PipeChat Digest #3076 - Tuesday, August 20, 2002
 
Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
John Gorrie and Apalachicola
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by "G. Deboer" <gdeboer@bluemarble.net>
Singing "Lustfully"
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Announcing Hymns
  by <RVScara@aol.com>
Re: Hymn Intros--Be creative
  by "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net>
Re: RTR FM, Perth, Australia
  by "Bob North" <bnorth@intergate.ca>
Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Literature search
  by "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com>
RE: Definitely NOT electronic organs!
  by <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk>
RE: Singing "Lustfully"
  by <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:46:13 +1200   E.Power Biggs was saying exactly that so many years ago - the building is the most important stop in any organ. I've never heard your Harvard Flentrop, or indeed any Flentrop at all outside recordings, but Biggs's old recordings surely gain a great deal = from the reverberation evident on the recordings. Can anyone tell me about that building, how much the sound there is actually reflected (deliberate pun) = in the old Biggs recordings, and what the organ sounds like close to, at the console? And how is that organ regarded these days? Ross -----Original Message----- From: RonSeverin@aol.com <RonSeverin@aol.com> To: pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 1:07 PM Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!     >Dear Colin: > >Colin wrote: >Let's say I visit Holland and hear Alkmaar. I play in a church in the Uk >which has a poor acoustic; the organ crammed in a chamber and the = resonance >virtually nil. I go to an organ builder and say, "I've just heard the = most >wonderful organ. Do you think you could make pipes which sound like = Alkmaar >and put them in a new organ for my church". > >You went on to say that in a dead room Alkmaar would sound terrible. >My point exactly. It was much easier to create a great sound in churches >built of polished stone and great acoustics. It made the organ builder >seem to be a true genius. You also went on to say that these same >pipes and organ would sound disappointing in a dead room. I agree >100%. No amount of voicing or vintage pipes for the same size building >which is dead, would capture the majesty so evident in a live room. >The builder then is at the mercy of a room without any mercy whatever. >The acoustics of the room in otherwords make or break a great organ. >In fact it is one of the most necessary stops on an organ, either you >have it or you don't. > >I knew that, but it was nice to hear you say it too. :) > >Ron Severin > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:48:35 +1200   And you can even just shout and stamp and clap if you can't sing! You need someone with good ears to listen, that's the key. Ross   >Probably one of the best ways to listen to a room is to sing in >it. The human voice can do many things, and listening to the way >the room responds to singing is probably more effecient than >dragging all sorts of electronic this and that into a room, and >putting on a head set. > >Just something that we do, and have been doing for quite a while. > > >jon bertschinger      
(back) Subject: John Gorrie and Apalachicola From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:41:10 -0500   The Henry Erben is still alive and well, but the Pilcher is no longer a Pilcher at Trinity, Apalachicola - it has been incorporated into another organ from Ohio (cannot remember the name, but I reported this to PIPORG-L a little over a year ago after a visit there with Randy Runyon). It was very disappointing, but was "unfinished" at the time.   I never played the Pilcher, but did do the Erben the Sunday I was confirmed in the Episcopal Church several years back. Neat-o!   Gorrie was a vestryman at Trinity, and down the road from the church is a small museum in his honor. The church is very charming, with huge shuttered windows. The story told me is that the building was built up North and floated on logs down to Apalach, sort of a pre-pre-fab thing.   Dr. Bedford Watkins, the organist, graciously provided the pictures and stoplist for David to do the web page for the AGO site.   Stan, aren't you the organist at the Presbyterian Church in Marianna? You played a funeral for the husband of a dear friend of mine.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com          
(back) Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:45:16 -0400       jon bertschinger wrote:   > Probably one of the best ways to listen to a room is to sing in > it. The human voice can do many things, and listening to the way > the room responds to singing is probably more effecient than > dragging all sorts of electronic this and that into a room, and > putting on a head set. > > Just something that we do, and have been doing for quite a while. > > jon bertschinger   Hi Jon, One of the most poignant moments I have ever had concerning the sound of an unfamiliar room came from Thomas Murray as he gave his pre concert lecture at Severance Hall. He was asked what he does to prepare for giving a recital on an organ he has never seen in a room he has never played in before. It was dead quiet as he stood to answer the question. He said "the first thing I always do is this": He clapped one time. He went on to tell us how that one sound gave him a great deal of information to help him decide on registrations, expression levels, and other adjustments that he would use to make the music sound its best in that room. As in all such musical decisions, he was making an educated guess. From what I heard him play later, he guesses pretty darned good. Cheers Mike    
