PipeChat Digest #2632 - Sunday, January 6, 2002
 
SOCIALIZING WITH THE CLERGY
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
PS to Re: socializing with clergy
  by "Rodney West" <rodneywest72@yahoo.com>
Re: socializing with clergy
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Re: socializing with clergy
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: while we're on the subject of academics
  by "Mark Quarmby" <mark_quarmby@yahoo.com>
Re: socializing with clergy
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: while we're on the subject of academics
  by <MFoxy9795@aol.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC, sorta -- thank you! and some comments (X-posted)
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: socializing with clergy
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Mozart organ works
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC, sorta -- thank you! and some comments (X-posted)
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
OFF-TOPIC: Liturgies old and new
  by <quilisma@socal.rr.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC: Liturgies old and new
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: socializing with clergy
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
clergy/musician relationships
  by "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: SOCIALIZING WITH THE CLERGY From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:21:45 -0800 (PST)   Bud's post about his rector's criticism of his Chrysler was certainly interesting.   Christ rode into Jerrusalem on a borrowed ass. Today, the ass is in the pulpit.   My, how times have changed.   D. Keith Morgan   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/  
(back) Subject: PS to Re: socializing with clergy From: "Rodney West" <rodneywest72@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:27:23 -0800 (PST)   After you ask him the question listed below, you may want to ask him whether he is willing to give you a raise so that you can afford a better car.   What amazes me, Bud, is that you accept this sort of behavior. You sound like a man who is a thoroughly knowledgable musician with a good background.   Maybe it is about time you find another job, one that pays well so that you don't have to live in a near-poverty situation, then quit your current position. Go out with grace and move on with your life.   If you do this, you might want to consider then following up with a letter to the rector in writing (with copies to the vestry) saying that his behavior toward you was unacceptable and that is why you are leaving. Keep it polite, brief and business-like.   To stay in the kind of position you are now in shows the rector that you don't exercise any self-respect, and that gives him a kind of a sadistic thrill in exploiting your situation to the maximum.   Get another job, show him (and more importantly, yourself) that you have self respect, improve your living standard and get on with your life.   You deserve the very best. Rodney --- Rodney West <rodneywest72@yahoo.com> wrote: > Even though my suggestion was for Daniel, it may or > may not work in certain cases. If your rector > suggests your Chrysler is not suitable, simply ask > him > the following sobering question: > > What was our Lord Jesus riding when he entered > Jerusalem for the last time? > > RW > > > --- quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: > > I think my Rector would be very uncomfortable in > my > > home ... we live in > > borderline poverty, though we DO have three meals > a > > day, a roof over our > > heads, and medical insurance. The average income > at > > St. Matthew's is WELL > > in excess of $100K per annum. > > > > We have two cars, an '82 Chrysler Newport and a > '91 > > Mitsubishi pickup. The > > Chrysler is comfortable, and mechanically just > about > > everything has been > > replaced, but cosmetically it's a REAL "welfare > > wagon" (grin). He has > > already made snide comments on the occasions when > > I've had to drive the > > Chrysler to church because the pickup was in the > > shop ... it doesn't look > > "suitable" among all the Rolls, Mercedes, BMWs and > > SUVs in the church > > parking lot. I have learned to park it out of > sight > > way around to the > > other side of the building where the church meets. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/  
(back) Subject: Re: socializing with clergy From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 20:29:45 -0500       Rodney West wrote:   > Even though my suggestion was for Daniel, it may or > may not work in certain cases. If your rector > suggests your Chrysler is not suitable, simply ask him > the following sobering question: > > What was our Lord Jesus riding when he entered > Jerusalem for the last time?   Answer: Perhaps one of the rector's relatives?   > >    
