PipeChat Digest #2726 - Tuesday, February 26, 2002 My busy Sunday by "Paul Opel" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Digital pianos by "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Re: Church organist's pay by "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: need suggestions for San Diego Churches to visit (xpost) by "Jonathan Roussos" <email@example.com> Re: Church organist's pay by "Travis L. Evans" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Church organist's pay by "Emmons, Paul" <email@example.com> Re: Church organist's pay and substitutes by <firstname.lastname@example.org> gripes by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: gripes by <email@example.com> gripes by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: gripes by "Stanley Lowkis" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: More on "Brother of Sleep" XPOSTED by "Mack" <email@example.com> History and correction (Stupid Mike!) was: Re: Church organist's pay by "Mike Swaldo" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: My busy Sunday From: "Paul Opel" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:22:16 -0500 I just had one of the more hectic services I've ever done. I'm subbing around these days, unwilling to tie myself down for the $75 a week that most of the churches around here can come up with. This week, I got hired at the large Congregational church here in Rutland, VT (Rip Jackson, Minister of Music). Anyway, Rip likes to get good use of me when I'm = there. He'de also hired my favorite soprano, and asked for a spiritual in honor = of Afro-American History Month, and it grew from there. Besides singing with the choir responses, she and I did Harry T. = Burleigh's "Every Time I Feel the Spirit" with the piano (new Steinway B) for the introit and "Balm in Gilead" with the guitar as a special music selection. I played alto sax along with the hymns, and clarinet (statt oboe) on the 23rd Psalm from the Rutter "Requiem" for the anthem. Then, Rip moved off the bench and I played a Pablo Bruna "Tiento de dos tiples" as the organ postlude (Nice III/48 Aeolian-Skinner). Five different instruments in three locations around the church- no wonder I felt busy! P http://www.sover.net/~popel
(back) Subject: Re: Digital pianos From: "Margo Dillard" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:36:16 -0600 Fight with all your might to keep a real piano. I also own a very fine, = top line digital keyboard - which I bought for one reason - PORTABILITY. = Can't beat them for that. It has an "acceptable" piano sound for playing dinner parties or accompanying outdoors and such. It has 2 "passable" organ = sounds - one fluty, one full organ - for outdoor weddings. And it has a somewhat reasonable facsimile of a harpsichord sound for continuo work. BUT - is does not come close to the real thing in any way - sound, touch. The = piano setting has touch control of dynamics but the range is MUCH less than a = real piano. The pedal has NO finess - it is an on/off switch. I can think of = no reason to ever replace a real piano with a digital one in a permanent location. If they think they don't have room for a grand, make them buy a good upright. (Besides - if they buy a digital - next thing, they will = make you stop using the piano sounds and use those "cool" sounds instead and before you know it, you will have no piano, no organ - just praze band keyboard) (And besides that, by the time you add the keyboard, stand, and external amp/speaker you will absolutely have to have in anything bigger than an office-sized room - it will take up as much space as an upright piano anyway - and, no, I wouldn't let them just plug it into the room's sound system - then the guy in the sound booth controls your volume, not you.) Margo
(back) Subject: Re: Church organist's pay From: "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:12:16 -0400 on 2/26/02 3:39 AM, Mike Swaldo at firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: > Finally, this is the oldest church in Ohio. The congregation was = started in > 1799, and Ohiuo became a state in 1801. I think that's an interesting > thing. Hi, Mike. What church is that that is the oldest in the state? Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio email@example.com
(back) Subject: RE: need suggestions for San Diego Churches to visit (xpost) From: "Jonathan Roussos" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 06:36:26 -0800 The 12:00 Noon mass at this parish is nicely done with quite a fine choir. Jon Roussos email@example.com writes: There would be at least one old Spanish mission in the area, too, not to = be missed even though there might be no organ at all. Steve Skinner replies The San Diego Mission has a 17 rank Wicks, hailed by no less than Jared Jacobsen as "a wonderful organ." Sold and installed by me, voiced by = Douglas Harrison Cable. Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA
(back) Subject: Re: Church organist's pay From: "Travis L. Evans" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:35:20 -0800 Where I'm at I get 4 weeks paid vacation, and if I need more I get it. = I'm sure their Pastor gets paid vacation, and the secretary, organists should = be no different. She should ask to have it paid for or as someone else said, "hit the trail" Travis > Then came the information that there was no vacation pay. She was told > she could take time off but that she would have to pay her substitutes. > > Is this a new trend?
