PipeChat Digest #3320 - Tuesday, December 24, 2002
 
Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank
  by "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk>
RE: - Soundfonts att: Bruce
  by "Samuel Metzger" <samuel.metzger@christpreschurch.org>
Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
Re: Undulating Tierce
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Undulating Tierce
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank
  by <RonSeverin@aol.com>
Re: Undulating Tierce
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
IRC
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank From: "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 22:31:56 -0000   Hello Keith,   ----- Original Message ----- From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:42 AM   Some thoughts on this snip-wise (saves typing)   > I understand that, for the Tierce 1 3/5' > to form a proper Cornet, it must be tuned a perfect fifth. Therefore, = it > cannot be successfully derived from a unified rank.   Whether a Tierce is part of a Cornet, some other mixture or an independent stop it must be tuned to a perfect fifth. It is sometimes found as a = derived stop but it is so far out of tune as to be not satisfactory.   > I "think" that the intervals are flattened slightly in Well-Tempered tuning. > I'm not familiar enough with tuning to know if all the various intervals > (except the octaves, of course) are "tempered" to the same degree. I > understand that some undulating ranks are tuned slightly flat and others > slightly sharp.   Notes are adjusted to equal temperament (ET) by making all the intervals between adjacent notes equal percentage-wise. This results in a derived tierce being sharp (very) from the correct pitch by 14 cents (14% of a semitone) , and a derived quint flat (slightly) by 2 cents from the = correct pitch. This applies over the whole frequncy range.   > There are probably problems with this concept, but I'd like to ask if anybody > has tried this before with success. > > The recommendation was made to me to take an undulating rank and derive the > Tierce from it.   I can't see how this can work. For a musical effect a celeste would be detuned by an amount changing gradually from very roughly14 cents at the bottom of the keyboard to about 2 cents at the top, usually sharp but = could be flat. Whilst you could perhaps play tricks by using the quint at the = top and the tierce at the bottom of the keyboard range and also by using different octaves I think it unlikely the result would be musically satisfactory..   > 1. Is there a standard for how far off pitch a Celeste or Unda Maris is > tuned.   Not SFAIK. It is is usually tuned 'till it sounds right'. Perhaps 1 beat = per sec (bps) at the bottom of the keyboard to 2 or 3 at the top.   > 2. Is a Celeste rank actually in tune with itself - but simply each = note > being a fixed amout off tune from the rank with which it will be played?   It is not in tune with itself, because the amount of detune from equal temperament changes over the note range. It gradually increases in terms = of bps from bottom to top, but as a percentage it decreases.   > 3. In creating an undulating rank, is it possible to "detune" the undulating > rank such that its quint would be a perfect fifth from the rank with = which it > would be paired as a celeste. When played at the 1 3/5' pitch, it will form > a proper Tierce; when played at 8', it will undulate.   No, I don't think so. A derived quint is flat and a derived tierce is = sharp, so if you re-tune an ET tuned pipe to be a perfect fifth (ie sharp from = it's ET frequency) it will be even more out of tune from a proper tierce, which should be flat from ET. So you can't have a pipe which is both a perfect quint and a tierce at the same time. Also if you opt for one or the other the celeste beat frequency will be wrong over much of the note range.   Whew !! I hope I've got that right.   And a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone   Bruce Miles   web site - http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/index.html     Subject: Tierce from Undulating Rank     > List, > > There are probably problems with this concept, but I'd like to ask if anybody > has tried this before with success. > > The recommendation was made to me to take an undulating rank and derive the > Tierce from it. >   > > 1. Is there a standard for how far off pitch a Celeste or Unda Maris is > tuned. > > 2. Is a Celeste rank actually in tune with itself - but simply each = note > being a fixed amout off tune from the rank with which it will be played? > > 3. In creating an undulating rank, is it possible to "detune" the undulating > rank such that its quint would be a perfect fifth from the rank with which it > would be paired as a celeste. When played at the 1 3/5' pitch, it will form > a proper Tierce; when played at 8', it will undulate. > > I'd appreciate your comments. > > Thanks, > Keith >    
