PipeChat Digest #3284 - Saturday, December 7, 2002
 
Romantic notions
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Steinmeyer, was translation help
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Big Organ/Orchestra for MESSIAH
  by "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Awestruck in Atlanta - Peachtree Road U.M.C.
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Romantic notions From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:02:44 +0000 (GMT)   --0-1802649450-1039237364=3D:49731 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit     Hello, Mmmmmmmmm! Well....as someone who plays an absolutely beautiful, robust, = neo-classical organ, I am not going to agree am I? The important thing = is, this particular organ is in Dutch style........warm, singing and bold = of tone. The organ reform movement has been spectacularly important in taking the = instrument back to first principles and sound design. Choice of action is, = perhaps secondary in importance, but the tonal aspects are vitally = important to proper organ design and tonal structure. It is the same = legacy which inspired Cavaille-Coll, Schulze (to a lesser extent), G = Donald Harrison, T C Lewis et al..........names which will remain at the = forefront of organ matters for many centuries to come. Ron reminds us however, that many beautiful, important and highly = significant instruments have been ruined or destroyed by the attentions of = "classical revival" organists/organ builders.......I quite agree with him. = I cringe to think what may have happened to St.George's Hall, Liverpool if = the organ reformers had got to it! However, a few correction to what Ron states about the German Romantic = organ. Firstly, wind pressures were quite low to very low.......the power comes = from the "build-up", the extensive chorus-work and, above all, increased = scaling. The reeds are usually quite disappointing and thin in tone. Secondly, swell boxes were virtually unknown in Germany before 1860 or so, = and even then, they were fairly ineffective....hence the Rollschweller, = which adds or subtracts registers as a means of expression. So, in = essence, the true romantic organs of Germany before about 1870 (perhaps = later) do not have the sort of swell expression we would expect in an = instrument of this period. Thirdly, there is a pronounced shift away from classical design in German = Organs of the 19th century, but not with regards voicing methods or = chorus-work. The shift is to do with the relative power of each division. = Very loud Great and Pedal, a more restrained Swell (or a more restrained = unenclosed division) and then one or two still softer unenclosed divisions = such as a Fernwerk or Echo.......radically different from the = French/English/American concept, where the Swell Organ tends to be all = important. Also, I would ask Ron to listen CAREFULLY to many Dutch instruments from = the Baroque period. Bold, warm, noble and far from lacking in = "middle"......IN THE ACOUSTICS IN WHICH THEY ARE PLACED!!!!!! As for thin snarling reeds, I recalll playing a wonderful old Dutch organ, = and it struck me that the reeds were PERFECT IMITATIONS of old Baroque = instruments such as the Dulzian and Schalmei.....in fact, the original = Imitative Reeds par excellence. In the UK we have had 50 years + of organ reform instruments.....some of = them are very, very beautiful instruments. Others are a complete travesty! Since St.Giles, Edinburgh, we got Southwell Minster, Portsmouth and = Chelmsford Cathedrals in the UK.....all new instruments of a substantial = size. We also have a new Marcussen in Manchester (Bridgewater Hall) and = the Klais at Birmingham Symphony Hall. There is a massively expensive = restoration due at the Royal Albert Hall and one going on with the mighty = Schulze at St.Bart's, Armley. God know where the money is coming from!! Ron is perfectly entitled to a view, whatever that view may be. However, = "knocking" great work by any organ builder in any style is simply not fair = or justified. There is room in the musical world for many different styles = of organ building....the very source of our endless fascination in this = absurd and complex instrument, Regards, Colin Mitchell UK RonSeverin@aol.com wrote:     IMO these organs by Steinmeyer may be infact be right in the ballpark musically........   .......The organ reform movement has indeed run its course......   We've had over 30 years of some really whimpy, middle and bottom starved organs. I'm glad that's over with, and hopefully for good.         --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits = your needs   --0-1802649450-1039237364=3D:49731 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   <P>Hello, <P>Mmmmmmmmm! <P>Well....as someone who plays an absolutely beautiful, robust, = neo-classical organ, I am not going to agree am I?