(back) Subject: Re: socializing with clergy From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 21:23:56 EST     --part1_8.1f2842f7.29690f3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 1/5/02 8:15:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, rodneywest72@yahoo.com writes:     > What was our Lord Jesus riding when he entered > Jerusalem for the last time? > >   Alas, it may have been a donkey.... but it WAS new!! ;-)     <A HREF=3D"mailto:Cremona502@cs.com">Bruce Cornely</A> with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> = and meet the Baskerbeagles: Duncan, Miles, Molly & Dewi   --part1_8.1f2842f7.29690f3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 1/5/02 8:15:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, rodneywest72@yahoo.com writes: <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">What was our Lord = Jesus riding when he entered <BR>Jerusalem for the last time? <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Alas, it may have been a donkey.... but it WAS new!! &nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR> <BR> &nbsp;<I><A HREF=3D"mailto:Cremona502@cs.com">Bruce Cornely</A> </I> <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit &nbsp;<I><A = HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502">HowlingAcres</A> </I>and meet = the Baskerbeagles: &nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi </FONT></HTML>   --part1_8.1f2842f7.29690f3c_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: while we're on the subject of academics From: "Mark Quarmby" <mark_quarmby@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 14:19:01 +1100   Funny you should say this (see quote below) as this is exactly what we wer= e taught back in the early 80s at Sydney Conservatorium of Music. We (the organ students) put it down to the strong influence Anton Heiller had been on most of the organ teaching staff. We were also taught that there were n= o English composers of organ music since John Stanley! Fortunately my teache= r was a pupil of Andr=E9 Marchal and so I was allowed to secretly learn some "real" music, unbeknownst to the hierarchy of the organ department! Thank goodness that has all changed now...along with the squeaky organs of the time with no swell boxes and no registration aids..... >=20 > About the only thing I learned in the ORGAN department at Oberlin > Conservatory was that NO organ music was written from the time of the > death of Cesar Franck until Messiaen became active. >=20 > Imagine my total and utter surprise in later years when I discovered > Reger, Karg-Elert, Rheinberger, Guilmant, Dubois, Boellman, Widor, > Vierne, Tournemire, Langlais, Dupre, etc. etc. etc., having paid a > fortune to Oberlin for what I was led to believe was a well-rounded > musical education.     _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Re: socializing with clergy From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:18:48 EST   quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote:       > He has taken me out to lunch once, shortly after I > arrived. I can't AFFORD > to take HIM out to lunch; I doubt if he'd eat what I put > on our table.     Bud, just serve him some nice humble rice and beans. It's good for you, = and it won't hurt him any.   On the other hand, maybe beans and this rector would NOT be a good combination.... already too much hot air!   XOXOXO Vicki  
(back) Subject: Re: while we're on the subject of academics From: <MFoxy9795@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:23:52 EST   In a message dated 1/5/2002 6:21:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:   > About the only thing I learned in the ORGAN department at Oberlin > Conservatory was that NO organ music was written from the time of the > death of Cesar Franck until Messiaen became active. > =20 > Imagine my total and utter surprise in later years when I discovered > Reger, Karg-Elert, Rheinberger, Guilmant, Dubois, Boellman, Widor, > Vierne, Tournemire, Langlais, Dupre, etc. etc. etc., having paid a > fortune to Oberlin for what I was led to believe was a well-rounded > musical education. > =20 > Ah, the naivet=E9 of Youth ... > =20 > Cordially, > =20 > Bud Clark (sadder and wiser in his old age, but with a degree from > Somewhere Else nonetheless) > =20 LOL my experience at Obie was similar, except that a lot of Dupre was done along= =20 with all the Messiaen. however, Vierne and Widor were strictly VERBOTEN!!!= =20 along with the others you mention such as Dubois, Rheinberger, etc. =20 Merry  
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC, sorta -- thank you! and some comments (X-posted) From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:43:02 EST     --part1_114.a5911eb.29692fd6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   I found this tidbit on the official Anglican Catholic website:   "In addition to regular Sunday worship, clergy and lay people alike are encouraged to develop a disciplined personal devotional life including = daily prayer, regular Bible study and meditation, fasting and abstinence on = Fridays and during Lent (unless medically inadvisable), occasional retreats, and a =   pledge of weekly financial support to the Church."   Good luck, Bud.   