PipeChat Digest #2663 - Saturday, January 19, 2002
 
Re: posting (2nd time) stoplist and registrations for Bach
  by <Cremona502@cs.com>
Re: quint couplers
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Tuba Mirabilis 8' at Riverside NYC
  by "STEVE BOURNIAS" <yfd4@hotmail.com>
Re: quint couplers
  by "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: posting (2nd time) stoplist and registrations for Bach From: <Cremona502@cs.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:30:43 EST     --part1_17c.23d86f2.297a0a23_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   In a message dated 1/18/02 12:15:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, randyterryus@yahoo.com writes:   > In my many years of playing, I have found that registering the = literature as > well as church playing has often been difficult when playing the = standard > Moller or Reuter 2/20 church organ. Almost universally the instruments = I > am thinking of have a nicely developed swell, and the great is simply a > principal chorus and a lone 8' Bourdon.   Well, in actuality, there isn't much more you can expect on a 2/20 (especially if there is a mixture taking up three or four of the 20). = My first approach is to keep in the back of my mind what the composer seems = to have been wanting, and then try to set the music forth without trying to duplicate the sound. The dynamics, espression, and colour contrasts = possible on the particular instrument are then exploited as much as possible. I = ran into this with the 2/21 Moller at Holy Faith - Gainesville (stoplist on my =   webpage - Organs of Gainesville). But it can work! It does, however, become less frustrating when the instrument become the resource rather = that simply a "duplicator."     > The main thing I am in doubt about is the inclusion of the octave = extension > of the 1-1/3' mixture on the great.   Since it is basically a useless stop except in chorus, and you have it in = the mixture, I don't think it's worth the space/expense.     <> Now with the swell fully developed, I can't ever see a case where I = would > turn on a swell to great 4' coupler in a "full" registration, so I > reinserted the Sharp on the Great.   This is one that I would have left off. A unit mixture extension seems = to scream (no pun intended) failure from the outset. I just don't think = there is need for that much top, especially in an organ of this size.     > The 8' swell principal borrows the Gedeckt plus Gemshorn for the first = 12 > notes.   An interesting approach was used on the Visser-Rowland at Holy Trinity - Gainesville on the Gemshorn. Common basses were used (from the gedekt), = but in combination with "helpers" which were octave gemshorn pipes for the = bottom octave which quietly strengthened the bass and gave it some added independence and tonal independence without requiring the space or expense = of full-length pipes. It works very well.     > <The Claribel Flute on the great is an old Austin stop from the mid = 'teens > that is revoiced with nicking filled and metal inserts in the mouth to > lower the cut-up. I asked for something with a bit of "hybrid" color in = the > middle range, and Paul did a magnificant job, the Claribel has noticable =   > chiff, and while it is definitely a flute, there is a complexity to the > sound that I like.... (snip)   I would expect this to be almost a wood diapason or a colour similar to = what EM Skinner called a Principal Flute. I've always (even during my neo-B years) held my affection for Claribels. Must have been all those = episodes of Howdy Doody!! ;-)   > The Nasat and Terz are both voiced on the Principal side, although they = are > by design milder than a true Principal. The Nasat is more harmonically = rich > than the Terz.   I have a preference for the flute mutations. The more harmonically rich = ones tend to homogenize more and blend into a more unified sound. I like the distinctiveness of the more independent and separate flute sound = (especially on the last low octave note!!).   > sound is quite good. I > originally intended an "English" style organ to go with our Episcopal > parish, but spreading the project out over time has allowed me to > experience phases of the work and our builder wisely counseled me to let =   > the instrument speak with a voice reflective of its period.   So you got more of an "American-Classic" type sound? .... with a clean-leaning?   > For the Bach Fantasy I have not decided what the big registration will be - > I am leaning toward including the pedal reed, but it can get tiresome on =   > the ears.   I like to use the pedal reed for the big sections, except where there is a =   pedal-point. It's a nice, but subtle, change in dynamics to retire the = pedal reed at that point. I've also retired the 16 manual reed, as well.   <> imitative sections with simply the swell > Gedeckt and 4/2 Principal. When I did my recital I used the swell Oboe = as > 8' and 4, 2-2/3, and 2' stops (?) >   These are very interesting sections and almost beg for experimentation and =   variety of colour. I like to use a lone principal on the manual and only = 8' in the pedal, occasionally using the 4' principal played an octave lower. = I also like to use 8 and 2-2/3 since it's such a neat sound. Here, also, = is a very interesting place to use a Quintaton 16 (coupled to the pedal) and played an octave higher on the manual. On the other extreme, I've heard these sections played on 16, 8 and 4 reeds with the box shut. It's = really quite exciting.     > The fugue begins with the Great 8 Principal 8 Gemshorn (it doesn't sound =   > right without it on!) 4, 2 and Mixture. The swell is the same 8-4-2 = combo > mentioned above. The pedal is 16-16-8-4-16 Tpt plus the great to pedal > coupler.   I would be inclined (no surprise) to leave the mixture off the fugue, = saving it until the end. The fugue has a nice, light texture and I think is much =   more enjoyable when not played too heavily. The secondary manual should really be light and sparkly -- my leaning being toward flutes 8 and 2, or somewhat goofy sounds like 8 and 1, or even just a nice lone 4' flute. = For some reason, in these episodes I find that mutations make it too heavy and =   complex, colour wise. I would be very careful to keep the pedal light, possibly using only an 8' reed (quiet), or even coupling the secondary = manual to the pedal for higher pitches. I once heard this played using a 2' Zinc = in the pedal and it was really great. I would, however, also resist the temptation to get to loud and heavy at the end and let the light, = excitement carry through the conclusion. It's always difficult to refrain from the = "big ending."     Bruce Cornely < Cremona502@cs.com > with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" Visit Howling Acres and meet the Baskerbeagles: Duncan, Miles, Molly & = Dewi < http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 >   --part1_17c.23d86f2.297a0a23_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D"US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   <HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a message dated = 1/18/02 12:15:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, randyterryus@yahoo.com writes: <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">In my many years = of playing, I have found that registering the literature as well as church = playing has often been difficult when playing the standard Moller or = Reuter 2/20 church organ. &nbsp;Almost universally the instruments I am = thinking of have a nicely developed swell, and the great is simply a = principal chorus and a lone 8' Bourdon. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Well, in actuality, there isn't much more you = can expect on a 2/20 (especially if there is a mixture taking up three or = four of the 20). &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;My first approach is to keep in the = back of my mind what the composer seems to have been wanting, and then try = to set the music forth without trying to duplicate the sound. &nbsp;The = dynamics, espression, and colour contrasts possible on the particular = instrument are then exploited as much as possible. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I ran = into this with the 2/21 Moller at Holy Faith - Gainesville (stoplist on my = webpage - Organs of Gainesville). &nbsp;&nbsp;But it can work! = &nbsp;&nbsp;It does, however, become less frustrating when the instrument = become the resource rather that simply a "duplicator." <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The main thing I = am in doubt about is the inclusion of the octave extension of the 1-1/3' = mixture on the great. &nbsp;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Since it is basically a useless stop except in = chorus, and you have it in the mixture, I don't think it's worth the = space/expense. <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> <BR>&lt; <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Now with the swell = fully developed, I can't ever see a case where I would <BR>turn on a swell to great 4' coupler in a "full" registration, so I = reinserted the Sharp on the Great. </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" = SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">This is one that I would have left off. = &nbsp;&nbsp;A unit mixture extension seems to scream (no pun intended) = failure from the outset. &nbsp;&nbsp;I just don't think there is need for = that much top, especially in an organ of this size. <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The 8' swell = principal borrows the Gedeckt plus Gemshorn for the first 12 = notes.