(back) Subject: RE: - Soundfonts att: Bruce From: "Samuel Metzger" <samuel.metzger@christpreschurch.org> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:47:46 -0500   Bruce,   Out of curiosity, are these "sound fonts" usable by a program such as Sibelius or Finale?   Thanks,   Samuel   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Bruce Miles Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 4:18 PM To: PipeChat Subject: Re:- Soundfonts     For Bill Lyon,   The Theatre Organ soundfont (by the late Doug McMurry) was available on = the Hammersound site - although still listed the links are now non-functional.   SFAIK the only theatre organ soundfonts now generally available are those = on my website ('Cinema Organ') below. Also the 'English Organ' soundfont.   They are free to download for non-commercial use. I hope they are of interest.   Bruce Miles   website - http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/index.html   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lyon" <> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: soundfonts     > I came across a message from Theatreorgans-L that I had printed and > promptly misplaced. The print date is 12/4/01 and the subject was > "McMurry Soundfont." They were placed on pipechat.org for others to > download. I just subscribed so can someone tell me if they are still > available and how to access them. > > Thanks. > > Bill Lyon > Digital Artisan owner     "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org      
(back) Subject: Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:52:03 -0500   To Bruce and the list: What if you were to tune a celeste to a temperament other than mean, lets say start out at A437 rather than A440 or A455. Would or could you carry that difference throughout the rank and would you have to take into consideration a greater spacing or bring it back in tune at the highest note? All I can think of is the Allen system of stretch tuning which makes the center "C" on the money. Below center "C" it goes from a -1 to -6 = above "C" it goes from a + 2 ro +7.Celeste tuning goes from "C"2 at 20 sharp to "B" 5 at 2 cents sharp.Expanded goes from 19 to 4. Not being a pipe organ tuner, I don;t know if this might be applicable to unified small pipe organs. Paul   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Miles" <bruce@gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank     > Hello Keith, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> > Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 3:42 AM > > Some thoughts on this snip-wise (saves typing) > > > I understand that, for the Tierce 1 3/5' > > to form a proper Cornet, it must be tuned a perfect fifth. Therefore, it > > cannot be successfully derived from a unified rank. > > Whether a Tierce is part of a Cornet, some other mixture or an = independent > stop it must be tuned to a perfect fifth. It is sometimes found as a derived > stop but it is so far out of tune as to be not satisfactory. > > > I "think" that the intervals are flattened slightly in Well-Tempered > tuning. > > I'm not familiar enough with tuning to know if all the various = intervals > > (except the octaves, of course) are "tempered" to the same degree. I > > understand that some undulating ranks are tuned slightly flat and = others > > slightly sharp. > > Notes are adjusted to equal temperament (ET) by making all the intervals > between adjacent notes equal percentage-wise. This results in a derived > tierce being sharp (very) from the correct pitch by 14 cents (14% of a > semitone) , and a derived quint flat (slightly) by 2 cents from the correct > pitch. This applies over the whole frequncy range. > > > There are probably problems with this concept, but I'd like to ask if > anybody > > has tried this before with success. > > > The recommendation was made to me to take an undulating rank and = derive > the > > Tierce from it. > > I can't see how this can work. For a musical effect a celeste would be > detuned by an amount changing gradually from very roughly14 cents at the > bottom of the keyboard to about 2 cents at the top, usually sharp but could > be flat. Whilst you could perhaps play tricks by using the quint at the top > and the tierce at the bottom of the keyboard range and also by using > different octaves I think it unlikely the result would be musically > satisfactory.. > > > 1. Is there a standard for how far off pitch a Celeste or Unda Maris = is > > tuned. > > Not SFAIK. It is is usually tuned 'till it sounds right'. Perhaps 1 beat per > sec (bps) at the bottom of the keyboard to 2 or 3 at the top. > > > 