&nbsp; The important = thing is, this particular organ is in Dutch style........warm, singing and = bold of tone. <P>The organ reform movement has been spectacularly important in taking = the instrument back to first principles and sound design. Choice of action = is, perhaps secondary in importance, but the tonal aspects are vitally = important to proper organ design and tonal structure. It is the same = legacy which inspired Cavaille-Coll, Schulze (to a lesser extent), G = Donald Harrison, T C Lewis et al..........names which will remain at the = forefront of organ matters for many centuries to come. <P>Ron reminds us however, that many beautiful, important and highly = significant instruments have been ruined or destroyed by the attentions of = "classical revival" organists/organ builders.......I quite agree with him. = I cringe to think what may have happened to St.George's Hall, Liverpool if = the organ reformers had got to it! <P>However, a few correction to what Ron states about the German Romantic = organ. <P>Firstly, wind pressures were quite low to very low.......the power = comes from the "build-up", the extensive chorus-work and, above all, = increased scaling. The reeds are usually quite disappointing and thin in = tone. <P>Secondly, swell boxes were virtually unknown in Germany before 1860 or = so, and even then, they were fairly ineffective....hence the = Rollschweller, which adds or subtracts registers as a means of = expression.&nbsp; So, in essence, the true romantic organs of Germany = before about 1870 (perhaps later) do not have the sort of swell expression = we would expect in an instrument of this period. <P>Thirdly, there is a pronounced shift away from classical design in = German Organs of the 19th century, but not with regards voicing methods or = chorus-work. The shift is to do with the relative power of each division. = Very loud Great and Pedal, a more restrained Swell (or&nbsp;a more = restrained unenclosed division) and then one or two still softer = unenclosed divisions such as a Fernwerk or Echo.......radically different = from the French/English/American concept, where the Swell Organ tends to = be all important. <P>Also, I would ask Ron to listen CAREFULLY to many Dutch instruments = from the Baroque period. Bold, warm, noble and far from lacking in = "middle"......IN THE ACOUSTICS IN WHICH THEY ARE PLACED!!!!!! <P>As for thin snarling reeds, I recalll playing a wonderful old Dutch = organ, and it struck me that the reeds were PERFECT IMITATIONS of old = Baroque instruments such as the Dulzian and Schalmei.....in fact, the = original Imitative Reeds par excellence. <P>In the UK we have had 50 years + of organ reform instruments.....some = of them are very, very beautiful instruments. Others are a complete = travesty! <P>Since St.Giles, Edinburgh, we got Southwell Minster, Portsmouth and = Chelmsford Cathedrals in the UK.....all new instruments of a substantial = size. We also have a new Marcussen in Manchester (Bridgewater Hall) and = the Klais at Birmingham Symphony Hall. There is a massively expensive = restoration due at the Royal Albert Hall and one going on with the mighty = Schulze at St.Bart's, Armley. <P>God know where the money is coming from!! <P>Ron is perfectly entitled to a view, whatever that view may be. = However, "knocking" great work by any organ builder in any style is simply = not fair or justified. There is room in the musical world for many = different styles of organ building....the very source of our endless = fascination in this absurd and complex instrument, <P>Regards, <P>Colin Mitchell <P>UK <P>&nbsp;<B><I>RonSeverin@aol.com</I></B> wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> <P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR>IMO these organs by = Steinmeyer may be infact be right in the<BR>ballpark = musically........&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">&nbsp;.......The organ reform movement<BR>has indeed = run its course......</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3Darial,helvetica><FONT = face=3DArial lang=3D0 size=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF"><BR><BR>&nbsp;We've = had over 30 years of some really whimpy, middle and bottom<BR>starved = organs. I'm glad that's over with, and hopefully for = good.<BR></FONT>&nbsp;</P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><p><p><br><hr size=3D1><a = href=3D"http://uk.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_xtra/?http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mai= l_storage.html"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">With Yahoo! Mail you = can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your = needs</font></b></a><br> --0-1802649450-1039237364=3D:49731--  