(back) Subject: RE: Church organist's pay From: "Emmons, Paul" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 12:09:35 -0500 In many parts of the country, the problem of paying a substitute pales to insignificance beside that of FINDING one. Your friend should be sure to ask whether, if she isn't able to get a substitute herself, she is allowed any time off at all. I can't think of another line of work in which employees don't get any vacation unless they arrange for their own deputies. But that seems to be = a common assumption, along with the unique meaning of "full time." ("We = are offering you a full time job: Every Sunday, $100 a week.") However, to my mind being required to arrange for one's substitute is = poetic justice for those organists who take such a proprietary attitude to = "their" console that they frown on anyone else going near it. One can't have it = both ways.
(back) Subject: Re: Church organist's pay and substitutes From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 09:40:38 -0800 "Emmons, Paul" wrote: > In many parts of the country, the problem of paying a substitute pales = to > insignificance beside that of FINDING one. > Tell ME about it ... it took me three YEARS to find someone in Orange = County, CA who knew the difference between the Sanctus and "Saved, Saved, Saved!" = (grin). But I still got my vacations, substitute or no substitute. I don't think = they ever did without music COMPLETELY, but there were Sundays when the music = at Mass was reduced to hymns on the piano. I tried to HELP them find subs, but my vacation wasn't contingent upon it. Of course, Low Mass with NO music isn't a disaster in our tradition. We = just don't normally do it on SUNDAY. A point about these so-called "part-time" positions ... I don't know of = ANY other profession that requires a worker to give up FIFTY-TWO weekends a = year ... in any OTHER profession that would pay time-and-a-half or DOUBLE-time. = Even the CLERGY get weekends off. I once spent EIGHT YEARS chained to the console without a vacation; when I finally took one, the church FIRED me, even though they'd grudgingly given PERMISSION. There was some grumbling at St. Matthew's initially about my having four = weeks off with pay; then I submitted a detailed report to the Vestry about what = I DO with my time during the week; there was no more grumbling (grin). It was = WELL over forty hours a week. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: gripes From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:03:53 +1300 Bud, At least it's easier in your country for an organist to find somewhere to = go to than it is for an NZer here to find another parish as a clergyman! = Apart from about a dozen parishes in New Zealand, and that includes the seven cathedrals in the Anglican Church, church music is pretty terrible and = most of the organs are very ho-hum as well. Where there are organs, they are generally small (below 20 ranks) and of poor design and tone. In New = Zealand these days, even a rebuild of ONE instrument merits major note amongst organists. A new instrument is a great rarity. Look at me (well, not me, but my situation). In my first parish, I = designed and physically built a fair bit of the new church. I installed a 4rk unit organ made of old bits, none of which cost the parish anything. In my 2nd parish we had a 20rk organ, sure, but deep in a chamber in a church = seating about 100 and getting about 50 to 60 people; and the organ was electrified about 50 years before. In my last parish we had a 4rk unit organ from = 1960, no reeds. In the townI've just retired to, in a district of 20,000 people, not one church has an organ at all, and then "the best", in the two = Anglican churches, are just mind-screamingly-horrible 2-manual electronics of the allen breed. There is one pipe organ in the town - a badly-installed 16rk theatre organ in the local car museum, and it costs a fortune to be = allowed to have even half an hour on it. The nearest organ in an Anglican church is 25 miles away and has one = manual of 16 8 8 8 scheme, tracker of about 1910. And can find another in the opposite direction 20 miles away, and this is a 2nd-organ thing of GREAT 8 = 8 8 4 4 SWELL 8 8 8 8 4 8 PEDAL 16 8 of poor electric action in a Baptist church. The tone is pitifully weak and dull. There was another organ in = the same town, and in Anglican church, but they gave it away a few weeks ago because they haven't got one person in their congregation who can even = play a piano. Their congregation numbers about 15 to 20 people, and the organ = was a sister of that wee one manual I've mentioned above. As I'm only 60, and intend to live at least another 40 years, my great = love of church music is not exactly going to have an easy ride - and as you can see there is no church to shift to. I s'pose I could take an hour and a = half and go to Wellington Cathedral where the music is quite stunning, but = that's too far to go every Sunday my