PipeChat Digest #2620 - Thursday, January 3, 2002
 
Traction Action Questions (Was: Slider Chests)
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Facade pipes
  by "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: Mozart organ works
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: slider chests
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
bits & pieces
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Interregnums and new incumbents...
  by <PHarri5833@aol.com>
Nigel Potts
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Interregnums and new incumbents...
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Slider Chests
  by "Robert P. Bass" <rpbass@earthlink.net>
Wellington Cathedral & acoustics generally
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Traction Action Questions (Was: Slider Chests) From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:30:24 -0600   Regarding Traction Action questions:   >> Fourth: Given tracker action and that a "Manual 1" is coupled to >> a "Manual >> 2" -- do the keys of Manual 1 necessarily physically "move" when the >> corresponding key on Manual 2 is depressed. In other words, is the = manual >> coupling necessarily "visual"?     Jeff White responded:   > I think this is a purely mechanical issue, whereas the key pulls the = upper > manual's key down to make it play as opposed to other styles. I defer = to > the experts on this, though.     Depends upon how the action is designed. Some instruments are such that the keys are "weighted", so that they do not fall when the couplers are engaged, while with Suspended Actions, particularly, the keys usually will drop. Otherwise, the keys require springs to keep them in position, thereby adding to the resistance of touch (not desirable)   major <snippage>   >> Seventh: What, if any, are the disadvantages to having a pedal >> division on >> electric or elecro-pneumatic action while the manuals are on pure = tracker >> action?   > Would it matter in the pedal? I wonder?     It really doesn't. Back about 12 years ago, we re-did an instrument that was constructed in the early decades of this Century by a "garden variety" builder in central Illinois (their instruments were everywhere rural!) The installation situation was such that it was not possible to retain the Pedal as mechanical action. Moreover, we decided to "augment" the Pedal by extending the former 27 note Pedal to 32 notes, and then unifying it so that the Bourdon (soft grunt) would also play at 8' Pitch.   All of these pipes were planted on Electro-Pneumatic windchests, while the couplers to the Pedal from the manuals were done as mechanical action (for obvious reasons).   To my knowledge, no one has EVER complained about the fact that the Pedal has electro-Pneumatic action as opposed to tracker. For one thing: the larger Pedal pipes take so long, relatively, to speak to begin-with that mechanical action is largely lost on them (kind of like "throwing pearls to swine!")     >> Tenth: Assuming the inclusion of a single pure 32' stop is affordable, >> feasible and desirable, would it be best to specify a reed or >> flue stop of >> 32' pitch?     Both are useful, but generally speaking: a 32' Flue would be preferable as the "first" addition. Even there, a "wired" Resultant is a reasonable compromise for the first 12 pipes, with the stop "breaking" to 32' pitch at Tenor C.   >> Fourteenth: What percentage (generally) of organ literature benefits >> significantly from a full-length resonator horizontal reed? Is >> such a stop >> *generally* worth the extra expense?   "Party horns" are fun toys and can be used effectively in the right hands. I know an organist who gets use out of his weekly, not by "blasting" everyone, but using it as a solo stop for a Hymn accompaniment to great effect. Again, this depends completely upon the competency and taste of the player.   Faithfully,     Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Facade pipes From: "The Schneider Family" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:35:25 -0600   Jeff White wrote:     > I'm not sure, to be honest. Anyone know what Kilgen normally used back = in > the early part of the 20th century??     Zinc.   Faithfully,   Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO SCHNEIDER PIPE ORGANS, Inc. Pipe Organ Builders 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (217) 944-2527 FAX mailto:arpschneider@starband.net HOME EMAIL mailto:arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com WEB PAGE URL    