Vicki       --part1_114.a5911eb.29692fd6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica>I found this tidbit on the official = Anglican Catholic website:<BR> <BR> "In addition to regular Sunday worship, clergy and lay people alike are = encouraged to develop a disciplined personal devotional life including = daily prayer, regular Bible study and meditation, fasting and abstinence = on Fridays and during Lent (unless medically inadvisable), occasional = retreats, and a pledge of weekly financial support to the Church."<BR> <BR> Good luck, Bud.<BR> <BR> Vicki<BR> <BR> <FONT SIZE=3D3><BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_114.a5911eb.29692fd6_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: socializing with clergy From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 00:41:01 EST     --part1_40.171983d9.29693d6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit       > I have learned to park it out of sight way around to the > other side of the building where the church meets. >   Now, Bud, THIS is getting my blood boiling!! Why? Why? Why? If it were to = be kind to visitors and offer parking spaces to them, fine. But this is out = and out "racism" (kinda sorta). If that dear saint in Birmingham refused to = sit in the rear of the bus, you have absolutely no need to park out of sight. = It seems to me that your health issues afford you the right to park as close = as possible.   Do your cars make the others look bad? Who the heck cares? It's a = church. At the foot of the cross, ALL are equal in God's eyes.   Neil Brown   --part1_40.171983d9.29693d6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT = SIZE=3D2> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">I have learned to = park it out of sight way around to the <BR>other side of the building where the church meets. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>Now, Bud, THIS is getting my blood boiling!! Why? Why? Why? &nbsp;If = it were to be kind to visitors and offer parking spaces to them, fine. = &nbsp;But this is out and out "racism" (kinda sorta). &nbsp;If that dear = saint in Birmingham refused to sit in the rear of the bus, you have = absolutely no need to park out of sight. &nbsp;It seems to me that your = health issues afford you the right to park as close as possible. <BR> <BR>Do your cars make the others look bad? &nbsp;Who the heck cares? = &nbsp;It's a church. &nbsp;At the foot of the cross, ALL are equal in = God's eyes. <BR> <BR>Neil Brown</FONT></HTML>   --part1_40.171983d9.29693d6d_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: Mozart organ works From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 22:02:19 -0800   Karl Moyer wrote:   > >> It borders on "heresy" to suggest that Mozart's "church sonatas" are = not > >> "Church music," but, candidly, the aesthetic/spiritual expectations = of music > >> in church where Mozart worked or worshiped were quite different from = those > >> of most persons now. In similar fashion, I would hesitate to perform = Bach > >> cantata arias for the average American congregation, given most = present-day > >> congregations' general lack of comprehension of that music and even = those > >> texts. (More about this below.) > >> > > > > Oh, HEAVENS, Karl! They fit the TRIDENTINE Roman Catholic Mass = PERFECTLY, and > > that's what they were intended for. The defects of the present = Anglican and > > Roman liturgies in NO way invalidate Mozart's Masses as cheerful music = written > > to the glory of God. > > I would stop short of branding current Anglican or Roman liturgies = -- or > anyone else's lituriges! -- as defective.   I obviously do NOT hesitate to do so ... that's why I have spent most of = the last twenty years working in either Tridentine RC parishes, or conservative anglo-catholic or "continuing" Anglican parishes. Please note that I did = NOT say "invalid." Defective as to content and historical continuity, YES; = invalid, NO. THERE I part company with some of the Tridentinists.   > People once that that about > Bach's music, too, you know.   Yes ... exactly what you're saying about MOZART'S music ... HELLO!   > I do NOT suggest that there are no standards > at all, but I DO suggest that the validity of the style and content of = any > given liturical order is a comlex issue. > > Perhaps Mozart's organ works and Chruch sonatas do fit the = Tridentine > Mass perfectly, but that's of no consequence to us who seek to minister > effectively where we are. So, for those of us "unfortunate souls" who > don't live with the Tridentine Mass in all its "purity," I repeat: I = don't > see these Mozart works as valid in most of our music ministries.   So the fact that the hierarchies has changed the liturgies somehow = "invalidates" both the music and the spiritual content of Mozart's church music? I DON'T = THINK SO.   > I can't much change or "purify" the liturgy were I am, but I *can* = seek > to select and perform music appropriate to it. I suspect most of us are = in > the same boat. > > Cordially, > > Karl E. Moyer > Lancaster PA >   Neither can I ... I DO manage (for the most part) to keep the wolf of = Modernism away from the CHOIR door.