age upwards. So, why do I live in this town? Well, I could afford to buy a house here = for one big reason. Secondly, I'm only 6 mins.walk from a wonderful big beach. = I spoke of north and south to churches: I can't go east because there'sd a mountain range with no roads across it. I can't go west because that's = open sea all 1250 miles across to Australia. You see, it's all a matter of perspective. Organists rightly complain = often about details of service, but clergy don't always have it easy, either. = When I lost my dear son and his fiancee in a traffic smash (not of their = causing) two and a half years ago, I had just one Sunday off from full parish = duties. I needed much more time, but it was never suggested and so I couldn't take it. Try living with having lousy organists and there being no one better. I = took two services in January in Wellington - over an hour's drive away - and = was asked to play the organ myself as well as celebrate Holy Communion and preach. And I haven't even had any travel expenses yet. And in my last parish I was the only "proper" organist, and played for two of the three Services each week, and was Choirmaster as well - yet not even a $5 per = year allowance for music, let alone an increase in pay. Oh yes, I provided all = my own hardware and software to do, myself, the parish weekly newsletter and monthly magazine as well, and I didn't get half an hour a month = secretarial assistance. So you see, sometimes clergy feel like having a moan, too, and thanks for listening to mine, but mostly we clergy have circumstances every bit as = bad as any of you organists, at least here in New Zealand. Forgive me for having a case of the "grumps" this morning. Regards to all, Ross
(back) Subject: Re: gripes From: <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:11:50 -0800 Ross & Lynda Wards wrote: > Bud, > (much snippage) > So you see, sometimes clergy feel like having a moan, too, and thanks = for > listening to mine, but mostly we clergy have circumstances every bit as = bad > as any of you organists, at least here in New Zealand. > > Forgive me for having a case of the "grumps" this morning. > > Regards to all, > Ross > Have at it (grin), and I don't blame you. I truly wonder how traditional Anglican church music survives in parts of the former Empire (as well as = the clergy). The American Episcopal Church and some of the "continuing" Anglican = churches like mine are relatively well-off when compared to what you describe. My congregation of 100 families and about 200 communicants has raised over = US $2 million CASH over the past four or five years to buy land and build a = church. That's perhaps exceptional, but Newport Beach California is a very wealthy = area, and salaries are high ... but so is the cost of living. I pay US $1000 a month for a VERY ordinary one-bedroom flat in the "cheap" = part of Orange County (grin), about a half-hour north of the church in = Huntington Beach. Another point: the US, for all its faults, is still a VERY religious = country ... as Father Marshall has remarked on several occasions, our people EXPECT to = pay their own way as far as supporting the churches; MANY of OUR folks tithe = 10% off the top BEFORE taxes are taken out; that's a mite unusual for ANGLICANS = (grin), but it's ENTIRELY UNremarkable among US protestants. We're building in a new suburb in an area that's becoming "church row" ... = ours is the smallest project at approximately US $5 million ... Mariner's = Church down the street is spending something in the neighborhood of US $40 million on = their project, and God ALONE only knows how much the Mormon Temple across the = canyon from us is going to cost (grin); the neighboring Jewish temple is also in = the midst of a MASSIVE expansion of their Hebrew Day School. Our Rector's salary is somewhere around US $80K per annum, plus allowances = -- housing, car, etc.; he and his wife have three young children; if she = didn't work, it would be VERY difficult for them to live on his salary alone. Different world, I guess ... Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: gripes From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:50:20 +1300 Dear Dave & Ron, Thanks for your comments, both of you. I'll try to reply to both of you at once, but in no order of any sort. No, we do have a daughter as well. She's 27, living in Wellington with her husband of 3 years. We usually swop visits about every 10 days. Why do I stay? Well, NZ is my home. Even at my grand old age of 60, my mother is still alive, plus six uncles and aunts, many cousins (not that I see any of them very often), and my father-in-law and step-mother-in-law. And just about all my friends are here, both very longterm ones and newer ones. And NZ is probably the safest country on earth to live in, despite = my remarks. And I live just 6 mins walk from enormously long sandy beaches = that are ideal for swimming and walking. Too, my house is freehold and it costs only