(back) Subject: Re: Mozart organ works From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:42:44 -0800       Karl Moyer wrote:   > It borders on "heresy" to suggest that Mozart's "church sonatas" are = not > "Church music," but, candidly, the aesthetic/spiritual expectations of = music > in church where Mozart worked or worshiped were quite different from = those > of most persons now. In similar fashion, I would hesitate to perform = Bach > cantata arias for the average American congregation, given most = present-day > congregations' general lack of comprehension of that music and even = those > texts. (More about this below.) >   Oh, HEAVENS, Karl! They fit the TRIDENTINE Roman Catholic Mass PERFECTLY, = and that's what they were intended for. The defects of the present Anglican = and Roman liturgies in NO way invalidate Mozart's Masses as cheerful music = written to the glory of God.   I WILL grant you that Bach cantata arias need the DREADFUL pietistic texts replaced ... even Schweitzer said that. It has been undertaken from time = to time, with mixed results. I'm tempted to do them in the original German = and NOT print a translation (grin).   One of my former rectors suggested that the Bach Passions be performed = with the recitatives and choruses only ... "Who cares about hearing how the soprano = feels about the whole business for twenty minutes at a stretch??!!" (grin)   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Re: slider chests From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:01:10 -0800       DP wrote:   > Fellow Members, > > First: Other than simplicity of design, what, if any, are the artistic > advantages of so-called "key-channel," slider operated windchests?   The speech of all the pipes of the same pitch on a common windway is = better; also, the windway itself is a secondary tone production component, as it = vibrates sympathetically.   > Second: Does the employment of a slider windchest pre-suppose the use of > tracker key-action? If so, why?   No. Slider chests can be fitted with mechanical, pneumatic, = electro-pneumatic, or electro-mechanical pulldowns.   > Third: In an organ employing slider stop action, tracker key action, how = is > wind provided to a rank (or partial rank) of display or facade pipes = whose > feet do not set on the windchest?   Flexible tubes are run from where the pipe would normally stand on the = windchest to toe blocks beneath the facade pipes.   > Fourth: Given tracker action and that a "Manual 1" is coupled to a = "Manual > 2" -- do the keys of Manual 1 necessarily physically "move" when the > corresponding key on Manual 2 is depressed. In other words, is the = manual > coupling necessarily "visual"?   Some do, some don't. Depends on the builder and the type of coupler = mechanism used.   > Fifth: Referring to the fourth question above -- does the same answer > pertain to Pedal-to-manual coupling?   Same answer.   > Sixth: Again assuming a purely tracker-action organ --- is the force > required to depress the keys of a manual coupled to one or more other > manuals significantly (or noticeably) larger than if the manual were = played > "alone"? If so, is the additional force burdensome or restrictive to > certain fingering -- such as staccato?   It's noticeable; on a good organ it shouldn't be any more burdensome than = playing a harpsichord with the manuals coupled.   > Seventh: What, if any, are the disadvantages to having a pedal division = on > electric or elecro-pneumatic action while the manuals are on pure = tracker > action?   Getting the manuals and pedals to speak EXACTLY together.   > Eight: Can a "resultant" 10-2/3' + 16' combination equal the "volume" = and > "gravity" of an [open] 32' stop? Same question for a closed 16' stop.   It can, IF the 10 2/3 rank is INDEPENDENT, so it can be tuned true, rather = than derived from a softer 16' rank. Also, the 19th century practice of "monkey quints" (placing the unison and quint pipes on a common toe) also improves = the effect of the resultant, but that means the 16' has to be independent as = well, as both pipes will speak whenever the stop is engaged.   > Ninth: 17th, 18th and 19th Century music aside, is the investment in a = full > 32 note 32' stop (flue or reed) easily justified from a purely artistic = view?   A Resultant with the first 12 notes playing 16 and 10 2/3, and then a 16 = an octave lower from note 13, is a LOT cheaper, and is sufficient for most = things IN A GOOD ROOM. Aside from that, I'd have a quieter 32' Contra Bassoon before = I'd have a Bombarde ... it's useful for more things.   > Tenth: Assuming the inclusion of a single pure 32' stop is affordable, > feasible and desirable, would it be best to specify a reed or flue stop = of > 32' pitch?   