2. Is a Celeste rank actually in tune with itself - but simply each note > > being a fixed amout off tune from the rank with which it will be = played? > > It is not in tune with itself, because the amount of detune from equal > temperament changes over the note range. It gradually increases in terms of > bps from bottom to top, but as a percentage it decreases. > > > 3. In creating an undulating rank, is it possible to "detune" the > undulating > > rank such that its quint would be a perfect fifth from the rank with which > it > > would be paired as a celeste. When played at the 1 3/5' pitch, it = will > form > > a proper Tierce; when played at 8', it will undulate. > > No, I don't think so. A derived quint is flat and a derived tierce is sharp, > so if you re-tune an ET tuned pipe to be a perfect fifth (ie sharp from it's > ET frequency) it will be even more out of tune from a proper tierce, which > should be flat from ET. So you can't have a pipe which is both a perfect > quint and a tierce at the same time. Also if you opt for one or the = other > the celeste beat frequency will be wrong over much of the note range. > > Whew !! I hope I've got that right. > > And a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone > > Bruce Miles > > web site - http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/index.html > > > Subject: Tierce from Undulating Rank > > > > List, > > > > There are probably problems with this concept, but I'd like to ask if > anybody > > has tried this before with success. > > > The recommendation was made to me to take an undulating rank and = derive > the > > Tierce from it. > > > > > > > 1. Is there a standard for how far off pitch a Celeste or Unda Maris = is > > tuned. > > > > 2. Is a Celeste rank actually in tune with itself - but simply each note > > being a fixed amout off tune from the rank with which it will be = played? > > > > 3. In creating an undulating rank, is it possible to "detune" the > undulating > > rank such that its quint would be a perfect fifth from the rank with which > it > > would be paired as a celeste. When played at the 1 3/5' pitch, it = will > form > > a proper Tierce; when played at 8', it will undulate. > > > > I'd appreciate your comments. > > > > Thanks, > > Keith > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >    
(back) Subject: Re: Undulating Tierce From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:31:24 -0600   I recall playing a small unit organ in England built back in the 1960's wwith a pair of strings on the Swell -- 8' Salicional and 8' Vox Angelica TC -- where the Tierce was derived from the Vox Angelica. The results, though far from ideal, were better than one might have expected. The celesting rank -- in this case the Vox Angelica -- would of necessity have to be tuned flat for this to work.   A tenor C celeste rank would normally have 49 pipes, and it is worth remembering that the lowest 4 notes could be tuned entirely as a celeste and the top sixteen notes entirely as pure third for the tierce, since they would only be used in one of the two stops.   Borrowing the tierce from the celeste in this way is not something I would recommend in the normal course of things, but it might work all right for a small residence organ.   John Speller   John Speller  
(back) Subject: Re: Undulating Tierce From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:53:06 EST     --part1_32.31c67cde.2b391802_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I understood that when you play a "c" with the 12th or 19th drawn that = you're really playing a "g" and that you're playing an "e" when the 1 3/5 is = drawn.   Poor Keith... you're thinking too much!! Just play the damn thing! heeheehee   .... derivation from another rank was OK for the 2 2/3 and 1 1/3, but not = for the 1 3/5. Later, in a discussion of mutations, it was mentioned that all =   mutations "should" be tuned a perfect interval from the unison.   Not OK for the quint (2-2/3 etc) ranks either. They're tuned a perfect fifth to the unison. This way, when the "note" is played on the cornet = of 5rks, you get a perfectly tuned chord...   I wonder if part of the unique sound of the pipe organ that's difficult to =   recreate electronically is due to the fact that the tuning of the ranks is =   tempered, but the harmonics created by an individual pipe is perfect.   Nope..... the unique sound of the pipe organ come from the wind-blown = pipes producing perfect harmonics as well as the sympathetic vibrations with other pipes. Not to mention that the sound is LIVE!!     