about $1200 p.a. in rates: it's a 1906 wooden house of 2250 sq.ft. on = a quarter-acre flat section. And there's no pollution in this town at all, = not the tiniest bit. And I've got no money at all to live anywhere else, let alone shift there. And the USA wouldn't let me migrate, even if I wanted = to, and I'd be away from my home, beach, possessions, family etc. Ditto for = the UK. and for Oz, even if I wanted to live there. I would at one time have dearly loved to have lived in the UK for some years, but never had the = money to shift and there was the "problem" of family needing education (both = have become double graduates and keen Christians as well). Etc. However, my home organ is on the way. It'll be 42 ranks over 4 manuals, = the TOTAL cost to me being only about $5,000, i.e. about USA$2,000. Yes, I live on the west coast of NZ, north of Wellington, the capital = city, which is at the southern tip of the North Island. Yes, it would be wonderful to be a "successful" evangelist, but in spite = of my noise and bluster in some respects, that's only on the surface, and I'm really a quiet bloke underneath it all. NZ does not respond any more to = mass rallies of people, unless it's as an audience for a major sports fixture = or a rock concert. Culture has changed here: I doubt if Billy Graham at his "best" would these days get more than 250 people. Classical music in some ways is a biggish issue: we have an ad-free state radio that plays it 70% of the time - yet is listened to by only about = 2.5% of the people. And we have a fulltime state orchestra of about 115 players who really are worldclass. And there are good operas going on every year, and fine cathedral choirs, and many fine secular civic choirs that mostly sing great "church music" of the past. And there are at least 4 other fulltime orchestras, and many smaller ones of high quality but amateur players. Home is home, you see. I can't for the life of me see how anyone could = want to live in India, or Kuwait, or Kashmir, or Israel, or Afghanistan, or China, or Japan, or Hong Kong, for example, yet those places are home to squillions of people. We have, too, some of the most spectacularly = beautiful scenery in he world: volcanoes, thermal areas, glaciers, great mountains, turbulent rivers, vast forests never touched, enormous lakes, stunning farmland, endless beaches, you name it. And that counts for a lot to = NZers. Only four minutes drive from my house here I can be in open farmland, yet it's only 1 hour by commuter train to the heart of the capital city. But my gripes remain. You see the gripes are personal. Some folk would applaud our country's secularity. Scarcely anyone at all would notice if = all the churches and organs disappeared over night, even amongst the musical fraternity. Some would say our liberal morals and ethics are a sign that = NZ is finally growing up. And we do have good sports things, even, if that's your bag. We've just yesterday beaten England in a cricket series, and beat Oz in a cricket series just before that. And there are all the All Blacks. And we successfully defended our "ownership" of the America's Cup in yachting. And there are good "exports" as well. Lord Rutherford (first split the atom), Kiri te Kanawa, Oscar Natzka, Gillian Weir, Edmund Hillary, to name the first 5 that come to mind. And there are some political stances that I thoroughly approve of: we will not allow any nuclear-powered warships of = any nation to enter NZ waters or ports, including those from the USA to the USA's great disgust and anger. After all, we won't even allow nuclear electricity generation. And our country is very green, in metaphorical and literal senses: food is cheap and plentiful, water pure and in huge quantities. Why, we even like our own accent! So, you see.......... But my gripes remain. And Ron, I wish I could collect some of your used organs, even just two or three soundboards and a pile of 2nd-hand magnets would be of inestimable value to me....... I'm off to do some weeding - we've got visitors coming later. Kind regards to all, Ross
(back) Subject: Re: gripes From: "Stanley Lowkis" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:01:11 -0500 Ross & Lynda Wards wrote: > So, you see.......... > > But my gripes remain. > > And Ron, I wish I could collect some of your used organs, even just two = or > three soundboards and a pile of 2nd-hand magnets would be of inestimable > value to me....... > > I'm off to do some weeding - we've got visitors coming later. > Kind regards to all Ed Welch in Boston used to be in that business. I believe that he changed names several times. Stan
(back) Subject: Re: More on "Brother of Sleep" XPOSTED From: "Mack" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:19:45 -0500 Greetings Listers,' I have taken this one step further and consulted the Internet Movie Database, (imdb.com), and that site lists what is available i.e.: cd's, dvd's videos, and alas no cd's of the soundtrack. :-(. And although he didn't mention it, Felix has recorded the Toccata too on the Schantz at = The Cathedral in Newark. Cheers, Mack Felix Hell wrote: > The Toccata has been released twice by WERGO (Schott International). > I have no knowledge whether or not the complete film soundtrack > had been released on a CD. > > Felix >