I'd have a 32' Contra Bourdon first, but I'm a traditionalist Anglican = organist (grin). You'd get more use out of it, and it's called for more often.   > Eleventh: Given a well thought-out specification in all other respects, = and > cost aside (!), would the addition of a five-rank mixture to the > [proposed] Choir division (to supplement a three rank mixture) take > precedence over the addition of an additional 16' reed in the pedal?   Can't comment without seeing the entire specification AND the composition = and pitches of ALL the mixtures.   > Twelfth: Again cost aside, what are the advantages/disadvantages to the > visible (facade pipes -- 16 and 8 feet) being made from largely pure tin > versus "normal" pipe metal. Can the last octave (down) of a 16' = principal > stop support is own weight if mad of pure tin?   They look pretty (grin). Isn't the question of support the reason most bass pipes are made of zinc?   > Thirteenth: What is the importance of the metal composition (e.g. 60/40 > tin/lead) of non-display pipes. Cost aside, is there an optimum pipe = metal > mixture for all principal stops? What -- if any -- difference can be > achieved (or heard) with display (diapson) pipes of pure polished tin?   Brombaugh (I believe) uses high lead content for his principals (except = for the facade pipes), with ravishing results ... high-tin-content MIXTURES = produce a lovely, silvery sound in the hands of a master voicer.   > Fourteenth: What percentage (generally) of organ literature benefits > significantly from a full-length resonator horizontal reed? Is such a = stop > *generally* worth the extra expense?   About .0001 (grin). I'd have an (enclosed) Choir Tuba first ... MUCH more = useful. Worth the expense? Only if you've got ABSOLUTELY everything ELSE an organ = needs, INCLUDING an interior CHORUS Trumpet on the Great ... that's the most = COMMON mistake made ... a horizontal trumpet CANNOT substitute for a chorus = trumpet inside the organ-case.   > I appreciate your thoughtful responses to this questions. > > Daniel Pitzer, PhD., DM., D Mus. > Chairman, Adjunct Organ Committee > Co-Chairman, Architectural Planning Committee > St. John's Cathedral, ECUS > San Francisco/Novato > > >   Cheers,   Bud Clark Organist/Choirmaster St. Matthew's Anglican Catholic Church Newport Beach CA USA      
(back) Subject: bits & pieces From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:51:47 +1300   Dear List, I know of no aluminium [correct spelling for Britain, Australia and NZ] pipes at all in New Zealand, and saw none in Britain. Zinc pipes are not only a lot cheaper and stiffer than metal or tin, but are also lighter so need less support. I don't think there's really all that much advantage in having anything else below about GG pitch or maybe CC, and I've seen stunningly good zinc pipes even as high as 2ft Middle C, though rarely. Strings need more tin than Principals. 32fts are no use at all unless the hearers are going to be at least the standing-wave distance from the pipes, i.e. about 40ft or so. I think a = good 16ft full-length reed is better than most 32ft half-length reeds, so don't go that way, especially don't try the fractional-length reeds with wooden resonators. You might compare costs of a 3rk or 4rk Harmonics stop to achieve something of the same result - e.g. (10.12.b14.15) or even just a = 10 2/3 and 6 2/5 in flues if you have good 8fts and 4fts on the Pedal = already. Bourdons, i.e. stopt 32fts, need to be of massive scale to be effective, i.e. about 28" or even up to 36" square at CCCC. You can't, in other = words, get a 2nd-hand Open Wood of, say, 16 to 20" square and stopper it - it = won't work. I'd have rather have, all the same, a flue than a reed, but any 32ft stop = is diabolically expensive of space, money and wind. Resultants can be phenomenally successful, even if you don't have independent quints. Wellington Cathedral used to use its 16ft wood SubBass at suboctave pitch to TenC, then play the Quint. The thing shook the floor and was infinitely more effective than the almost-useless stoppered old = 16ft wood they have there now. Double-mouthed pipes. Both of you are right. When made of metal, the = mouths are adjacent, as has been said, at right-angles. When of wood, the mouths are on opposite sides of the pipe. The things are very hard to voice and = are a singular waste of money. They also are hard to plant: it's easy to avoid mouth-shading with one mouth, but almost impossible with two. 'Nuff of me till next time. Regards, Ross        