The "theory" or "physics" involved in using mutations, esp. 12th and 19th = has to do with accenting certain harmonics (or is that the purpose of = mixtures). Does that mean that these mutations are used to "supply" or "emphacize" certain notes of the scale in which a piece is being played, or are they = used to emphacize the harmonics of the notes being played. In the former, I = would think that they could be derived from existing ranks, if the latter, then = I can see that deriving them wouldn't work.   Actually (heh heh) chorus mixtures are for emphasizing the harmonics of = the entire chorus and making the overall sound more rich. Mutations are for =   exaggerating the particular harmonics and creating solo voices, or = coloring the ensemble in a very deliberate way.   Anyway, I wanted to correct my statement, even tho' I think y'all knew = what I was trying to ask, as well as pose this additional question.   Nice save!! ;-)     Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui in the Muttastery at Howling Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 check out <A = HREF=3D"http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053">Vision Success </A>       --part1_32.31c67cde.2b391802_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>I understood that when = you play a "c" with the 12th or 19th drawn that you're really playing a = "g" and that you're playing an "e" when the 1 3/5 is drawn. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#8080ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><I>Poor Keith... &nbsp;&nbsp;you're thinking = too much!! &nbsp;&nbsp;Just play the damn thing! = &nbsp;heeheehee</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B></I> <BR> <BR>... derivation from another rank was OK for the 2 2/3 and 1 1/3, but = not for the 1 3/5. &nbsp;Later, in a discussion of mutations, it was = mentioned that all mutations "should" be tuned a perfect interval from the = unison. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#8080ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><I>Not OK for the quint (2-2/3 etc) ranks = either. &nbsp;&nbsp;They're tuned a perfect fifth to the unison. = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This way, when the "note" is played on the cornet of = 5rks, you get a perfectly tuned chord... &nbsp;</FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" = LANG=3D"0"></B></I> <BR> <BR>I wonder if part of the unique sound of the pipe organ that's = difficult to recreate electronically is due to the fact that the tuning of = the ranks is tempered, but the harmonics created by an individual pipe is = perfect. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#8080ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><I>Nope..... the unique sound of the pipe = organ come from the wind-blown pipes producing perfect harmonics as well = &nbsp;as &nbsp;the sympathetic vibrations with other pipes. &nbsp;&nbsp;Not to mention = that the sound is LIVE!! <BR> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B></I>The "theory" or "physics" involved in = using mutations, esp. 12th and 19th has to do with accenting certain = harmonics (or is that the purpose of mixtures). &nbsp;Does that mean that = these mutations are used to "supply" or "emphacize" certain notes of the = scale in which a piece is being played, or are they used to emphacize the = harmonics of the notes being played. &nbsp;In the former, I would think = that they could be derived from existing ranks, if the latter, then I can = see that deriving them wouldn't work. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#8080ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><I>Actually (heh heh) &nbsp;chorus mixtures = are for emphasizing the harmonics of the entire chorus and making the = overall sound more rich. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Mutations are for exaggerating = the particular harmonics and creating solo voices, or coloring the = ensemble in a very deliberate way. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></B></I>Anyway, I wanted to correct my = statement, even tho' I think y'all knew what I was trying to ask, as well = as pose this additional question. <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#8080ff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><B><I>Nice save!! &nbsp;;-)</FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" = LANG=3D"0"></B></I> <BR> <BR> <BR>Bruce, with Miles, Molly and Degui &nbsp;in the Muttastery at Howling = Acres http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 = &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;check out &nbsp;&nbsp;<A = HREF=3D"http://www.visionsuccess.com/BC2053">Vision Success </A> <BR> <BR></FONT></HTML>   --part1_32.31c67cde.2b391802_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Tierce from Undulating Rank From: <RonSeverin@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:15:31 EST     --part1_c5.2e23b6aa.2b391d43_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Dear chatters:   As several have pointed out, the original question was can a celeste be derived from a mutation? The answer is Yes! It has been done successfully many times on organs large and small. Can a mutation be derived from a celeste? The answer is the same, Yes! In all, the mutation tuning must take preference over the celeste or unda maris. Quints have a tendency to be sharp, and tierces flat when used this way. If this is carried out, the beats should be more or less uniform throughout the compass. The fact is it works.   