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC, sorta -- thank you! and some comments (X-posted) From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 22:04:35 -0800     --------------57AA82ECE8041B969B516263 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   That's what the EPISCOPAL Church USED to teach (grin). All of that (except the fasting, which I'm dispensed from for medical reasons) has been part of my Rule of Life for fifty years ... I'm not particularly pious ... that's just what we were taught to DO, and we DID it.   Cheers,   Bud   Myosotis51@aol.com wrote:   > I found this tidbit on the official Anglican Catholic website: > > "In addition to regular Sunday worship, clergy and lay people alike > are encouraged to develop a disciplined personal devotional life > including daily prayer, regular Bible study and meditation, fasting > and abstinence on Fridays and during Lent (unless medically > inadvisable), occasional retreats, and a pledge of weekly financial > support to the Church." > > Good luck, Bud. > > Vicki > >   --------------57AA82ECE8041B969B516263 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> That's what the EPISCOPAL Church USED to teach (grin). All of that (except the fasting, which I'm dispensed from for medical reasons) has been part of my Rule of Life for fifty years ... I'm not particularly pious ... = that's just what we were taught to DO, and we DID it. <p>Cheers, <p>Bud <p>Myosotis51@aol.com wrote: <blockquote TYPE=3DCITE><font face=3D"arial,helvetica">I found this tidbit on the official Anglican Catholic website:</font> <p><font face=3D"arial,helvetica">"In addition to regular Sunday worship, clergy and lay people alike are encouraged to develop a disciplined = personal devotional life including daily prayer, regular Bible study and = meditation, fasting and abstinence on Fridays and during Lent (unless medically = inadvisable), occasional retreats, and a pledge of weekly financial support to the = Church."</font> <p><font face=3D"arial,helvetica">Good luck, Bud.</font> <p><font face=3D"arial,helvetica">Vicki</font> <br>&nbsp; <br>&nbsp;</blockquote> </html>   --------------57AA82ECE8041B969B516263--    
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Liturgies old and new From: <quilisma@socal.rr.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 22:36:37 -0800   Neither the Tridentine Mass or the liturgy of the Anglican Church prior to the 1960s are "pure", by any means, though the lineage of the 1928 American Book of Common Prayer is perhaps more of a straight line, deriving as it does from the 1786 Book - the 1662 English Book - the original Book of Common Prayer of 1549 - and the pre-reformation Sarum Rite. The Tridentine Mass, on the other hand, being older, has as many layers as an onion, from West Syrian to North African to Old Roman Diocesan to Gallican, etc.   The point: both the Missal of Paul VI and the American Book of Common Prayer of 1976 represented a BREAK with that historical continuity ... both in THEOLOGY *and* in LANGUAGE(S).   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: Liturgies old and new From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 01:39:03 EST     --part1_171.6b8d836.29694b07_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 1/6/02 1:37:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:     > The point: both the Missal of Paul VI and the American Book of Common > Prayer of 1976 represented a BREAK with that historical continuity ... > both in THEOLOGY *and* in LANGUAGE(S).   Yes- and I find that VERY sad indeed.   Scott Foppiano   --part1_171.6b8d836.29694b07_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 1/6/02 1:37:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@socal.rr.com writes:<BR> <BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The point: both = the Missal of Paul VI and the American Book of Common<BR> Prayer of 1976 represented a BREAK with that historical continuity ...<BR> both in THEOLOGY *and* in LANGUAGE(S)</BLOCKQUOTE>.</FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR> <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" = SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Yes- and I find = that VERY sad indeed.<BR> <BR> Scott Foppiano</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: = #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"><BR> </FONT></HTML> --part1_171.6b8d836.29694b07_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: socializing with clergy From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:16:13 +1300   Much as I may sympathise with the topic being discussed, don't ask the question you just have. Jesus rode a donkey. This was a royal animal and signified that the person riding it approaching the city gates was a king coming in peace. If he had ridden a horse into the city it would have = stated very clearly he was still a king but coming intending to take over. That custom is still the case in the Middle East, or was till quite recently, = so when Viscount Allenby entered Jerusalem towards the end of World War I he got off his horse a mile away and walked in, to make it clear he did not enter the city as a king or ruler or conquerer of any kind. So, I repeat, don't ask your Vicar that question. Ross (the Vicar from New Zealand) -----Original Message----- From: Rodney West <rodneywest72@yahoo.com> To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Date: Sunday, January 06, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: socializing with clergy     >Even though my suggestion was for Daniel, it may or >may not work in certain cases. If your rector >suggests your Chrysler is not suitable, simply ask him >the following sobering question: > >What was our Lord Jesus riding when he entered >Jerusalem for the last time? > >RW > > >--- quilisma@socal.rr.com wrote: >> I think my Rector would be very uncomfortable in my >> home ... we live in >> borderline poverty, though we DO have three meals a >> day, a roof over our >> heads, and medical insurance. The average income at >> St. Matthew's is WELL >> in excess of $100K per annum. >> >> We have two cars, an '82 Chrysler Newport and a '91 >> Mitsubishi pickup. The >> Chrysler is comfortable, and mechanically just about >> everything has been >> replaced, but cosmetically it's a REAL "welfare >> wagon" (grin). He has >> already made snide comments on the occasions when >> I've had to drive the >> Chrysler to church because the pickup was in the >> shop ... it doesn't look >> "suitable" among all the Rolls, Mercedes, BMWs and >> SUVs in the church >> parking lot. I have learned to park it out of sight >> way around to the >> other side of the building where the church meets. >> > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >      
(back) Subject: clergy/musician relationships From: "Ross & Lynda Wards" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:47:37 +1300   Me again. While I'm well aware that there are dreadful clergy round in = some places, even in my own country, I'm sure not all the churches have clergy = as bad as Bud's. I wouldn't stay where he is, even if it meant taking another kind of job. But what I would do in such a situation is 1. inform the Vestry chairman by letter (i.e. probably the Vicar's or People's Warden) that I'd had a gutsful and was going to the Bishop 2. go and tell the Archdeacon ditto 3. make an appointment with the Bishop and see him. If the Bishop is a good man, he'll at least give the Vicar a rocket, even = if he doesn't tell you he's going to. You see, in New Zealand, any = parishioner in the Anglican Church has a perfect right to ring the Bishop's Secretary and make an appointment to bring up any subject at all, and many lay = people do. I know for a fact that my Bishop is impartial and does not "close = ranks" and favour the clergy. In New Zealand, if there is a major problem with the clergyman, the parish can decide to give the Vicar six months' notice and he goes, with no right of appeal to the Bishop - all they need is a congregational decision in Special General Meeting following a Vestry resolution. I know of several cases where this has happened and the Bishop has upheld the congregation's rights. First, though, I'd ask to meet the parish Wardens, and discuss the = situation with them. Your way is clear if they are sympathetic. As far as cars go, I'm one of those NZers, like most of us, who do not believe in anyone being snobs. My wife and I have a car each: hers is a = 1992 Mitsubishi Galant we "inherited" when our dear son was killed two years = ago. My car is a 1987 Toyota Camry station wagon. I'll park my car anywhere I damn well please, and never accept any pressure from anyone to get a = better car. As a Vicar, and still, now just retired, I don't even own a suit, and have never had a black one since my marriage 34 years ago. I only wear a = clerical collar on Sundays. In winter, I usually wear the kilt, with pullover or jacket or both. In summer, it's a sports shirt untucked, with shorts and bare feet in sandals, even at Archdeaconry meetings or at Vestry meetings = or under my cassock-alb on Sundays often. Hospital visiting likewise, and = when I visit parishioners in their homes. To me, it's no one's business how I dress or what sort of car I have. I have been told (when I was in California on a study trip, for example) that my outlook would not be acceptable to an American Anglican, but that doesn't bother me either. Even at a service on Sunday in St Paul's Cathedral, London, I was still in shorts. Comfortable and cool. And why = the kilt? For several reasons - 1. I like wearing it 2. I like showing my family roots 3. it's colourful while trousers and suits are drab 4. I want to say "up yours" to all the showy veneer that some people call sophistication.   Remember, I'm a clergyman. Does this make you organists shudder to hear = the above? Do you shudder to hear you have a clergyman, and Anglican at that, = on your List, as a vocal and noisy contributor? (Please say you do shudder) :;-) Bud, you must be a finer man than me, putting up with what you do, that's all I can say, and I would dearly love to have worked with you in a = parish. Do remember, though, List members, that there ARE other kinds of clergy around, and that none of the idiocies of any of the clergy (or any other person) in any way should diminish our faith in the Christ who wore unbleached robes over home-made sandals and scoffed at pomposity and pretension. Kind regards to all, especially Bud Ross