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">An interesting approach was used on the = &nbsp;Visser-Rowland at Holy Trinity - Gainesville on the Gemshorn. = &nbsp;&nbsp;Common basses were used (from the gedekt), but in combination = with "helpers" which were octave gemshorn pipes for the bottom octave = which quietly strengthened the bass and gave it some added independence = and tonal independence without requiring the space or expense of = full-length pipes. &nbsp;It works very well. <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;The Claribel = Flute on the great is an old Austin stop from the mid 'teens that is = revoiced with nicking filled and metal inserts in the mouth to lower the = cut-up. I asked for something with a bit of "hybrid" color in the middle = range, and Paul did a magnificant job, the Claribel has noticable chiff, = and while it is definitely a flute, there is a complexity to the sound = that I like.... (snip)</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I would expect this to be almost a wood diapason = or a colour similar to what EM Skinner called a Principal Flute. = &nbsp;&nbsp;I've always (even during my neo-B years) held my affection for = Claribels. &nbsp;&nbsp;Must have been all those episodes of Howdy Doody!! = &nbsp;;-) <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The Nasat and Terz = are both voiced on the Principal side, although they are by design milder = than a true Principal. The Nasat is more harmonically rich than the Terz. = </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I have a preference for the flute mutations. = &nbsp;The more harmonically rich ones tend to homogenize more and blend = into a more unified sound. &nbsp;&nbsp;I like the distinctiveness of the = more independent and separate flute sound (especially on the last low = octave note!!). <BR> <BR>Our building has 2-3 seconds of reverberation and the <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE = style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">sound is quite good. I originally intended an = "English" style organ to go with our Episcopal <BR>parish, but spreading the project out over time has allowed me to = experience phases of the work and our builder wisely counseled me to let = the instrument speak with a voice reflective of its period. </FONT><FONT = COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" = LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">So you got more of an "American-Classic" type = sound? &nbsp;&nbsp;.... with a clean-leaning? <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">For the Bach = Fantasy I have not decided what the big registration will be - I am = leaning toward including the pedal reed, but it can get tiresome on the = ears.</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I like to use the pedal reed for the big = sections, except where there is a pedal-point. &nbsp;It's a nice, but = subtle, change in dynamics to retire the pedal reed at that point. = &nbsp;I've also retired the 16 manual reed, as well. <BR> <BR>&lt; Currently I am playing the more <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE = style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">imitative sections with simply the swell Gedeckt = and 4/2 Principal. When I did my recital I used the swell Oboe as 8' and = 4, 2-2/3, and 2' stops (?) &gt;</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 = FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">These are very interesting sections and almost = beg for experimentation and variety of colour. &nbsp;&nbsp;I like to use a = lone principal on the manual and only 8' in the pedal, occasionally using = the 4' principal played an octave lower. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I also like to = use 8 and 2-2/3 since it's such a neat sound. &nbsp;&nbsp;Here, also, is a = very interesting place to use a Quintaton 16 (coupled to the pedal) and = played an octave higher on the manual. &nbsp;&nbsp;On the other extreme, = I've heard these sections played on 16, 8 and 4 reeds with the box shut. = &nbsp;&nbsp;It's really quite exciting. <BR> <BR> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; = MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The fugue begins = with the Great 8 Principal 8 Gemshorn (it doesn't sound right without it = on!) 4, 2 and Mixture. The swell is the same 8-4-2 combo mentioned above. = The pedal is 16-16-8-4-16 Tpt plus the great to pedal coupler. = </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D3 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" = FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">I would be inclined (no surprise) to leave the = mixture off the fugue, saving it until the end. &nbsp;The fugue has a = nice, light texture and I think is much more enjoyable when not played too = heavily. &nbsp;&nbsp;The secondary manual should really be light and = sparkly -- my leaning being toward flutes 8 and 2, or somewhat goofy = sounds like 8 and 1, or even just a nice lone 4' flute. &nbsp;&nbsp;For = some reason, in these episodes I find that mutations make it too heavy and = complex, colour wise. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I would be very careful to keep = the pedal light, possibly using only an 8' reed (quiet), or even coupling = the secondary manual to the pedal for higher pitches. &nbsp;I once heard = this played using a 2' Zinc in the pedal and it was really great. = &nbsp;&nbsp;I would, however, also resist the temptation to get to loud = and heavy at the end and let the light, excitement carry through the = conclusion. It' <BR> <BR> <BR> Bruce Cornely &lt; Cremona502@cs.com &gt;<I> </I> <BR>with the Baskerbeagles in the Beagle's Nest ~ ""Haruffaroo, Bohawow!" <BR>Visit Howling Acres <I>&nbsp;</I>and meet the Baskerbeagles: = &nbsp;Duncan, Miles, Molly &amp; Dewi <BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt; &nbsp;http://members.tripod.com/Brucon502 = &gt;</FONT></HTML>   --part1_17c.23d86f2.297a0a23_boundary--  
(back) Subject: Re: quint couplers From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:49:22 -0600   TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Mr. Morgan: > That 5-1/3' Quint coupler on the Temple Sinai may or may not be = original. > Certainly, Skinner included Choir to Great 5-1/3' couplers in his = schemes > for Hill Auditorium and Woolsey Hall, yet these were enormous tonal = schemes. > Austin consoles from the late 1940s occasionally also had 5-1/3' = couplers > in their keybeds, an influence most likely coming from James B. Jamison, = a > controversial tonal theoretician of the time.   Moller also included 5.1/3' couplers in some of their instruments from around 1946, including the 4 manual at Zion Lutheran Church, Harrisburg, Pa. Coupled at 5.1/3' pitch, the Tierce produces a truly amazing effect! <g>   John Speller  
(back) Subject: Tuba Mirabilis 8' at Riverside NYC From: "STEVE BOURNIAS" <yfd4@hotmail.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 04:06:03 +0000       Any of the list members have any knowledge of the new tuba mirabilis at Riverside in NYC as to its particulars....builder,voicer,wind pressure,shallots construction,location in the organ and any other useful information? It is mentioned on the website of Riverside NYC as finally being installed after a long time.... Interested in Ohio   _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at = http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.    
(back) Subject: Re: quint couplers From: "douglas morgan" <dkmorgan76209@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:24:03 -0800 (PST)   Dear Mr. Speller:   I did see the original Skinner console for Temple Sinai of New Orleans. I do not recall seeing a 5 1/3' coupler. The 5 1/3' coupler I did see was on the Austin console that replaced the original Skinner.   The original console (Skinner) was a beautiful drawknob console, but the organist of the time wanted more pistons, so they bought this unfortunate replacement which does not have drawknobs, but has "horse teeth" type stopkeys. Plans are underway to try to secure a good Skinner console to use as this organ is hopefully to be restored shortly. Roy Redmon can tell you more about that.   D. Keith Morgan   --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> wrote: > TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > > > > Dear Mr. Morgan: > > That 5-1/3' Quint coupler on the Temple Sinai > may or may not be original. > > Certainly, Skinner included Choir to Great > 5-1/3' couplers in his schemes > > for Hill Auditorium and Woolsey Hall, yet these > were enormous tonal schemes. > > Austin consoles from the late 1940s > occasionally also had 5-1/3' couplers > > in their keybeds, an influence most likely coming > from James B. Jamison, a > > controversial tonal theoretician of the time. > > Moller also included 5.1/3' couplers in some of > their > instruments from around 1946, including the 4 manual > at Zion > Lutheran Church, Harrisburg, Pa. Coupled at 5.1/3' > pitch, > the Tierce produces a truly amazing effect! <g> > > John Speller > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital > organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org >     __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/