Ron   --part1_c5.2e23b6aa.2b391d43_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Dear chatters:<BR> <BR> As several have pointed out, the original question was <BR> can a celeste be derived from a mutation? The answer is Yes!<BR> It has been done successfully many times on organs large and small.<BR> Can a mutation be derived from a celeste? The answer is the same,<BR> Yes! In all, the mutation tuning must take preference over the<BR> celeste or unda maris. Quints have a tendency to be sharp,<BR> and tierces flat when used this way. If this is carried out, the <BR> beats should be more or less uniform throughout the compass.<BR> The fact is it works.<BR> <BR> Ron</FONT></HTML>   --part1_c5.2e23b6aa.2b391d43_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Undulating Tierce From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:45:59 +1300   I think it's important for you, and all organists of course, to listen carefully to independent mutations, and those which have been switched = from a unison rank and therefore out-of-tune. You will notice a distinct difference.   The octave by the way is the second harmonic, as the fundamental is the first harmonic. I know that sounds strange, but it's true. The G is therefore the third harmonic, the double octave is the 4th, the Tierce or 17th is the 5th harmonic.   Ross -----Original Message----- From: Kzimmer0817@aol.com <Kzimmer0817@aol.com> To: pipechat@pipechat.org <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 7:42 AM Subject: Undulating Tierce     List,   Bruce was the first to correct me regarding my question about deriving = the Tierce from an undulating rank. His correction is that the Tierce is = tuned a major "third" not a "fifth". I really knew that, I just wasn't = thinking. I understood that when you play a "c" with the 12th or 19th drawn that you're really playing a "g" and that you're playing an "e" when the 1 3/5 = is drawn.   That does bring up another question for clarification. About 5 years = ago when I first subscribed to piporg-l and pipechat, I posed a question about the composition of the Cornet. A point that was emphacized at that time = was the importance of the Tierce rank of 1 3/5 - that it was tuned a "perfect" interval from the unison. IOW, one didn't tune the Tierce pipe that would play if "c" were pressed to the "e" 2 1/2 octaves above the unison, = because that "e" would be tempered.   That seemed to hint that this "perfect interval from unison" was = something unique to the Tierce, and that was why it was not successfully derived = from another rank. IOW, derivation from another rank was OK for the 2 2/3 and = 1 1/3, but not for the 1 3/5. Later, in a discussion of mutations, it was mentioned that all mutations "should" be tuned a perfect interval from the unison.   I wonder if part of the unique sound of the pipe organ that's difficult = to recreate electronically is due to the fact that the tuning of the ranks is tempered, but the harmonics created by an individual pipe is perfect. = When one plays a C & G together, one is playing an imperfect fifth. But..... = the 2nd harmonic of the "C" is a "g", but it's not the octave of the same "g" = as the one being played by pressing the "G" key. So, there's a beating occuring between the actual "g" being pressed and the 2nd harmonic of the "c" that's being pressed.   The "theory" or "physics" involved in using mutations, esp. 12th and = 19th has to do with accenting certain harmonics (or is that the purpose of mixtures). Does that mean that these mutations are used to "supply" or "emphacize" certain notes of the scale in which a piece is being played, = or are they used to emphacize the harmonics of the notes being played. In = the former, I would think that they could be derived from existing ranks, if = the latter, then I can see that deriving them wouldn't work.   Anyway, I wanted to correct my statement, even tho' I think y'all knew what I was trying to ask, as well as pose this additional question.   Thanks, Keith    
(back) Subject: IRC From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 01:37:24 -0500   Sorry to have missed IRC last night, to all my friends and acquaintances there and on the Pipechat List.   A Merry Christmas and Happiest of Holidays!!   Mack