(back) Subject: Re: Steinmeyer, was translation help From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:19:12 +0000 (GMT)   --0-1065034430-1039238352=3D:43043 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit     Hello, Holland go Electro-Pneumatic? Over Sweelinck's grave!!!!! Just about every church has an organ of historic importance, an "Organ = Mafia" who fiercely defend and preserve them, and exceptionally = intellectual organists who revere them. Nowhere in the world is "authenticity" and "restoration" taken quite so = seriously as a general rule. The day Haarlem goes electro-pneumatic is the day I cancel my annual = holiday! Shame on you John! :) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> wrote:It is confidently = expected here that the same trend .......(Electric/EP action) ..........will start to manifest itself = even in countries like Holland, Denmark and Germany within the next four or five years.             --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits = your needs   --0-1065034430-1039238352=3D:43043 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   <P>Hello, <P>Holland go Electro-Pneumatic?&nbsp; Over Sweelinck's grave!!!!! <P>Just about every church has an organ of historic importance, an "Organ = Mafia" who fiercely defend and preserve them, and exceptionally = intellectual organists who revere them. <P>Nowhere in the world is "authenticity" and "restoration" taken quite so = seriously as a general rule. <P>The day Haarlem goes electro-pneumatic is the day I cancel my annual = holiday! <P>Shame on you John!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; :) <P>Regards, <P>&nbsp; <P>Colin Mitchell UK <P>&nbsp; <P>&nbsp;<B><I>"John L. Speller" &lt;jlspeller@mindspring.com&gt;</I></B> = wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = PADDING-LEFT: 5px">It is confidently expected here that the same<BR>trend = .......(Electric/EP action) ..........will start to manifest itself even = in countries like<BR>Holland, Denmark and Germany within the next four or = five<BR>years.<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><p><p><br><hr size=3D1><a = href=3D"http://uk.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_xtra/?http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mai= l_storage.html"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">With Yahoo! Mail you = can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your = needs</font></b></a><br> --0-1065034430-1039238352=3D:43043--  
(back) Subject: Re: Big Organ/Orchestra for MESSIAH From: "MARAUDER" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 00:01:20 -0500   > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not = understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.   --MS_Mac_OE_3122064080_13092189_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit   Can you find the old Sir Malcom Sargent recording with the Huddersfield (England) Choral Society? Some years ago I had the thrill of stnading on the likely spot where Sargent stood when he conducted it!   It came out on monaural records, and the set I have is quite worn. I = do wonder if it's available otherwise.   I would likely not wish to do it that way; yet, it's thrilling in its = own way.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA   From: ProOrgo53@aol.com Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:15:17 EST To: PIPORG-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU, pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Big Organ/Orchestra for MESSIAH     Does anyone know of an available recording of MESSIAH (originating = anywhere on the globe) which includes a large choir, orchestra and quite a bit more organ registration than Handel had at his disposal?   During the first seven years of its life beginning in 1959, the 109-rank AEolian-Skinner which graces the Conference Chamber of the RLDS (Community of Christ) Auditorium here in Independence, Missouri was judiciously registered for the annual recording performances of MESSIAH. When we heard "Wonderful, Counselor, the Mighty God . . ." listeners also felt the organ supporting the orchestra and choir on those majestic chords.   Totally unforgettable (for a lifetime) are those cherished moments when, = on the downbeat of "Worthy is the Lamb" - the organ entered on low "D" with a plenum including the 32', 16', 8', & 4' Prinzipal + Mixture and, in November, 1966, the 8' Trompette of the pedal division was also added. = And, of course, the organ also faired well in all the choruses, encouraging the choir to sing with passion and great majesty, but none so much as the two named previously.   I probably own no less than 10 recordings of MESSIAH- all of which use either a Portativ organ (8 + 4 flutes!!!) or the Positiv section of a larger organ. And I know, of course, conductors are striving for authenticity (and should therefore limit their choirs to 24-or so - singers).   l have been unsuccessful in ever finding a recording which brings Handel = to life as I remember the performances of the early 60's here in = Independence, Missouri. If anyone knows of such a recording, please write me directly.   