(back) Subject: History and correction (Stupid Mike!) was: Re: Church organist's pay From: "Mike Swaldo" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:58:53 -0800 Randy, Oops! (very shamefaced) I guess I need to get my facts straight before I make claims. The Oldest church is First Presbyterian in West Union, OH. According to their website, they started in 1797. We officially started 2 years later in 1799. Below is a brief summary of our early history, which I posted a few weeks ago to another list: John Heckewelder Moravian Church in Gnadenhutten, OH. The current congregation was begun by John Heckewelder in 1799, and called Rev. Louis Huebner as it's first Pastor in 1800. However, the congregation's roots go back much further, to before the Revolutionary War when Gnadenhutten was the second of four Mission stations (the other three were Schoenbrunn, Salem, and Lichtenau) on the Muskingum (now Tuscarawas) river, when Ohio was considered the "new" frontier. These were thriving communities of Europeans and Indian Converts. The mission church in Gnadenhutten had a "spinet" which was played by an Indian Convert named Joshua. During the war, this area was frequented by both British and American Soldiers. The Moravians, being pacifists, would welcome the soldiers into the community and give them food, and any assistance they needed. Since they welcomed soldiers from both sides, they also were under suspicion by both sides. In 1781, the communities were rounded up by a border renegade named Simon Girty and Indians loyal to the British. They were force marched North. The Missionaries (David Zeisberger, John Heckewelder, and several others) were taken to Fort Detroit to face charges of treason. The Military commander, Arent Depeyster, eventually found them not guilty, and they = were released. While all this stuff was going on in Detroit, several Indian Converts were allowed to return in the early spring of 1782 and collect = food and supplies. About March 3rd, a group of militia men from Fort Pitt came into the community, rounded up the Converts in Gnadenhutten, and brutally killed them the next day. The victims were 96 men, women, and children. There were only two survivors who made their way back to the others to = tell the story. The "Gnadenhutten Massacre" is certainly one of the darker moments of American History. I don't know if it is ever mentioned in any school history books other then the "Ohio History" that kids get here in Ohio, = but at the time it got a lot of attention. Benjamin Franklin mentions the "Destruction of Gnadenhutten" in his Autobiography. The area lay desolate until Heckewelder returned in 1799, cleared off the brush, and buried what remains he could find, then set about laying out = the town, much as it appears today. Heckewelder became one of Tuscarawas Counties first noted figures. He was a surveyor, and , I think, one of = the first County Comissioners. He retired and returned to Bethlehem, PA. He died in 1823. His home still stands there, in an alley behind Central Moravian Church, and currently houses the administrative offices of the Bethlehem Bach Choir. David Zeisberger returned to the area and begun one final mission post called Goshen. He died there in 1808. Major Arent Depeyster retired, and settled in Dumfries, Scotland, where he was a good friend of Robert Burns. David Williamson, leader of the Militia group that massacred the Indian Converts, retired and became Sheriff of Washington Co., PA. Simon Girty, a controversial figure in history is considered by some to be = a traitor since his loyalties were with the Indians, and he went over to the British side, believing that the Indians would get a better deal from the British than from the Americans. They say he was responsible for the = deaths of many European settlers during the turbulent years of the war. Still, others say he used his skills as an interpreter and his Indian connections to free captured Euorpeans, and thus, saved many lives. Who knows for = sure? History is often written by the victors, and usually favors the = victorious. Girty settled in Malden, Canada and became a farmer. He married and had several children. As he grew older, he went blind, and died in 1818. He was buried on his farm. His descendants are quite numerous, and several Girtys come through the area each summer to visit their ancestor's old stomping grounds, and view the historical drama based on his life. While the farm is no longer in the Girty family, his grave is still visible. = The current owners have built a garage which covers half of it-- a rather odd fate for the earthly remains of one of history's controversial figures.