(back) Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: "G. Deboer" <gdeboer@bluemarble.net> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:50:04 -0500   It is agreed then, that when you don't have good acoustics it would break = a great organ or in other words it will sound terrible and is not worth listening to. That being the case (and the builder will already know this up front), why was the thing built at all ? Someone (who ?) needs to advice a congregation that no matter how much = they are going to spend on their "great" organ, it is never going to sound the way an organ should. A very difficult thing to do indeed and I'm sure not very popular with our pipe organ builders.   Gary   ----- Original Message ----- From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs!     > Dear Colin: > > Colin wrote: > Let's say I visit Holland and hear Alkmaar. I play in a church in the Uk > which has a poor acoustic; the organ crammed in a chamber and the resonance > virtually nil. I go to an organ builder and say, "I've just heard the = most > wonderful organ. Do you think you could make pipes which sound like Alkmaar > and put them in a new organ for my church". > > You went on to say that in a dead room Alkmaar would sound terrible. > My point exactly. It was much easier to create a great sound in churches > built of polished stone and great acoustics. It made the organ builder > seem to be a true genius. You also went on to say that these same > pipes and organ would sound disappointing in a dead room. I agree > 100%. No amount of voicing or vintage pipes for the same size building > which is dead, would capture the majesty so evident in a live room. > The builder then is at the mercy of a room without any mercy whatever. > The acoustics of the room in otherwords make or break a great organ. > In fact it is one of the most necessary stops on an organ, either you > have it or you don't. > > I knew that, but it was nice to hear you say it too. :) > > Ron Severin > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Singing "Lustfully" From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:19:51 -0500   Uh, depending on the hymn text (and, I guess, your religion) singing "lustily" is probably better than singing "lustfully"!!!   ;>) Dennis Steckley ********************* "You will be surprised at how much more lustfully the people will sing if they are excited about the hymn that is being introduced."        
(back) Subject: Announcing Hymns From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:21:35 EDT     --part1_17.2d0b6855.2a9301af_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   before this line of interest, to some, gets cut off:   In the RC realm, vs other denominations, parishioners don't sing out of habit; they are still working on it. The current hymnal we use has 550 = hymns and 200+ psalms/ acclamations/ Mass responses arranged in sections by = season and 46 other categories, not in alphabetical order (except in the = Index.) Non- RC church members might quickly recognize and locate most hymns from = an organ intro; not many RCs. I use 2-3 verses of the four (Entrance, Presentation (Offertory), Communion, and Closing) hymns. Tight time = factors here, clearing the parking lot for the next Mass. Want people to sing? = Make it easy and appealing. I don't repeat hymns until 6 - 8 weekends pass; = at least the music changes! A mix of oldies and contemporary related, if possible, to the Testament readings. Tempo amd key adjusted to the = time, crowd, weather, and whatever. But, they need to know what/where the music = is if I expect them to join in, and they do when they know what's coming up. I see nothing liturgically improper or distasteful in announcing hymn numbers, considering everything else that's announced. RC "Liturgy = experts" now seem primarily interested in creating new ritual to go with the = fertile mounds of choral music produced monthly, no longer fostering = congregational singing. The pendulum swinging back, pre-Vatican II? Keeping this on topic, how about: "Can you get one of those boxes on = the organ and record some hymns on disc so we can turn the organ on from the =   sanctuary, with one of those remote controls, when you aren't around!" = At least the organ stays! Do I get residuals?   --part1_17.2d0b6855.2a9301af_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial Black" LANG=3D"0">before this line of interest, to = some,&nbsp; gets cut off:<BR> <BR> In the RC realm, <U>vs</U> other denominations,&nbsp; parishioners don't = sing out of habit; they are still working on it.&nbsp; The current hymnal = we use has 550 hymns and 200+ psalms/ acclamations/ Mass responses = arranged in sections by season and 46 other categories,&nbsp;&nbsp; not in = alphabetical order (except in the Index.)&nbsp;&nbsp; Non- RC church = members might quickly recognize and locate most hymns from an organ = intro;&nbsp; not&nbsp; many RCs.