Dale Rider, MSM, CAGO Organist/Director of Music Ministries First Baptist Church (American) Kansas City, Missouri       --MS_Mac_OE_3122064080_13092189_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable   <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: Big Organ/Orchestra for MESSIAH</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> Can you find the old Sir Malcom Sargent recording with the Huddersfield = (En=3D gland) Choral Society? &nbsp;Some years ago I had the thrill of stnading = on =3D the likely spot where Sargent stood when he conducted it! &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It came out on monaural records, and the set I have is = q=3D uite worn. &nbsp;I do wonder if it's available otherwise. <BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I would likely not wish to do it that way; yet, it's = thr=3D illing in its own way.<BR> <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Karl E. Moyer<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Lancaster PA<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <B>From: </B>ProOrgo53@aol.com<BR> <B>Reply-To: </B>&quot;PipeChat&quot; &lt;pipechat@pipechat.org&gt;<BR> <B>Date: </B>Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:15:17 EST<BR> <B>To: </B>PIPORG-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU, pipechat@pipechat.org<BR> <B>Subject: </B>Big Organ/Orchestra for MESSIAH<BR> <BR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D3D"Arial">Does anyone know of = an availa=3D ble recording of MESSIAH (originating anywhere on the globe) which = includes =3D a large choir, orchestra and quite a bit more organ registration than Handel=3D had at his disposal?<BR> <BR> During the first seven years of its life beginning in 1959, the 109-rank = AE=3D olian-Skinner which graces the Conference Chamber of the RLDS (Community = of =3D Christ) Auditorium here in Independence, Missouri was judiciously = registered=3D for the annual recording performances of MESSIAH. When we heard = &quot;Wonde=3D rful, Counselor, the Mighty God . . .&quot; listeners also = <B><I>felt</I></B=3D ></FONT></FONT> the organ supporting the orchestra and choir on those = majest=3D ic chords. <BR> <BR> Totally unforgettable (for a lifetime) are those cherished moments when, = on=3D the downbeat of &quot;Worthy is the Lamb&quot; - the organ entered on low = &=3D quot;D&quot; with a plenum including the 32', 16', 8', &amp; 4' Prinzipal = + =3D Mixture and, in November, 1966, the 8' Trompette of the pedal division was = <=3D I><U>also</U></I> added. And, of course, the organ also faired well in all = t=3D he choruses, encouraging the choir to sing with passion and great majesty, = b=3D ut none so much as the two named previously. <BR> <BR> I probably own no less than 10 recordings of MESSIAH- all of which use = eith=3D er a Portativ organ (8 + 4 flutes!!!) &nbsp;or the Positiv section of a = larg=3D er organ. And I know, of course, conductors are striving for authenticity = (a=3D nd should therefore limit their choirs to 24-or so - singers). &nbsp;<BR> <BR> l have been unsuccessful in ever finding a recording which brings Handel = to=3D life as I remember the performances of the early 60's here in = Independence,=3D Missouri. If anyone knows of such a recording, please write me directly. = <B=3D R> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D3D"2">Dale Rider, </FONT><FONT SIZE=3D3D"1"><I>MSM, CAGO<BR> </I>Organist/Director of Music Ministries<BR> First Baptist Church (American)<BR> Kansas City, Missouri<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BODY> </HTML>     --MS_Mac_OE_3122064080_13092189_MIME_Part--    
(back) Subject: Re: Awestruck in Atlanta - Peachtree Road U.M.C. From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 06:22:08 +0000 (GMT)   --0-663637912-1039242128=3D:13978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit     Hello, Ron Severin will not like this instrument! All top and bottom, but no middle. :) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK Malcolm Wechsler <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote: A WHOLE BOOK!         --------------------------------- With Yahoo! Mail you can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits = your needs   --0-663637912-1039242128=3D:13978 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit   <P>Hello, <P>Ron Severin will not like this instrument! <P>All top and bottom, but no middle.&nbsp;&nbsp; :) <P>Regards, <P>Colin Mitchell UK&nbsp;&nbsp; <P>&nbsp;<B><I>Malcolm Wechsler &lt;manderusa@earthlink.net&gt;</I></B> = wrote: <P>A WHOLE BOOK!</P><p><p><br><hr size=3D1><a = href=3D"http://uk.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_xtra/?http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mai= l_storage.html"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">With Yahoo! Mail you = can get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your = needs</font></b></a><br> --0-663637912-1039242128=3D:13978--