer to this, but I don't. One = hears carillons playing in Amsterdam hourly, at least. Holland, of course, has many carillons, some dating from the 17th and 18th centuries. This is = where the instrument originated: the sound carries very well across flat = terrain. Consequently, Holland also has many fine carillonneurs. Yet I really = wonder whether they play every hour! This would be a full-time job. On the = other hand, the playing one hears is elaborate and artistic. A machine to = capture these nuances would need to be very sophisticated. It's a car cry from = the 'Westminster Chime.' I have trouble believing it's human, and I also have trouble believing it's not human. How is it done?   With regard to this present discussion, I am pleasantly surprised that tourists *want* to hear the organ as a part of their visit to a church. = If this is true, it's news to those in charge of most American fanes, who = tend to lay down the law that when the building is open to the public during = the day, the organ must remain silent.      
(back) Subject: RE: Notre Dame - Paris From: "Harry Martenas" <hmartena@columbiapa.org> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:15:27 -0400   Robert Colasacco wrote:   > Interesting, you'd rather a machine play the organ than here a > recording of an organist playing. You may as well put a gun to > your head because you're selling yourself down the river to a > computer or machine to replace you. RBC   RBC - without wanting to cause confrontation, I don't understand your reasoning.   If I am visiting a church or hall with a notable organ, I would *MUCH* rather hear the organ played by MIDI/sequencer than listen to an audio recording of the organ - ASSUMING the sequence was created by a "real" organist. Maybe this is where the confusion lies - I am *not* advocating that the computer simply scans sheet music and starts playing. The sequencer records every note, note duration, registration, tempo, swell shoe movement, etc. of the original *organist.* This, of course, is what happens when the organ is played live, anyway. In addition to opening the valves under the pipes, the chain of events is recorded for later playback.   Ironically, this system is used in some cases to produce audio recordings. The organist "records" the piece whenever it is convenient. Late at night, when the tourists are gone, traffic noise subsides, and the air conditioning can be turned off, the recording engineers start the sequencer, and make an audio recording of the piece, which in turn is burned to CD. You may well have some CDs that were recorded in this fashion. Do you object to them because they're "played by machine?"   From an artistic standpoint, what's the difference? Both are recordings of an artist at work. One stores the recording as an audio file, the other stores the recording as a sequence of note-on/note-off commands. The former attempts to reproduce the sound of the organ via loudspeakers and amplifiers. The latter plays the pipes - more-or-less exactly as the original performer did. Personally, if I were physically present in the same room as the organ, I would rather hear the pipes,   Which raises another point - any modern organ mechanism controlled by electricity is effectively "played by machine" - the organ's operating system takes input from the organist via the keyboards, and translates it to on-off commands to play the pipes. So are you saying all such organs are invalid?   Listening to the Skinner at Biltmore "played by machine" was, for me, much more satisfying than listening to an inferior sound system - or SILENCE.   Harry Martenas      
(back) Subject: Re: Prices for practice pipe organs From: "Teah" <teahzg@charter.net> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:18:18 -0500   Interesting thread. And what would be an average ball park figure for an organ like this ? It's nice to know that organ builders will be happy to rebuild an old organ or install a "stock model" new organ ... that is = after all their business, but at what cost to the client? What about routine maintenance costs?   I guess what I am asking is: real numbers please   Cheers,   Tim    
(back) Subject: Re: Notre Dame - Paris From: "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:23:17 -0400   That's the point I was trying to make.   Tom Hoehn, Organist Tampa Theatre, Tampa, FL First United Methodist Church, Clearwater, FL CFTOS/Manasota/OATOS/HiloBay/CIC-ATOS http://theatreorgans.com/tomhoehn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Martenas" <hmartena@columbiapa.org> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 10:15 AM Subject: RE: Notre Dame - Paris     > Robert Colasacco wrote: > > > Interesting, you'd rather a machine play the organ than here a > > recording of an organist playing. You may as well put a gun to > > your head because you're selling yourself down the river to a > > computer or machine to replace you. RBC > > RBC - without wanting to cause confrontation, I don't understand your > reasoning. > > If I am visiting a church or hall with a notable organ, I would *MUCH* > rather hear the organ played by MIDI/sequencer than listen to an audio > recording of the organ - ASSUMING the sequence was created by a "real" > organist. Maybe this is where the confusion lies - I am *not* advocating > that the computer simply scans sheet music and starts playing. The > sequencer records every note, note duration, registration, tempo, swell > shoe movement, etc. of the original *organist.* This, of course, is what > happens when the organ is played live, anyway. In addition to opening > the valves under the pipes, the chain of events is recorded for later > playback. > > Ironically, this system is used in some cases to produce audio > recordings. The organist "records" the piece whenever it is convenient. > Late at night, when the tourists are gone, traffic noise subsides, and > the air conditioning can be turned off, the recording engineers start > the sequencer, and make an audio recording of the piece, which in turn > is burned to CD. You may well have some CDs that were recorded in this > fashion. Do you object to them because they're "played by machine?" > > From an artistic standpoint, what's the difference? Both are recordings > of an artist at work. One stores the recording as an audio file, the > other stores the recording as a sequence of note-on/note-off commands. > The former attempts to reproduce the sound of the organ via loudspeakers > and amplifiers. The latter plays the pipes - more-or-less exactly as the > original performer did. Personally, if I were physically present in the > same room as the organ, I would rather hear the pipes, > > Which raises another point - any modern organ mechanism controlled by > electricity is effectively "played by machine" - the organ's operating > system takes input from the organist via the keyboards, and translates > it to on-off commands to play the pipes. So are you saying all such > organs are invalid? > > Listening to the Skinner at Biltmore "played by machine" was, for me, > much more satisfying than listening to an inferior sound system - or > SILENCE. > > Harry Martenas > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen available From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:25:49 -0400   This is a multi-part message in MIME format.   ------=3D_NextPart_000_003F_01C2450F.4A980D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Dear Nathan, If Larry decides to not take the organ this weekend I'll let you =3D know.=3D20 Paul ----- Original Message -----=3D20 From: J. Nathan=3D20 To: PipeChat=3D20 Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 11:37 PM Subject: Re: Allen available     Good luck to you both...hope the instrument finds a caring home! If = =3D PA wasn't a tad too far from Kentucky, I would be there tomorrow!!   JNathan   Okay, after this all shakes out - ask the organ if it might like a =3D home in the great nation of Exton, PA and then we might, just might, =3D talk. Peace.   Dear Nathan, I am located in Schnecksville, Pa. 5 miles north of =3D Allentown, Pa. = =3D Paul   ------=3D_NextPart_000_003F_01C2450F.4A980D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3D3DContent-Type content=3D3D"text/html; =3D charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D3D"MSHTML 5.50.4611.1300" name=3D3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear Nathan,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If Larry =3D decides to not=3D20 take the organ this weekend I'll let you know. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial=3D20 size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= =3D p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp= =3D ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D20 Paul</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=3D20 style=3D3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =3D black"><B>From:</B>=3D20 <A title=3D3Djnatpat@infi.net href=3D3D"mailto:jnatpat@infi.net">J. =3D Nathan</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =3D title=3D3Dpipechat@pipechat.org=3D20 href=3D3D"mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org">PipeChat</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 15, 2002 = =3D 11:37=3D20 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Allen =3D available</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Palatino Linotype">Good luck to you both...hope the = =3D   instrument finds a caring home!&nbsp;&nbsp; If PA wasn't a tad too far = =3D from=3D20 Kentucky,&nbsp; I would be there tomorrow!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Palatino Linotype"><BR>JNathan</FONT><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3D3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D3D2>Okay, after this all = =3D shakes out - ask=3D20 the organ if it might like a home in the great nation of Exton, PA =3D and then=3D20 we might, just might, talk.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =3D Peace.</FONT><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3D3Dltr=3D20 style=3D3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = =3D BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>Dear Nathan,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3D3DArial size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am = =3D located in=3D20 Schnecksville, Pa. 5 miles north of Allentown, =3D Pa.&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=3D20 face=3D3DArial=3D20 =3D size=3D3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs= =3D p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp= =3D ;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;= =3D &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=3D nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=3D2= 0 =3D Paul</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>   ------=3D_NextPart_000_003F_01C2450F.4A980D20--    
(back) Subject: RE: Notre Dame - Paris From: "Emmons, Paul" <pemmons@wcupa.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:39:26 -0400   In that case, the organist who made the recording needs to climb onto the pay-per-pay bandwagon in which the rest of the "music industry" is reveling these days.   If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.   Meanwhile (fresh from yesterday evening's mass for the Feast of the Assumption at S. Clement's with half-a-dozen hymns led as richly as always by Peter Richard Conte in person), I'm not about to add necrophilia to my numerous other weirdnesses. I.e, no way am I going to get a thrill out of singing to the accompaniment of a dead machine-- whether a recording or an organ-playing automaton. In fact, I will refuse outright to sing in such = a situation. History is full of backwater churches forced into such an expedient (a barrel organ) out of necessity, but there is nothing "enterprising" at all in doing so just to save a few bucks. Modern life offers too many other things a person can do besides go to church. Make = it real or fergetaboutit.   I am reminded of a cartoon showing a college classroom. The professor had to miss class, so he tape recorded his lecture and set up the machine on a table in front, with speakers. On all the students desks were other tape recorders, with microphones. Class in session. Not a human in sight.    
(back) Subject: cornopean From: "COLASACCO, ROBERT" <RCOLASACCO@popcouncil.org> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:19:32 -0400   Is Cornopean still used in building organs today? My recollection of the only one I was aware of hearing and playing was on my High School Organ in duh Bronx. I remember it was quite a powerful yet delightful stop. I've = not seen it on stop lists I've observed in print of recent design. Digging = back in my memory--what's left of it--it seemed like both a good solo stop and chorus stop.   Robert B. Colasacco Administrative Assistant/Secretary Distinguished Colleagues Population Council One Dag Hammarskjold Plaza New York, NY 10017 Direct Telephone: (212) 339-0685 Main Telephone: (212) 339-0500 Fax: (212) 755-6052 e-mail: rcolasacco@popcouncil.org Visit our web site: www.popcouncil.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Notre Dame - Paris From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:21:45 -0400   on 8/16/02 10:39 AM, Emmons, Paul at pemmons@wcupa.edu wrote:   I.e, no way am I going to get a thrill out of > singing to the accompaniment of a dead machine-- whether a recording or = an > organ-playing automaton. In fact, I will refuse outright to sing in = such a > situation.   Sure, but that's not the situation in Notre Dame. The organ isn't playing hymns there and the tourists aren't singing. The organ, through the mechanical playback of an original performance, is playing improvisations and/or organ literature. At least that's what I thought was being = described in the earlier post.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Automatic carillons - DELETE IF NOT INTERESTED From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:29:13 -0700   Actually, Paul, it's an ancient system, and rather primitive. The tunes are "pinned" on an enormous wooden drum with wooden pegs, sorta like a music box drum on steroids. When the drum turns, the pegs strike the levers connected to the clappers of the bells.   I imagine that touch-sensitive digital technology HAS been applied to this in some places, which would allow the bells to be played loud or soft, at least.   Cheers,   Bud