&nbsp;&nbsp; I use 2-3 verses of the four = (Entrance, Presentation (Offertory), Communion, and Closing) hymns. Tight = time factors here, clearing the parking lot for the next Mass.&nbsp; Want = people to sing? Make it easy and appealing. I don't repeat hymns = until&nbsp; 6 - 8&nbsp; weekends pass;&nbsp; at least the music = changes!&nbsp; A mix of oldies and contemporary related, if = possible,&nbsp; to the Testament&nbsp; readings.&nbsp; Tempo amd key = adjusted to the time, crowd, weather, and whatever. But,&nbsp; they need = to know what/where th I see nothing liturgically improper or distasteful in announcing hymn = numbers, considering everything else that's announced.&nbsp;&nbsp; RC = "Liturgy experts"&nbsp; now seem primarily interested in creating new = ritual to go with the fertile mounds of choral music produced monthly, no = longer&nbsp; fostering congregational singing.&nbsp; The pendulum&nbsp; = swinging back,&nbsp; pre-Vatican II?&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR> Keeping this on topic,&nbsp; how about:&nbsp; "Can you get&nbsp; one of = those boxes on the organ&nbsp; and&nbsp; record some hymns on disc so we = can turn the organ on from the sanctuary, with one of those remote = controls,&nbsp; when you aren't around!"&nbsp; At least the organ = stays!&nbsp; Do I get residuals?</FONT></HTML>   --part1_17.2d0b6855.2a9301af_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Hymn Intros--Be creative From: "Paul Soulek" <soulek@frontiernet.net> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:57:38 -0500   I couldn't agree more---adding one more point to hymn playing: change the registration! Base registrations on what the hymn text says. If it's a strong sense of "praise", don't be afraid to create a sound that says "praise!" (mixtures, reeds, solo trumpet?) Softer texts require softer registration. Many, many, many, many organists do NOT change settings much at all. Our organist used to be a 2-piston person. Piston 1 was for soft music (pre-service and offering), and Piston 2 was for hymn singing and the postlude. Now I've gotten her to try switching manuals, and other things like that. She really enjoys the variety, and the congregation now gets registration changes more than once a month (when I play). I am frustrated when I attend a service where the music is "marginal"; thought is not put into the music, and things are "bland" to say the least. We have organs with tons of stops, and people should hear more than two settings. Worship/music workshops always stress "being creative", but many of those suggestions never get past the workshop. Hands-on learning is much more effective, in my opinion. Talking to our organist was the thing that got her to change registrations occasionally.   My two cents.   Paul     RMB10@aol.com wrote: > > Several people have been talking about "playthroughs" vs. abbreviated > intros for hymns. I was taught that a complete playthrough was only > necessary when introducing a new hymn or a non-familiar hymn, and that > for all intensive purposes, a shortened intro was sufficient. As I > have gotten older, (I'm the ripe old age of 32 now!) I have even > gotten out of playing the first/last line intro, and have gotten > creative, using pieces based on the hymn that will be sung, or playing > a fanfare and then doing a segue into the hymn intro. For example, > when singing CWM Rhondda, I play opening part of the Manz arrangement > and at an appropriate place jump to the last line, which ends with the > bold statement of the last couple of measures. When singing Nun > Danket, I use Virgil's Bach transcription, transposing into whatever > key needed--Eb or F. I have also used the Oliphant Chukerb > Ellacombe. Since I have been a free-lance musician for the past 4 1/2 > years, since leaving Calvary Church, Charlotte, NC, it has given me > the opportunity to see what many churches in the two Carolinas do or > have done for hymns. Being a guest, I can usually get away with doing > my own thing, and it's amazing to hear the comments from congregants. > I often hear that they are much more in the mood to sing a hymn when > there is some sort of exciting introduction, rather than a standard > playthrough or first/last line introduction to a hymn that they know. > I would encourage other list members to do some creative things with > the hymn introduction. You will be surprised at how much more > lustfully the people will sing if they are excited about the hymn that > is being introduced. > > Just some thoughts..... > > Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: RTR FM, Perth, Australia From: "Bob North" <bnorth@intergate.ca> Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:49:09 -0700     >I received the following from Live365 and forward it for the information >of fellow RTR FM fans, FYI. Regards.........Bob > > >"Greetings Internet Radio Fans - > >Thanks to the LOUD outcry surrounding the royalty rates set by the >Librarian of Congress, three U.S. Representatives have introduced the >Internet Radio Fairness Act. > >This bill is in the House of Representatives currently, and needs your >support! > >We need each and every one of our listeners and broadcasters to FAX >CONGRESS in support of the Internet Radio Fairness Act. > >Feel free to use this link: > >http://www.voiceofwebcasters.org/smallwebfax.htm > >It will take two minutes, and it costs nothing. These two minutes will >help preserve the diversity of choices that Internet Radio offers. > >Then, visit the Live365 activist page for more ways you can help. > >http://www.live365.com/carp/activist.html > >We have a window of time to make an impact. Speak now!! > >Thank you! > >betty r. >senior editor | live365" >    