(back) Subject: Re: Interregnums and new incumbents... From: <PHarri5833@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 01:59:19 EST     --part1_92.1f478474.29655b47_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 03/01/02 01:03:52 GMT Standard Time, Steve Barker = writes:   > This is my first appointment as Organist and Choirmaster as I'm still > fairly youthful (24) and I have no experience of working in an = interregnum > or being part of appointing a new incumbent. I suppose what I'm scared = of > is getting a new guy (or girl!) that could destroy everything I've = worked > hard at building up over the last four and a half years. I would be > interested in hearing from others who have worked through similar > situations and what the outcome was! let me have the bad stories as well = as > the good ones! At least one good thing might come from it - I may be = able > to negotiate a better salary under a new incumbent as at the moment I'm = on > about half the RSCM recommended salary... but that's another story!   There can be no guarantee that your new rector/vicar won't want a complete =   change of music style. But, the Church of England's method of appointment = of clergy varies from parish to parish depending on its constitution. For example, a modest parish but where the living is freehold may have a = "patron" who may be the rector of the main church in the town or some other person who's predecessor had something to do with the creation of your parish. = This patron can be influential in the selection of our new incumbent. Your churchwardens and PCC will also have the job of producing a = "specification" that your area dean and archdeacon will forward to your bishop to guide = him in selecting a suitable person. It is also worth being an active member of =   the PCC and therefore involved in the appointment process.   Where the church does not offer a freehold (and many livings of this type = are now being suspended) and where it is part of a team ministry of some other =   structure involving clergy working in more than one church, your lot is rather less controllable. Indeed, the bishop and diocesan pastoral = committee may decide on your new vicar with there being very little local input. = This can lead to some sad stories, but most of those involved don't see any benefit in upsetting traditions that are supporting a church which is effective for its congregation. If the style of music you have developed = is appreciated and helps the church operate its mission, there's a good = chance your traditions will be respected. They are most likely to be overturned = when the traditions are not supported by the majority of the parish (and PCC) because they have been allowed to become something special mainly for the musicians involved and not those worshipping and paying the bills!   The scales of honoraria for UK musicians suggested by the Archbishops' Council and promoted by the RSCM and others have wide scope to reflect the =   needs of many different types of parish with different levels of demand to =   the musicians and reflecting varying skill levels. I do wish you luck in getting your PCC to adopt the most appropriate scale for your situation as =   this need not be a major financial burden unless the church is requiring = you to work on something approaching a full time professional basis. In my own =   case, regular church services are given by me voluntarily in lieu of = joining any of the giving schemes, but I do charge towards the high end of the fee =   scales for the "extras" such as weddings and funerals.   Kind regards Peter   Peter M Harrison Emmanuel Church, Holcombe, Lancs, GB   & P H Music 48 Moorfield : Edgworth Bolton : Lancs : BL7 0DH : GB fax: +44 (0)1204 853445 : tel: +44 (0)1204 853310 web: www.phmusic.co.uk   --part1_92.1f478474.29655b47_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 03/01/02 01:03:52 GMT = Standard Time, Steve Barker writes:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> This is my first appointment as Organist and Choirmaster as I'm = still fairly youthful (24) and I have no experience of working in an = interregnum or being part of appointing a new incumbent.&nbsp; I suppose = what I'm scared of is getting a new guy (or girl!) that could destroy = everything I've worked hard at building up over the last four and a half = years.&nbsp; I would be interested in hearing from others who have worked = through similar situations and what the outcome was! let me have the bad = stories as well as the good ones!&nbsp; At least one good thing might come = from it - I may be able to negotiate a better salary under a new incumbent = as at the moment I'm on about half the RSCM recommended salary... but = that's another story!