(back) Subject: Re: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 02:29:24 EDT   Dear Gary:   You asked the question why was it built. The answer to that question is if ABC Co. declined, CBA would so why shoot yourself in the foot. You do the best you can with it, and hope for the best on the next one. An organbuilder runs into all sorts of situations, but it's natural to = want to place your insturment where it will sound its best, and this is not always possible. The room does have last say in the matter. Remember, You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear?   Ron Severin  
(back) Subject: Literature search From: "Tom Hoehn" <thoehn@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 03:12:56 -0400   I am looking for a copy of :   A Study in Theater Organ Style by Don Baker, published by Peerless Press. I usd to have a copy of this tome but lost it in my divorce 2 1/2 years ago. Any information would be greatly appreciated.   -- Tom Hoehn, Organist http://theatreorgans.com/tomhoehn Tampa Theatre, Tampa, FL First United Methodist Church, Clearwater, FL CFTOS/Manasota/OATOS/HiloBay/CIC-ATOS    
(back) Subject: RE: Definitely NOT electronic organs! From: <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:49:06 +0100   A-ha!   Now we've come full circle in our discussions.....more heat than light = in fact.   We have recently discussed GREAT sounding organs in relatively poor = rooms, but as I see it, the truly great romantic organ builders were = modifying the speech of pipes (and reeds) in such a way that they were = surpressing certain tonal elements and emphasising others.....in fact, = doing the job of a non-existent resonance.=20   It is why I pointed out that (here we go!) many electronics can sound = good in the worst rooms, beause it is possible to replicate the sound of = an instrument in a good room and build in resonance.   The dilemma for organ builders is not so much a lack of "bloom", which = can be got around (Skinner, Wurlitzer, Harrison & Harrison etc), but = rooms in which sound absorbency is very high. That requires either the = big energy of high wind pressures or less powerful antiphonal = divisions....the very essence of much USA organ-building AND FOR GOOD = REASON.   The only other way around it is the Snetzler/Samuel Green = approach.....low-pressure pipes which sing very gently but with fairly = hefty basses to compensate for the dry acoustic.   However, this was not the point I was making or the thread I was = expecting.   I was merely wondering whether an electronic/digital means of acoustic = testing might work better for organ builders than all that white noise, = pink noise, green noise or any other kind of noise.....clapping and = singing is allowed. (I always clap before I play in a strange = building....it may be the only applause I will hear!)   In its crudest form, this "test" may just be a recording made inside = different types of instrument and then re-played in the room in which a = new organ is being contemplated.....this is not a terribly scientific = method, but it would work to some extent and give an instant grasp of = the likely outcome. This method alone would have convinced many, many = organ advisors that the re-creation of the North German sound = (especially) was not really possible in the majority of rooms.   Incidentally, it is not just a question of resonance. I know of many = resonant churches in which neo-Baroque organs (very, very good ones) do = not sound like their antique German counterparts. We have a few in our = UK cathedrals, but they sound like what they are.....classical style = instruments placed in a large but confused acoustic. This is not the = same thing as listening to a West End Baroque Organ in a tall building = with clean resonance.   Anyway, we could go on forever and get nowhere.....I just wondered if = any organ builders/tonal directors or voicers had ever considered a more = controlled and (dare I say it) scientific approach. If they prefer = firing cannons, who am I to suggest otherwise?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     And a PS for Ron Severin:   Even by the standards of Holland and North Germany, Alkmaar and Haarlem = ARE works of real genius.....nothing else can touch them for quality of = sound.    
(back) Subject: RE: Singing "Lustfully" From: <cmys13085@blueyonder.co.uk> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:50:48 +0100   Speak for yourself....       -----Original Message----- From: "pipechat@pipechat.org" <pipechat@pipechat.org> on behalf of = "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Sent: 20 August 2002 02:19 To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Singing "Lustfully"   Uh, depending on the hymn text (and, I guess, your religion) singing "lustily" is probably better than singing "lustfully"!!!   ;>) Dennis Steckley ********************* "You will be surprised at how much more lustfully the people will sing if they are excited about the hymn that is being introduced."         "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org