</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> There can be no guarantee that your new rector/vicar won't want a complete = change of music style. But, the Church of England's method of appointment = of clergy varies from parish to parish depending on its constitution. For = example, a modest parish but where the living is freehold may have a = "patron" who may be the rector of the main church in the town or some = other person who's predecessor had something to do with the creation of = your parish. This patron can be influential in the selection of our new = incumbent. Your churchwardens and PCC will also have the job of producing = a "specification" that your area dean and archdeacon will forward to your = bishop to guide him in selecting a suitable person. It is also worth being = an active member of the PCC and therefore involved in the appointment = process.<BR> <BR> Where the church does not offer a freehold (and many livings of this type = are now being suspended) and where it is part of a team ministry of some = other structure involving clergy working in more than one church, your lot = is rather less controllable. Indeed, the bishop and diocesan pastoral = committee may decide on your new vicar with there being very little local = input. This can lead to some sad stories, but most of those involved don't = see any benefit in upsetting traditions that are supporting a church which = is effective for its congregation. If the style of music you have = developed is appreciated and helps the church operate its mission, there's = a good chance your traditions will be respected. They are most likely to = be overturned when the traditions are not supported by the majority of the = parish (and PCC) because they have been allowed to become something = special mainly for the musicians involved and not those worshipping and = paying the bills!<BR> <BR> The scales of honoraria for UK musicians suggested by the Archbishops' = Council and promoted by the RSCM and others have wide scope to reflect the = needs of many different types of parish with different levels of demand to = the musicians and reflecting varying skill levels. I do wish you luck in = getting your PCC to adopt the most appropriate scale for your situation as = this need not be a major financial burden unless the church is requiring = you to work on something approaching a full time professional basis. In my = own case, regular church services are given by me voluntarily in lieu of = joining any of the giving schemes, but I do charge towards the high end of = the fee scales for the "extras" such as weddings and funerals.<BR> <BR> Kind regards<BR> Peter<BR> <BR> Peter M Harrison<BR> Emmanuel Church, Holcombe, Lancs, GB<BR> <BR> &amp; P H Music<BR> 48 Moorfield : Edgworth<BR> Bolton : Lancs : BL7 0DH : GB<BR> fax: +44 (0)1204 853445 : tel: +44 (0)1204 853310<BR> web: www.phmusic.co.uk</FONT></HTML>   --part1_92.1f478474.29655b47_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Nigel Potts From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:16:43 +1300   Dear Karl, Thanks for your words. Yes, I do indeed know Nigel Potts and, like all those who have heard his recent recitals on finishing at Yale, (I think that's where he has been) I'm very impressed with both his technique and his musicianship. On this List a few weeks ago, folk were raving about him. I've known Nigel's mother, a most capable piano teacher, for over 40 years, and his father for about 30. Too, I know Nigel to be a most unassuming, likeable young fellow. Regards, Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: Interregnums and new incumbents... From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:19:02 +1300   What you do is appoint me from New Zealand as Vicar and pay all my = expenses to move over to your patch. I've just retired from the active Anglican ministry here in New Zealand and have had wonderful relations with = musicians all the way along, being an enthusiastic organist myself. Regards, Ross [grinning :-)] -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Barker <steve@ststephenscanterbury.freeserve.co.uk> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:00 PM Subject: Interregnums and new incumbents...     >Hello list! > >I've had this on my mind for a few days, but now it has been officially >announced by Lambeth Palace, I can talk about it! The Rector of the = Parish >where I am Organist and Choirmaster has been appointed the new Archdeacon of >Maidstone (in the Canterbury Diocese, UK). This is my first appointment = as >Organist and Choirmaster as I'm still fairly youthful (24) and I have no >experience of working in an interregnum or being part of appointing a new >incumbent. I suppose what I'm scared of is getting a new guy (or girl!) >that could destroy everything I've worked hard at building up over the = last >four and a half years. I would be interested in hearing from others who >have worked through similar situations and what the outcome was! let me have >the bad stories as well as the good ones! At least one good thing might >come from it - I may be able to negotiate a better salary under a new >incumbent as at the moment I'm on about half the RSCM recommended = salary... >but that's another story! > >Thanks! > >Steve Barker >Organist and Choirmaster, St Stephen's Church, Canterbury >Education and Training Officer, Canterbury Diocese RSCM > >P.S. Maybe there are some nice musical Church of England clergy on this >list looking for a new post?!?! > > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: Re: Slider Chests From: "Robert P. Bass" <rpbass@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 01:12:08 -0800   Daniel,   One noticeable quality of the key channel slider chest is in the speech of the pipe. The key channel design reduces the air turbulence as it enters the pipe. Gives the pipe more of a "ha" attack rather than a "ta" attack.   Bob     > > First: Other than simplicity of design, what, if any, are the artistic > advantages of so-called "key-channel," slider operated windchests? >      
(back) Subject: Wellington Cathedral & acoustics generally From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:41:46 +1300   Ron, Thanks for yours. Some parts of the organ in Wellington Cathedral are on peculiar-shaped chests at right angles to the way they should be, and thus project out of the chamber, mainly the Great and Positive. Too, the horizontal Trompette = is part of that mess. Odd-looking cantilever timber beams painted dark = support the whole ugly mess. To tune the thing, you have to stand on a ledge about 15" wide some 30ft off the floor, with nothing to hang on to. Ugh - that's my official response. Architects are the curse of clergy and musicians. I've had endless rows = with them over the years. One in one church I served insisted the organ, if it did have to be shifted from the east end to the west as I insisted, said = it could be shifted in three minutes by front-end-loader. He also said, when = I complained that the way he thought of it, the showcase pipes (about 25 of the 8ft Open Diapason) would be too long: "I'll get a skilsaw and cut them down - no one needs pipes that long." And he complained bitterly to the parish about me being an ignorant clergyman (by definition, I think) and that he, as an architect, knew all that could be known about organs and acoustics. Words almost failed me, but I got him defeated. In my first parish, I designed the church myself and the great David Willcocks said of it, "You have the best acoustics in the world for a = church of this size, of any shape, materials, tradition or age." I felt a little pleased, shall we say. I'll tell the List the story of this church and the (pipe) organ I put in it, some day. I believe excellent acoustics, for both speech and music, are absolutely 100% dead easy to achieve. The big Beranek book of a number of years ago = is, to me as a musician, rubbish. I won't say "with all due respect," because = I think they deserve none for their acoustical views and theories. If all that sounds odious and vain, I apologise in advance, but = acousticians are terrible. In the "leading" acoustics firm in NZ, the head of the firm admitted they have no musicians on their staff at all, and no one with speech exams either. Heavens, the ancient Greeks had it right, as did Christopher Wren, so why the difficulties in recent years? It seems people feel the laws of physics can be broken with impunity. The illustration I use is this: if you want an operating lamp, you use a wide shallow dish reflector with several light sources, avoiding any possible shadows thereby. If you want a locomotive headlight, you use a deep = "witch's hat" shape of reflector with one really good bulb that can focus way down the track. To suggest you could swop these two lights over and achieve = good results in each case is just arrant nonsense, of course, yet acousticians and churches who fill their buildings, often of weird shapes, with = absorbent materials, are similarly trying to do things that the laws of physics just won't allow them to do. And then they try and fix the whole damned mess = with powerful amplifiers and speakers and mixers and mikes everywhere. Dumb, oh dear, dumb, dumb, dumb. Regards, Ross